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Pakistan and Copper

VCheng

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I found this article relevant given reports of large Pakistani reserves of this important metal. Whatever reserves are present, if developed properly, copper can give Pakistan an economic boost.

Copper: Red bull | The Economist

Copper
Red bull
The world’s most informative metal

Sep 24th 2011 | from the print edition

The locked doors of a public library in West Norwood, a drab part of south London, are an unlikely economic indicator. But a plaintive note explaining the closure—thieves have stripped the roof of its copper cladding, letting in rain on the books below—hints at profound changes to the global economy. And copper is the metal most intimately affected.

Police in London note a close correlation between thefts like the one in West Norwood and global commodities markets. Around the world, copper crimes have soared along with its price. Filched cables have reportedly caused train delays and stalled repairs to telecoms networks. Heating boilers, pipes and air-conditioners have been ransacked. Criminals are clearly sensitive to the gyrations of the global economy. Copper is reckoned to go one better: it earned its moniker of “Dr Copper” for its supposed ability as an economic forecaster. The metal’s price movements are widely believed to prefigure shifts in the world economy.

The theory looks compelling. Copper’s excellent conduction of electricity and heat means that it is used not only to cable and pipe the globe. An average car contains over 25kg of copper; electronic gadgets, from PCs to mobile phones, use copper for wiring and contacts. Its ubiquity means that rising demand should provide an early indication of an uptick in manufacturing and construction. Copper sagged in the early stages of the credit crisis, for example, and then started to pick up at the end of 2008, some months before the stockmarket began to rebound. Such prescience is now cause for concern. As fears of a double-dip recession mount copper has slumped to a ten-month low.

Copper is less sensitive to the ups and downs of rich-world economies than it was, however. For that, blame China. In 2003, before the full weight of China’s tearaway economy became apparent, copper traded at below $2,000 a tonne. It hit $10,000 a tonne earlier this year, before falling back to $8,400 a tonne now. Such is the scale of China’s urbanisation and industrialisation, both of which require plentiful supplies of the metal, that it consumes at least 40% (and by some reckonings 50%) of global output of around 16m tonnes in 2010. Global demand for copper is expected to rise by more than 40% to 27m tonnes by 2020.

Copper is not alone in feeling the effect of China on demand. But the metal is something of a touchstone on the supply side, too. Nearly a decade into China’s rampant commodity-buying spree the bosses of the big mining companies are starting to talk about the growing problems getting all manner of minerals out of the ground. Copper best illustrates the issues they face.

There are few sizeable new deposits in copper’s heartlands in North and South America and Australia. Annual production at Escondida in Chile, the world’s biggest copper mine, peaked at around 1.5m tonnes in 2007. The only new mine that comes close is Rio Tinto’s Oyu Tolgoi in Mongolia, which will start commercial production in 2013 and may eventually produce half that amount.

New copper supply is going to be increasingly dependent on smaller mines that are deeper underground and have lower ore grades. As Gayle Berry of Barclays Capital notes, these mines will also mainly be in riskier parts of the world, such as Africa’s copper belt, stretching across Zambia and Congo. The Chinese have a mine in Afghanistan. The lack of vital infrastructure such as roads, railways, power and water, and the ever-lengthening process of getting mining permits, will make the newer mines far more costly.

This bodes ill for future supply. Lead times for new projects, once four to five years, have crept up to between seven and eight years. Wringing extra copper out of existing mines has its difficulties too. Miners dig in the better parts of mines first. As older mines get deeper, ore grades decline and extraction becomes more expensive. The disruption rate (the amount of promised copper that fails to materialise), about 2% five years ago, is now as high as 8%, according to Andrew Keen of HSBC. These difficulties and the buoyant price of iron ore and coal, which can be mined far more easily, have led the world’s biggest diversified miners to favour those commodities when allocating investment.

Copper prices are also likely to stay high because of the lack of good substitutes. West Norwood library’s roof repairs are dragging on because of arguments over a suitable replacement for the copper, for instance. Michael Widmer of Bank of America Merrill Lynch reckons that the current price is probably high enough to spur serious efforts to find alternatives. But most of the easy substitution has already been done. The world’s plumbers have switched to plastic piping where they can. Chinese boffins have engineered air-conditioning units with (bulkier) aluminium heat exchangers.

Aluminium can also be used for electric cables but much more has to be used for the same effect. It is no use for increasingly miniature electronic devices. And the connections are nowhere near as good as copper. A drive to wire 2m American homes with aluminium in the 1970s led to several burning down because of sparking from poor connections—building codes now ban aluminium from most domestic wiring. Many utilities are simply not interested in changing their cabling: it would require all their engineers to retrain.

In the short term copper prices may drift lower as growth slows in America and Europe. But high prices have encouraged destocking in China and those stocks will eventually need replenishing. Over the long term the fundamentals have most analysts convinced that high prices are here to stay. Dr Copper may no longer be as good at taking the temperature of Western economies. But it speaks volumes about the effect of China on the world.

from the print edition | Finance and economics
 
So, have you taken a U-turn from your stance on the other thread that unless not exploited, nothing exists?
 
So, have you taken a U-turn from your stance on the other thread that unless not exploited, nothing exists?

No, my stance is entirely consistent: Unless exploited, whatever reserves of copper Pakistan has, will be of no benefit to the population, and thus might as well be non-existent.

Please note that the article mentions that China has a copper mine in Afghanistan, and Pakistan as a potential source is not mentioned at all. Also, note the long lead time of about 7-8 years from start of a project and final production.
 
No, my stance is entirely consistent: Unless exploited, whatever reserves of copper Pakistan has, will be of no benefit to the population, and thus might as well be non-existent.

Please note that the article mentions that China has a copper mine in Afghanistan, and Pakistan as a potential source is not mentioned at all. Also, note the long lead time of about 7-8 years from start of a project and final production.

These kind of projects do take time, as well as Power projects.

So , let me get it straight, you do believe that we have good amount of resources, but think that unless dug out and used, they are of no importance?

That is my stance too. Either do something to get it, or shut up saying it all the time.

Always thought you were in denial that Pakistan had these resources.
 
These kind of projects do take time, as well as Power projects.

So , let me get it straight, you do believe that we have good amount of resources, but think that unless dug out and used, they are of no importance?

That is my stance too. Either do something to get it, or shut up saying it all the time.

Always thought you were in denial that Pakistan had these resources.

Pakistan's copper deposit is not as big as it is made out to be on this forum.

---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

No, my stance is entirely consistent: Unless exploited, whatever reserves of copper Pakistan has, will be of no benefit to the population, and thus might as well be non-existent.

Please note that the article mentions that China has a copper mine in Afghanistan, and Pakistan as a potential source is not mentioned at all. Also, note the long lead time of about 7-8 years from start of a project and final production.

4.5 years for Riqo Diq according to the feasibility report, but needs 3.5 Billion USD investment. And not every one is keen to put that sorta of money in Pakistan just yet.
 
......................

Always thought you were in denial that Pakistan had these resources.

No, I have always said that there are some reserves, but not a huge as some say they are, just like what Roy says below:

Pakistan's copper deposit is not as big as it is made out to be on this forum.

4.5 years for Riqo Diq according to the feasibility report, but needs 3.5 Billion USD investment. And not every one is keen to put that sorta of money in Pakistan just yet.

The article says that lead times are getting longer, and 4.5 years for Pakistan would be very ambitious indeed. What year was the feasibility report finalized that you mention?
 
See post number 7, not extraordinary, as being claimed by some over enthusiastic, but substantial.
 
The article says that lead times are getting longer, and 4.5 years for Pakistan would be very ambitious indeed. What year was the feasibility report finalized that you mention?

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the mine development phase, which is 4-5 years for this project. So that plus the lead time, which means that if they approve the project today, it will take about 11-13 years for the production to start.

Feasibility report is from last year.
 
Sorry, I thought you were referring to the mine development phase, which is 4-5 years for this project. So that plus the lead time, which means that if they approve the project today, it will take about 11-13 years for the production to start.

Feasibility report is from last year.

11-13 years is a bit more on the long side. 8 years is more plausible.
 
This article is important for several reasons. Firstly, China already
has a huge supply of copper on its doorstep and this will affect its
interest in Pakistani copper mines if they can be developed. Secondly,
it gives an idea of just how long and arduous the process of
developing large scale mines can be, more so in a challenging
geopolitical environment.

from: Mongolian copper: Halfway to where? | The Economist



Mongolian copper
Halfway to where?
A massive mining project hits a snag

Oct 8th 2011 | OYU TOLGOI | from the print edition

They found a thrill under Turquoise Hill

IN THE endless brown wastes of the Gobi desert in the south of
Mongolia huge blue structures are springing up. Some 18,000 workers
are employed on Oyu Tolgoi, or “Turquoise Hill”, the largest
undeveloped copper and gold mine in the world. Rio Tinto, the mining
giant that is managing the project, flew its chairman, Jan du Plessis,
to the site for a ceremony on September 25th to mark the halfway point
of the first phase of construction.
Celebrations were hardly marred by
rumblings of discontent back in the capital, Ulaanbaatar, from
Mongolian politicians. But since then the rumblings have got louder,
worrying not just Oyu Tolgoi’s investors, but all those gleeful at the
prospect of a prolonged mining-led boom in the country.

A group of 20 members of parliament signed a petition in early
September asking the government to reopen negotiations on the 2009
“Investment Agreement” that set the $10 billion project in motion.
That could be dismissed as populist political noise ahead of elections
due next year. But by the end of the month, it had become the basis of
a formal request from the government to Ivanhoe Mines of Canada, which
has a 66% stake in the company that owns the mine and is in turn 49%
owned by Rio. Opening parliament this week, the speaker, who sits on
the National Security Council, voiced his support for a renegotiation.

The main demand is to bring forward the date when the government has
the option to increase its 34% share in the project to 50%. At
present, its share—which was financed by a loan from Rio—cannot rise
until 2040. The government also wants to impose a “sliding-scale
royalty” on the project. This week, Ivanhoe and Rio shot back a letter
saying the agreement was not up for renegotiation. All they will
concede is that, under its terms, the government is within its rights
to ask for talks. They are adamant, however, that the terms cannot be
changed.

The mining companies point out the huge benefits the project brings in
terms of employment, tax revenue and foreign exchange. By 2020, when
it will be producing 450,000 tonnes of copper a year, which will be
sold across the nearby Chinese border, it is expected to account for a
staggering one-third of Mongolia’s GDP.
They also argue that, with the
copper price falling, a renegotiation might leave the government in a
worse position. The current agreement has the effect of insuring its
equity stake against market risk. The investors feel some Mongolians
do not understand that, because of taxes and royalties, the
government’s 34% share grossly understates the benefits it will
receive from the project.

Oyu Tolgoi is the poster project for a national mining boom that sees
Ulaanbaatar crawling with foreign miners and their investment bankers.
Of immediate concern are plans to raise billions of dollars through a
multinational offering of shares in a huge coal project, Tavan Tolgoi,
also in South Gobi province.

Oyu Tolgoi already faces problems enough. Inter-governmental
negotiations with China have yet to produce an agreement on its supply
of power for the early years of production. Ivanhoe has been snapping
at Rio for making “unauthorised remarks” about the project, and there
is the small matter of $4 billion in bank finance to be raised.

So the government needed a face-saving way out of the latest fine mess
it had gotten the project into. On October 6th it issued a joint
statement with the foreign partners saying they had settled their
differences, without amending the Investment Agreement. Rio and
Ivanhoe will be relieved. But it will still have to deal with the
disgruntled parliamentarians, not to mention voters.

from the print edition | Business
 
So someone please explain to me how and why China would be interested in Pakistan resources of copper with the world's largest mine at their doorstep already, as indicated above?
 
So someone please explain to me how and why China would be interested in Pakistan resources of copper with the world's largest mine at their doorstep already, as indicated above?

Diversify supply and to try and keep prices down, only having one supplier puts the supplier in a powerful bargaining position.
 
Diversify supply and to try and keep prices down, only having one supplier puts the supplier in a powerful bargaining position.

Let's see: One supplier next door, stable politically, and with low shipping costs, online now.

Another supplier: Long distance, politically unstable, will require billions of dollars to come online in 7-12 years.

The second supplier is no more than a potential choice, and not a very good one at that.
 
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