Pakistan and India linked with Eurofighter….

[Neo]

Even if the EF is ordered by KSA and Turkey and the price goes down it still will drain our limited financial resources.
Awacs and Air Refueling/Tankers need more funds and we've to expand our heavy lift capacity.
We have to look into cheaper options like FC-20 rather than EF-2000.

Btw, is it feasible to order 18 EF-2000's only?
Just curious.

 

[Quwa]

Btw, is it feasible to order 18 EF-2000's only?
Just curious.

Well there are likely no EFs in AFFDP-2019; a plan beyond the 2019 plan - well that is anybody's guess.

 

[Neo]

BY 2019 our GDP is expected to be somewhere between $350-400 billion if the current growth is sustained.
At that time China may fly the J-XX.
Do we still need it??

 

[Adnan88]

well i have my reasons for disliking the chinese... also to tell u the truth, im not a pakistani patriot, im not too optimistic about the nationalist ideas... infact, nationalism is haram... and bare with me because there is a point im trying to make.. u see, most of u have probably heard of a chinese province name Xinjiang(also known as east turkistan)... people who live in that province are called uyghurs and they are muslims... the chinese gov't oppresses them... its pretty much like what we see happening in israel and palestine... also, u know the real reason china is sticking with us is because of india... not that i have an affinity for hindu run gov't, matter of fact i have no respect for them...

and let me point out one of the verses from surah al imran...
verse 18

"do not make bitanah(friends, helpers, advisors etc.) with those outside of your religion because they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you and guide you to the wrong path"
now by looking back to what happened in 2001 when mushy boy decided to jump in the US coalition banwagon, a lot of muslims died in afghanistan and even in pakistan... now i know what most of u will say, "if we didnt go along, we would get bombed by the US"... well let me ask u something, Who do u fear, Allah(SWT) or the army of shaytaan? iraqs struggle is our struggle, afghanistans struggle is our struggle, palestines struggle is our struggle, lebanons struggle is our struggle.. we are all muslim brothers, we have to be there for each other... all we do is care about ourselves these days... this is why nationalism is haram and i hope most of u realize it... though i will always support muslim nations like pakistan and iran during hardship, i will also criticise their failure to bring unity amongst muslims.. and this is why we are behind right now... theres no unity, there is no khilafah, there is no islamic state.. but there are some so called islamic states... anyways, i just hope for unity between muslims and one land for all of us where race doesnt matter, only our faith matters... our neighbors can be white black yellow brown etc. thats what i call an islamic state

 

[waz]

well i have my reasons for disliking the chinese... also to tell u the truth, im not a pakistani patriot, im not too optimistic about the nationalist ideas... infact, nationalism is haram... and bare with me because there is a point im trying to make.. u see, most of u have probably heard of a chinese province name Xinjiang(also known as east turkistan)... people who live in that province are called uyghurs and they are muslims... the chinese gov't oppresses them... its pretty much like what we see happening in israel and palestine... also, u know the real reason china is sticking with us is because of india... not that i have an affinity for hindu run gov't, matter of fact i have no respect for them...

and let me point out one of the verses from surah al imran...
verse 18

"do not make bitanah(friends, helpers, advisors etc.) with those outside of your religion because they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you and guide you to the wrong path"
now by looking back to what happened in 2001 when mushy boy decided to jump in the US coalition banwagon, a lot of muslims died in afghanistan and even in pakistan... now i know what most of u will say, "if we didnt go along, we would get bombed by the US"... well let me ask u something, Who do u fear, Allah(SWT) or the army of shaytaan? iraqs struggle is our struggle, afghanistans struggle is our struggle, palestines struggle is our struggle, lebanons struggle is our struggle.. we are all muslim brothers, we have to be there for each other... all we do is care about ourselves these days... this is why nationalism is haram and i hope most of u realize it... though i will always support muslim nations like pakistan and iran during hardship, i will also criticise their failure to bring unity amongst muslims.. and this is why we are behind right now... theres no unity, there is no khilafah, there is no islamic state.. but there are some so called islamic states... anyways, i just hope for unity between muslims and one land for all of us where race doesnt matter, only our faith matters... our neighbors can be white black yellow brown etc. thats what i call an islamic state

Bro I have met Chinese Muslims many times and this includes Ughiurs and the comparison you draw to Palestine is incorrect. Of late the Chinese government has gone out of it’s way to accommodate the Turkic people of the Xinjiang region this includes being exempt from many policies that ordinary Han Chinese have to adhere to like the one child policy. They have pumped billions into the region and better the lives of the people there and also bring them into the running of local administrations.

Do you know they have Muslim holiday tours to the region? I know plenty who have gone from here in England and said the situation is different from what you hear in the Western press. Also the problems seem to be with the Turkic people the Han Chinese Muslims have no such grievances and are to be seen up and down the nation in every position imaginable. Most political experts agree that the negativity that you do get at times is mostly because they are of a different ethnic group than their Han brothers. But anyhow the situation has vastly improved and let’s not forget that China commemorates its Muslims who have made their mark in history like the legendry admiral Zheng He who transformed China into a Navel power.

Anyhow this is going off topic and should be kept for another thread.

 

[waz]

Even if the EF is ordered by KSA and Turkey and the price goes down it still will drain our limited financial resources.
Awacs and Air Refueling/Tankers need more funds and we've to expand our heavy lift capacity.
We have to look into cheaper options like FC-20 rather than EF-2000.

Btw, is it feasible to order 18 EF-2000's only?
Just curious.

The refuelling craft are relatively cheap bro and the AWACS apart from our Swedish system would also be cost effective so it can be bought in great numbers.

Yes it is feasible to order them in a squadron of that number as they would act as force multipliers and can be used for specific roles that do not require large numbers of combat craft.

 

[Janbaz]

Right on Waz bro

 

[Quwa]

The current outlook is;
36 F-10A
36 F-16C/D Block 52+ (assuming option is excersized)
60 F-16A/B MLU-3
150 JF-17
6 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
4 IL-78 Air-to-Air Refueling aircraft

The PAF will procure more F-10As - at least another squadron (18?); 300 4th generation fighters backed by at least six AEW&C systems (Erieye) would be very lethal to deal with - for any air force.

1) The PAF would have a mix of BVRAAMs - AIM-120C5, SD-10 and maybe even R-/T-Darter/MICA; as well as an array of imported and local precision-guided munitions.

2) One of JF-17's project directors said HMS/HMD will find its way on JF-17 - with Infra-Red-Search and Track (IRST) and air-to-air refueling capability. The Chinese will definitely come up with some HMS/HMD system for F-10A - its poised to be their main workhorse; otherwise the PAF would add the same HMS on F-10A as it did on JF-17.

3) I think the PAF will eventually procure a JCHMS combination WVRAAM for F-16 and HMS combo for JF-17 and F-10A; IRIS-T and AIM-9X are possible options for F-16 - while A-Darter and PL-9C for JF-17 and F-10A. Such combos would be lethal against any enemy.

4) F-16s will be equipped with Link 16 datalink; if U.S would provide Link 16, what could stop Europe from supplying Link 22 (supposed to be compatible with Link 16) to Pakistan? In any case, the whole of PAF's 4th generation fleet will be datalinked with Erieye and possibly the Chinese Y-8 AEW&C.

Just exactly how many air forces are out there in the 3rd world that could match up against 300 4th generation aircraft equipped with top of the line or up-to-date equipment and backed by at least 6 AEW&C systems? The only way the PAF would be prompted to procure more F-16 Block 52+ and/or something else which is more expensive is if the IAF decides to blow a solid 10-12bn USD on their 126 MRCAs.

Guys, by the time these 300 4th generation aircraft and Erieye are in service - exactly how many 4th generation aircraft could the IAF have? We are talking 2015-2016 at the latest; the way things are going, there is now way the IAF's MRCA could be in full-fledged service and no way the IAF could have all 190 MKIs. The numerical ratio between IAF and PAF in terms of 4th generation aircraft would be less than 2:1 (IAF's favour). That would be further negated by Pakistan's smaller geographically size - 1/3 of India's.

IAF would have to really dish out cash in order to prompt PAF to think about 4.5 generation aircraft before China rolls one out.

 

[waz]

The current outlook is;
36 F-10A
36 F-16C/D Block 52+ (assuming option is excersized)
60 F-16A/B MLU-3
150 JF-17
6 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
4 IL-78 Air-to-Air Refueling aircraft

The PAF will procure more F-10As - at least another squadron (18?); 300 4th generation fighters backed by at least six AEW&C systems (Erieye) would be very lethal to deal with - for any air force.

1) The PAF would have a mix of BVRAAMs - AIM-120C5, SD-10 and maybe even R-/T-Darter/MICA; as well as an array of imported and local precision-guided munitions.

2) One of JF-17's project directors said HMS/HMD will find its way on JF-17 - with Infra-Red-Search and Track (IRST) and air-to-air refueling capability. The Chinese will definitely come up with some HMS/HMD system for F-10A - its poised to be their main workhorse; otherwise the PAF would add the same HMS on F-10A as it did on JF-17.

3) I think the PAF will eventually procure a JCHMS combination WVRAAM for F-16 and HMS combo for JF-17 and F-10A; IRIS-T and AIM-9X are possible options for F-16 - while A-Darter and PL-9C for JF-17 and F-10A. Such combos would be lethal against any enemy.

4) F-16s will be equipped with Link 16 datalink; if U.S would provide Link 16, what could stop Europe from supplying Link 22 (supposed to be compatible with Link 16) to Pakistan? In any case, the whole of PAF's 4th generation fleet will be datalinked with Erieye and possibly the Chinese Y-8 AEW&C.

Just exactly how many air forces are out there in the 3rd world that could match up against 300 4th generation aircraft equipped with top of the line or up-to-date equipment and backed by at least 6 AEW&C systems? The only way the PAF would be prompted to procure more F-16 Block 52+ and/or something else which is more expensive is if the IAF decides to blow a solid 10-12bn USD on their 126 MRCAs.

Guys, by the time these 300 4th generation aircraft and Erieye are in service - exactly how many 4th generation aircraft could the IAF have? We are talking 2015-2016 at the latest; the way things are going, there is now way the IAF's MRCA could be in full-fledged service and no way the IAF could have all 190 MKIs. The numerical ratio between IAF and PAF in terms of 4th generation aircraft would be less than 2:1 (IAF's favour). That would be further negated by Pakistan's smaller geographically size - 1/3 of India's.

IAF would have to really dish out cash in order to prompt PAF to think about 4.5 generation aircraft before China rolls one out.

That is a nice assessment bro but I’d like to take up some of your points in bold. With regards to India spending vast sums of money on its MRCA project this is in no doubt. Yes they have been pondering over it for a while and dragging their feet but their Air force is up in arms over the modernisation program of the PAF and is bringing down heavy pressure on the government to come up with results. I’m pretty sure we will see the choice of jet and the signing of the contract soon which I believe will be the Super Hornet. Boeing, the principle entity behind the Hornet is heavily marketing itself to the Indian defence industry of which they already have ties and the Hornet itself is the best “bang for buck” they can get like we did with the F-16 deal. The craft also fits in with their operational requirements especially in relation to their large Navy.

As for how many aircraft they will have they already have made initial obligations to buy 40 used Mirage 2000 craft on top of the 53 they already have. The Mig 29’s they posses which are a fleet of 63 will receive reinforcements of 16 MiG-29K from the admiral Gorshkov and all would be of SMT stock. Although the upgrade program for them is behind 2 years it is still going on. You then have their fleet of MKI’s which would be totalling 190 and I believe they will be in service as the assembly has been handed over back to Russia after HAL were taking far too much time. Add to this their 125 MRCA contract you will have 487 4th generation craft that are very capable.

In light of this a small squad of Typhoons would easily balance out the equation and more than likely tip things in our favour. I don’t see the Indians picking 4.5 generation craft as they are so expensive and especially in the numbers they want and secondly they are after the bang for the buck ticket. You are right about the ratio but I still feel we lack the answer to their MRCA program when it comes about. If the PAF went ahead with this purchase we would not have a thing to worry about for at least 15 years when the Chinese will be rolling out a top of the range 5th generation craft.

 

[Janbaz]

I have a question?
Does MLU enable F-16's to carry more advanced weaponry than today. I know the radar aspect i think.

 

[Quwa]

I have a question?
Does MLU enable F-16's to carry more advanced weaponry than today. I know the radar aspect i think.

Yes, the F-16A/B MLU3 is capable of utilizing AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, AIM-9X, IRIS-T, JDAM, etc. The MLU3 has the same radar and avionics as Block 52+.

 

[Janbaz]

Thanks Mark Sien bro

 

[Iceman2]

i wanted to know which radar would be used in Paf f-16 what r its specifications????

 

[ST1976]

The current outlook is;
36 F-10A
36 F-16C/D Block 52+ (assuming option is excersized)
60 F-16A/B MLU-3
150 JF-17
6 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
4 IL-78 Air-to-Air Refueling aircraft

The PAF will procure more F-10As - at least another squadron (18?); 300 4th generation fighters backed by at least six AEW&C systems (Erieye) would be very lethal to deal with - for any air force.

1) The PAF would have a mix of BVRAAMs - AIM-120C5, SD-10 and maybe even R-/T-Darter/MICA; as well as an array of imported and local precision-guided munitions.

2) One of JF-17's project directors said HMS/HMD will find its way on JF-17 - with Infra-Red-Search and Track (IRST) and air-to-air refueling capability. The Chinese will definitely come up with some HMS/HMD system for F-10A - its poised to be their main workhorse; otherwise the PAF would add the same HMS on F-10A as it did on JF-17.

3) I think the PAF will eventually procure a JCHMS combination WVRAAM for F-16 and HMS combo for JF-17 and F-10A; IRIS-T and AIM-9X are possible options for F-16 - while A-Darter and PL-9C for JF-17 and F-10A. Such combos would be lethal against any enemy.

4) F-16s will be equipped with Link 16 datalink; if U.S would provide Link 16, what could stop Europe from supplying Link 22 (supposed to be compatible with Link 16) to Pakistan? In any case, the whole of PAF's 4th generation fleet will be datalinked with Erieye and possibly the Chinese Y-8 AEW&C.

Just exactly how many air forces are out there in the 3rd world that could match up against 300 4th generation aircraft equipped with top of the line or up-to-date equipment and backed by at least 6 AEW&C systems? The only way the PAF would be prompted to procure more F-16 Block 52+ and/or something else which is more expensive is if the IAF decides to blow a solid 10-12bn USD on their 126 MRCAs.

Guys, by the time these 300 4th generation aircraft and Erieye are in service - exactly how many 4th generation aircraft could the IAF have? We are talking 2015-2016 at the latest; the way things are going, there is now way the IAF's MRCA could be in full-fledged service and no way the IAF could have all 190 MKIs. The numerical ratio between IAF and PAF in terms of 4th generation aircraft would be less than 2:1 (IAF's favour). That would be further negated by Pakistan's smaller geographically size - 1/3 of India's.

IAF would have to really dish out cash in order to prompt PAF to think about 4.5 generation aircraft before China rolls one out.

as far as i know, by 2015-16, india will have atleast 200 MKIs (4.5 generation) as their production rate has been proposed to increase, atleast 100 of this 126 MRCAs (4.5 genaration) as the deal is to be finalised by march 2007, no less than 120-140 HAL Tejas "LCA" (4.0 generation) as their production wil start from 2008 with a speed of atleast 18-20 per year as they are very cheap to produce, and also india is going to buy 40 second hand Mirajs (4 generation). this way, by 2015-16 the seen will be something like this:

1. when comparing 4.5 generation aircrafts:

India's 200MKIs+100 MRCAs = 300, against pakisnat's 36 blk 52s+36 J-10s = 72

2. and when comparing 4.0 generation aircrafts:

India's 120 LCAs + 40 Mirajs + others expected purchase = 200, against about Pakistan's total JF-17 = 150

(with 66 British HAWK Jet Trainer and many other air defence systems if you consider them also for comparision)

and also there will be a continuous production of 4.5 generation aircrafts in india even after 2015-16, that is MKIs + MRCAs (as its technology will also be transfered to india like MKIs).

i think if you want to think after 2015-16, then i may say only "4.5 generation aircrafts" will be said to be quality aircrafts that time and it's ratio between india and pakistan will be about 300:72 or atleast around 4:1 in favour of india, with continuous home production of MKIs and MRCAs even after 2015-16.

on other side india will have upgraded her old aircrafts (Migs, Mirajs, Jaguar etc.)also.

 

[Quwa]

as far as i know, by 2015-16, india will have atleast 200 MKIs (4.5 generation) as their production rate has been proposed to increase, atleast 100 of this 126 MRCAs (4.5 genaration) as the deal is to be finalised by march 2007, no less than 120-140 HAL Tejas "LCA" (4.0 generation) as their production wil start from 2008 with a speed of atleast 18-20 per year as they are very cheap to produce, and also india is going to buy 40 second hand Mirajs (4 generation). this way, by 2015-16 the seen will be something like this:

Update your information; there is no way the IAF would have at least 200 MKIs by 2015-2016 - especially considering the fact that it just transfered production to Russia. It will take Russia a little while to gear up for production - and remember it took India eight years to induct its first 40 Su-30MKs. Russia will take its sweet time - as long as it can deliver the Flankers quicker than India would. The IAF will not have 200 Su-30MKIs before 2019-2020; by 2015 it could have about 140 at best. However the J-10 is poised as a potent air superiority platform; and in an AEW&C environment it will be able to match up against Su-30MKI - the PAF will have a lot more F-10As than 36 - more like 54-72 IMO. This will be coupled against 36 F-16C/D Block 52+ and at least 60 F-16A/B MLU3; the F-10As, F-16s and even JF-17 in an AEW&C environment can match up against Su-30MKI.

Currently the LCA is set for production sometime in 2010 - and the IAF has no firm orders for it; let alone 120-140 you projected. If the LCA is indeed ordered by IAF - expect 80-100 at best. The IAF is likely to have an additional 40 or so Mirage 2000s and upgrade its fleet to Mk2 standard. That would put them on Block 52+ standard (avionically); but what is not to say that IAF's 100+ Mirage 2000-5Mk2s will not be countered by additional used F-16s upgraded avionically to Block 52+ standards? The PAF can procure used F-16A/B/C/D frames for free and simply pay for the upgrades.

With regards to the MRCA; the IAF has yet to even choose the fighter - let alone negotiate and get it approved by their government. Even if IAF chose the fighter in 2007, it would take at least a year to negotiate and sign it; then it will take at least 3 years after 2008 to induct. Given the fact that India wants to produce the fighters at home - it will take time to produce local production facillities and what not; the IAF will at best have 40-50 by 2015. The MRCA could be considered as a higher tier 4th generation fighter - since it will be on the level of Block 52+; but what is not to say that PAF will reinforce its F-10A and Block 52+ fleets?

Neither India nor Pakistan will have 4.5 generation fighters; F-16 Block 52+, Su-30MKI, F-10A, F-16A/B MLU3 and Mirage 2000-5Mk2 could be considered as higher-tier 4th generation aircraft. While LCA and JF-17 would be lower-tier 4th generation aircraft; but the JF-17 is poised to cross that threshold if it is equipped with AESA, more advanced avionics and better weapon systems. The way the JF-17 has evolved from its original form - I would not discount it.

And do NOT forget the fact that IAF cannot concentrate its entire fighter force against PAF - whereas PAF can do so against IAF.

A 4.5 generation fighter would be Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, and J-10C/Super J-10; neither of which IAF nor PAF is poised to procure by 2015.