Pakistan’s lessons from India

[Gandhi G in da house]

Is Fauj historian trying to say that Pakistan was NOT a part of The Mughal empire and the British Indian empire ?

 

[livingdead]

Is Fauj historian trying to say that Pakistan was NOT a part of The Mughal empire and the British Indian empire ?

Well, its part of 'we are a warrier race, and are braver' theory, sadly history does not help the theory.

 

[livingdead]

self-delete

 

[neutral_person]

Let me first state at the get go that my hats of to Indian people for "trusting" their political system however flawed it has been.

With due respect, I beg to differ and say that OP makes a HUGE mistake when it says that Pakistan should do what India has done.

Why do I disagree with OP on this?

Well Indian political system is based on a malformed British-Indian political model that has very little resemblance to a true British democracy.

Instead British Indian system encourages feudal parties where most of the political parties become jagir of the family who took the lead role in the beginning. Thus most of the parties in India, BDesh, and Pakistan are personal fiefdoms and not true democratic parties.

thus the parties are given to sons and daughters as if they are a cheap piece of property or worse a diseased street walker.

No one and I mean no one within the party membership ever questions the "supreme" leader's stranglehold on the party. They remain one man or one woman show until the supreme leader dies or gets killed. Then a daughter or a son takes over and the process goes on an on.

This system a dead horse if you care for a moment to consider the true democratic ideals.

And as they say you can beat a dead horse for 100 years, it will remain "dead" no matter how much lashing you give.


Therefore when Pakistani politicians tried to ape the Indian system back in the 1940s and 50s, the system failed and failed miserably.

Considering the fragile situation in Pakistan, when army kicked these political mafioso, people took sigh of relief. However none of the intellectuals in Pakistan at least not the significant ones, ever tried to devise a true Pakistani system.

So we give chance to politicians every 10 years, falsely expecting that the dead horses will walk. And when they do not, we cry for the military to come back.

People say the system works for India, then why not Pakistan.

Well I don't want to denigrate my Indian friends, but Indian love to follow any system they get. Mogal gave them the system, they accepted it, British gave them the system, they accepted it. Single party Congress ruled for decades and Indians remained largely docile. This would have never worked in Pakistan. Never ever.

Why? because central Indians are like Chinese, they don't make much noise when a strong authority is in place. there are many reasons for this behavior, but perhaps one thing summarizes it. Indians and Chinese are "civilized" and they don't go too much against authority. How else vast regions and millions of Indians were ruled by British using only 3500 goras?

Pakistan being a "border" region has not been "civilized" and "Mellowed" and thus will not be governed by an Indian style party system. People will not respect it, and given a chance will shred it to pieces.

Sure some in Pakistan say that Khalifa Bhutto and his family could not deliver, so now we must have Khalifa Imran. But I tell you what, 2 years in Khalifa Imran's rule, the same people will be crying to get rid of him.


So you all may say that if British-Indian system won't work for Pak, then what?

Well you guys have to wait for part II of this essay.


Thank you.

See your point, but most of the things you said only applies to the Pakistani Pathans and maybe Balochis (don't know much about them, heard about them first time in this forum). Pakistani Punjab and Sindh (which is close to 80% of Pak Population) has been ruled by outsiders even more than India in general. India for the most part was ruled by Brits and Mughals. Pak on top of this was ruled by Iranians/Afghans. Part of the Iranian/Afghan territory did come into Northern and Western India, but Pakistan in general has had a more docile population (or at least equal to India) that can be ruled going by history.

 

[surya kiran]

Does it really matter who ruled and who was ruled. The point is who are better off. Fight and get your country destroyed totally or improve your overall scenario. The Afghans have been fighting and 'defeated a super power'. Big load of good its done them.

 

[FaujHistorian]

See your point, but most of the things you said only applies to the Pakistani Pathans and maybe Balochis (don't know much about them, heard about them first time in this forum). Pakistani Punjab and Sindh (which is close to 80% of Pak Population) has been ruled by outsiders even more than India in general. India for the most part was ruled by Brits and Mughals. Pak on top of this was ruled by Iranians/Afghans. Part of the Iranian/Afghan territory did come into Northern and Western India, but Pakistan in general has had a more docile population (or at least equal to India) that can be ruled going by history.

I beg to disagree with the word "docile". In my post the word used was "civilized" or "settled" at least.

Indians in their zeal to "understand" Pakistanis, tend to ignore the geography and history. Mughal rule FYI was limited to the very Eastern edge of the modern day Pakistan, pretty much along the famed GT road. You went 20 km away from it, and the general condition was much more tribal that became worse as you moved West.

Indians don't realize how lucky they are that Pakistan and India were separated in 1947. If it was Not done, there would have been a constant civil war. The scale of which could be at least 5 times Kashmir if not more.

There was a reason why Hindu leaders saw it first and then much later Muslim leaders that the border provinces forming modern day Pakistan cannot be "roped" in using the British-Indian party system. Haven't you guys read anything about general elections and home rules of 30s and 40s? Didn't you see the catastrophic bickering that destroyed all such efforts? Central Indians could never understand these tribal borderlands, and thus were at total loss all the time.

Just read the essays by Hindu leaders of 1910s and 20s. They were shouting to kick us out way back before any Muslim ever talked about separate country.

However the elementary school history books of both Indian and Pakistan do not mention it, so most of the posters on this forum do not even know about Hindu leaders who were the true philosophers of "separate" Pakistan.

As the people in these border regions are different, so too should be their political system.

And no my dear Indians, it is not Islam or some fancy racial theory that makes us different, it is the damned geography.


peace.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Is Fauj historian trying to say that Pakistan was NOT a part of The Mughal empire and the British Indian empire ?

Read my post #21, Mughal empire was limited to the immediate surrounding of GT road. This area forms a thin eastern edge of Pakistan.

And British always dreaded the thought of conquring Punjab. Why else they would sign treaties with Jamuna river as the border.

British had the shortest rule over modern day Pakistan. Again the reason are not purely racial, but also geographical.

peace.

Well, its part of 'we are a warrier race, and are braver' theory, sadly history does not help the theory.

No my dear poster, this racial theory is just a side show. The real reason is "geographic". Read my post #21.


peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

Does it really matter who ruled and who was ruled. The point is who are better off. Fight and get your country destroyed totally or improve your overall scenario. The Afghans have been fighting and 'defeated a super power'. Big load of good its done them.

My dear poster, India was a cesspool of poverty until it got into American business camp. And you guys were ruled by the malformed British-Indian jagiri parties.

Pakistan was a model economy in 50s and 60s because we were in American business camp. And we were ruled by the so-called self-styled field marshal.

Nothing surprising here. let me give you another example.

China too was a cesspool of commie poverty, until it got into American business camp.

So what defines "we are better off"? Not a malformed British-Indian jagiri party system, but being in the American business camp.

This is why Chinese are doing 1000 time better than Indians because they are much more active members of the Western aka global business.

Should we then try to ape Chinese party system?

So my Indian brothers. Think. Think. Think before you post about things you do not understand. And if you do post something, and get corrected, then accept the other guy's point. No need to have arguments back and forth.

Coming back to the topic, I do have hope for Pakistan. I have to. as a Pakistani.

Many Indians fail to see that Pakistan could have easily become Cambodia. Just read a bit and you will realize that TTP is no different from Khmer Rouge and it is not some Islamic force, just a bunch of anarchists.

We have seen three fing wars next door going all the way back to 70s.

It is a miracle that we have survived so far.

And then I see some Indian posters who have not studied history beyond elementary school, come on Pakistani forums and give us some half eaten, regurgitated, self-styled pious lectures.

And I say that's a shame for otherwise superior in education people.


peace

 

[RiazHaq]

The author argues that "excessive intervention by the state, as practised during the Nehru years, resulted in the economy growing at a rate much lower than its potential".

No economy in the world has more state intervention than China’s. And yet, China has been the world’s fastest growing economy for over two decades.

Haq's Musings: BRIC, Chindia and the Indian Miracle

 

[surya kiran]

My dear poster, India was a cesspool of poverty until it got into American business camp. And you guys were ruled by the malformed British-Indian jagiri parties.

Pakistan was a model economy in 50s and 60s because we were in American business camp. And we were ruled by the so-called self-styled field marshal.

Nothing surprising here. let me give you another example.

China too was a cesspool of commie poverty, until it got into American business camp.

So what defines "we are better off"? Not a malformed British-Indian jagiri party system, but being in the American business camp.

This is why Chinese are doing 1000 time better than Indians because they are much more active members of the Western aka global business.

Should we then try to ape Chinese party system?

So my Indian brothers. Think. Think. Think before you post about things you do not understand. And if you do post something, and get corrected, then accept the other guy's point. No need to have arguments back and forth.

Coming back to the topic, I do have hope for Pakistan. I have to. as a Pakistani.

Many Indians fail to see that Pakistan could have easily become Cambodia. Just read a bit and you will realize that TTP is no different from Khmer Rouge and it is not some Islamic force, just a bunch of anarchists.

We have seen three fing wars next door going all the way back to 70s.

It is a miracle that we have survived so far.

And then I see some Indian posters who have not studied history beyond elementary school, come on Pakistani forums and give us some half eaten, regurgitated, self-styled pious lectures.

And I say that's a shame for otherwise superior in education people.


peace

Nobody gets into any camp. Countries re-prioritise and work to get their people out of poverty. Go and check figures and statistics before commenting on topics. On a historical note, Pakistan and India are concepts born post 1947. India is a concept post 1857. All countries have been ruled or have ruled. Pakistan was a model economy, yes. What happened? Don't say you got out of this camp and went into that camp. The priorities got messed up. And somebody forgot to look after their own.

The Chinese have done a brilliant job with their economy. It really does not make a difference how you got there. The point is they got there. Now they are getting in a position of strength. Nobody is suggesting to copy or ape any system. The moot point is what are you going to do about it? Keep blaming the rest of the world or clean house. Keep fighting and talking of honour while the rest of the world keeps stripping your honour or stick your head down and get out of the mess. So my dear friend. Think think think.

 

[FaujHistorian]

.....Pakistan was a model economy, yes. What happened? Don't say you got out of this camp and went into that camp. The priorities got messed up. And somebody forgot to look after their own......

Simple! We got hit by the commies. OK Islamo-socialism to be more precise.

And then they say the rest is history.

Talking of history, you should be proud of yours. Why to become so defensive?

It is a fact written all across the board that India was in the commie camp and it suffered economically.

When Commie Soviet died, Indian changed direction and joined the American camp. Now what's wrong with that.

In fact this is what I say to fellow Pakistanis, copy Indians and Chinese and work hard to provide services and products to America. Then we will be rich too.

There is no shame in hard work my dear. No shame,


peace