PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[Zabaniyah]

No not really in all cases.

In most cases.

Flying and Flying better is still the most important Factor today.... If it were not to be there then why waste money on fancy designs and structures.... arm a B-52 with 100s of AAMs.

I didn't say the aerodynamic factor should be completely ignored. It isn't the most important factor today.

Don't understand why can't Su 30MKI do a BVR engagement equally good If not better when it has got Larger Radar(with longer range)...i.e. ESA with rear facing radars also... stand off weapons, AMRAAMs.... BVRAAM... ECM, Jammers (which have been credited with jamming F-15 radars of IDF-AF)...

I didn't say the MKI isn't BVR capable. You were saying that the MKI has superior aerodynamic characteristics compared to the F-15, which is true. And this is mainly important in close-in dog fights. But then, it can be said that dodging the latest IR A2A missiles is difficult. For the most part, ECMs and flares would be used to counter such threats, which the MKI has. As long as the jet can perform the job in close in dog fights, then it is fine. And generally speaking, Russian jets are superior in this aspect.

I think they were training with old IDF F-15s.

About the scope of development... It does not take a genius to see which aircraft has more variants the Su 30 or the F-15... functioning in different airforces around the world and and under development in different aviation industries around the world.

That's for the customization according to end-user requirements. That doesn't automatically mean that the SU-30 is overall technologically superior to the F-15. With the F-15 being very expensive and strings attached, so the SU-30 is an attractive option for third world countries.

Why sorry about that... you are posting the news about future upgrades on F-15 and future variants.. why leave Su 30 behind why being biased ??

F-15s have already been implementing AESA radars. The news I posted is about the latest in AESA development for the USAF F-15s. And is already in low initial rate of production.

The Silent Eagle is in prototype stages.

When Su 30 is also having upgrades with Zhuk ASE Radar which is Active-ESA having around 1650+ T/R Modules, NIIP L-Band AESA on wing tips.. SAP-518, SAP-14 jammers and ECM.... higher thrust valued Al-31FNMK-3 with around 150+ KN full thrust etc...
Stand off weapons like K-100 Novator, Brahmos ASM... a newer generation R-77-PD with 120-160Km engagement range having ramjet propulsion... etc..

A batch of 40 of them will undergo such upgrades, not all of them. And if the AESA radar is indeed superior to the new APG-82(V)1 radar system on the F-15, please provide a source for this. The USA has the best electronics available in their aircraft. There simply is NO equal.

The F-15 has a higher thrust-to-weight ratio.

Think of it this way, if I am two steps ahead of you in technology, and both you and I develop our respective technologies, I'd always be two steps ahead of you.

Maybe I am being biased, but some of you are really overestimating the MKI. On a broad picture, the F-15 is superior overall.

 

[MastanKhan]

The planes having a TVC nozzle on their engine can and would use TVC with an operational load and same with the supercruise... only a few planes such as Gripen (may be I am wrong here), and Rafael can't do supercruise with full operational load... on all hard points... they are sorting out the issue with a newer engine for Rafael...

F-22 Raptor with 2D TVC nozzle is under active service for USAF.

I wonder who tricked USAF to buy LM F-22 and who tricked RuAF to buy Su 35BM/PAK FA and Who is tricking PLAAF to invest its resources in J-20..... idiots they are and the whole world have the word written on their foreheads and only Pakistanis can see that perhaps..

Hi,

You see guys----you are arguing without understanding what those newer aircraft with tvc would be used for----. They are not being designed for close combat----. Their targets would be BVR's and then they will be gone---and they wopn't be on supercruise---but rather 450---550 knots air speed when they will make their launch----if they have to change direction due to thrust vectoring---they will slow down----.

All you superstars are arguing and going blue in your faces----but you have no clue of the physics involved----suddenly you educated people have become ------. Talk about the stress on the machinery----talk about the G factor and its effect on the body-----the pilot who pushed that button----actually was possibly performing TVC at high speed which either tore apart the air plane in the air---or the pilots blacked out due to high G's----.

Has anyone tried to get off ramp of a freeway designated for 25 mph and taken it at 100 mph---why don't you try that and then come back and let us discuss tvc at that time----.

To those about taking out F15's by su30---the americans underperformed to see what the su30 could do---and then out of habbit----and they do it very well so that you begin to think that you are really good---they start to praise how good you are---how superior your traing is---knowing very well that they suckered you in---.

And make you forget that you could only do 120---130 hours a year---whereas their pilots were doing 220 + hours a year---they play these cat and mice games with you and make you believe in yourself---but when they pull the rug from under you----you have no clue as to what happened.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Copy pasting from another forum... Now this gives another angle to the discussion here. Americans tested TVC on F-15 but never adopted it on F-15.

In the late 80's early 90's Nasa studied the Forward swept wing with the X-29; They started this because they had earlier reports that the FSW had many aerodynamical advantages (mostly thanks to german and russian studies after the WWII); Those reports were real...but only very theoritical (they studied only the wing alone) thus when Nasa tested the X-29 and analysed the real flight result (and wind tunnel models results) they actually found that appart from the high AOA possibility NONE of the aformentionned advantages were present;
They placed real hopes on High AOA L/D but found out the F-16 and F-15 were superior even in that; They also hope to resolve the divergence problem of the wings but the weight penalty had many other bad effects.

In the end they concluded that the X-29 configuration (not the FSW) was not up to the exceptations.


Second study, The F-15 active with 3D nozzles; The purpose of this study was not post stall maneuverability but supersonic drag reduction; What they found out was that while the TVC reduced in some parts the drag and allowed for more g's (especially in yaw) the loads on the nozzle actuators were too high and that in supersonic the nozzle movement created huge forces that disturbed the aerodynamics.

The conclusion was that the system was promising but further adaptation were required.

In russia too the theoritical advantages of some elements were adopted then droped; TVC nozzles used on sukhoi planes have their limitations; For example on SU-30 MKI the nozzles NEED to be deflected in yaw because of the plane design which cause huge drag as such the TVC is only activated via a switch when the plane is in post stall regime.

Similarly the SU-37 had only TVC engine in subsonic because of the supersonic loads; The SU-35 itself with its canard finally proved more draggy and the later were dropped.

Topic formely about the PAK FA and now about the aerodynamics of the modern fighters

 

[Zabaniyah]

^^^
Hey, here's a pic. It even had canards

McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And they never adopted it

 

[newdelhinsa]

How F-16 BVR capabilities are better than MKI when MKI operated with Radars in training mode during Red Flag.

If SU-30 is so bad or ineffectual then their is no point for any other pilots to proudly train on them in China.

The war will tell who will pull the rug underneath when both forces will operate in full military mode, till then chillax.

 

[rockstarIN]

=MastanKhan;2269453]Hi,

You see guys----you are arguing without understanding what those newer aircraft with tvc would be used for----. They are not being designed for close combat----. Their targets would be BVR's and then they will be gone---and they wopn't be on supercruise---but rather 450---550 knots air speed when they will make their launch----if they have to change direction due to thrust vectoring---they will slow down----.

All you superstars are arguing and going blue in your faces----but you have no clue of the physics involved----suddenly you educated people have become ------. Talk about the stress on the machinery----talk about the G factor and its effect on the body-----the pilot who pushed that button----actually was possibly performing TVC at high speed which either tore apart the air plane in the air---or the pilots blacked out due to high G's----.

Has anyone tried to get off ramp of a freeway designated for 25 mph and taken it at 100 mph---why don't you try that and then come back and let us discuss tvc at that time----.

To those about taking out F15's by su30---the americans underperformed to see what the su30 could do---and then out of habbit----and they do it very well so that you begin to think that you are really good---they start to praise how good you are---how superior your traing is---knowing very well that they suckered you in---.

And make you forget that you could only do 120---130 hours a year---whereas their pilots were doing 220 + hours a year---they play these cat and mice games with you and make you believe in yourself---but when they pull the rug from under you----you have no clue as to what happened.

I Just can't understand why everybody think that West is always superior.!!

If they did not well in a exercise, then it is a habit of understanding others, praising them to know the capabilities and playing cat and mouse games and everybody else are fools.

Did anybody believe IAF employed the same tactics in Rad flag? ....oh no, how can IAF think like that? It is an real USAF victory.!!


Can't other AF guys out think them?

I know they are superior in tech but why should we underestimate ourselves?

And regarding the hours, I really do not know how much an IAF pilot gets on an average, from where you got 120-130?

 

[Zabaniyah]

I Just can't understand why everybody think that West is always superior.!!

If they did not well in a exercise, then it is a habit of understanding others, praising them to know the capabilities and playing cat and mouse games and everybody else are fools.

Did anybody believe IAF employed the same tactics in Rad flag? ....oh no, how can IAF think like that? It is an real USAF victory.!!


Can't other AF guys out think them?

I know they are superior in tech but why should we underestimate ourselves?

And regarding the hours, I really do not know how much an IAF pilot gets on an average, from where you got 120-130?

Nobody is saying that the SU-30MKI or any variant are bad. It has reached whatever potential it is capable of reaching till now, and has space to develop even more. We respect that.

But please, do not say things like:
"sukhoi30mki is the dominant one in world right now."
"sukhoi can detect raptor"
Or:
"As a matte of fact raptor and typhoon are considered to be a reply for sukhoi air dominance by west though typhoon is nothing more than around 78% effective raptor is considered to have a edge over sukhoi but F-16 are no match f-15 advanced version i dunno much if it could actually tackle it though yes in close dogfights they are better but sukhoi30mki big range neutralize all that advantage"

See post #227. My reply was to such fanboyish claims.

As far as flying hours, USAF pilots currently have the highest flying hours more than any country. Russia included. And that matters.

 

[rockstarIN]

Nobody is saying that the SU-30MKI or any variant are bad. It has reached whatever potential it is capable of reaching till now, and has space to develop even more. We respect that.

But please, do not say things like:
"sukhoi30mki is the dominant one in world right now."
"sukhoi can detect raptor"
Or:
"As a matte of fact raptor and typhoon are considered to be a reply for sukhoi air dominance by west though typhoon is nothing more than around 78% effective raptor is considered to have a edge over sukhoi but F-16 are no match f-15 advanced version i dunno much if it could actually tackle it though yes in close dogfights they are better but sukhoi30mki big range neutralize all that advantage"

See post #227. My reply was to such fanboyish claims.

As far as flying hours, USAF pilots currently have the highest flying hours more than any country. Russia included. And that matters.

I was not talking about MKI , but in general. You can't say when West's plane is not doing well...they are just testing you and you loose its ultimate victory of Americans.

And about flying hours, As I told...I do not know about how much IAF pilot flies and USAF pilot flies on average. I think NATO standard is 150 hrs per year.

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

Nobody is saying that the SU-30MKI or any variant are bad. It has reached whatever potential it is capable of reaching till now, and has space to develop even more. We respect that.

But please, do not say things like:
"sukhoi30mki is the dominant one in world right now."
"sukhoi can detect raptor"
Or:
"As a matte of fact raptor and typhoon are considered to be a reply for sukhoi air dominance by west though typhoon is nothing more than around 78% effective raptor is considered to have a edge over sukhoi but F-16 are no match f-15 advanced version i dunno much if it could actually tackle it though yes in close dogfights they are better but sukhoi30mki big range neutralize all that advantage"

See post #227. My reply was to such fanboyish claims.

As far as flying hours, USAF pilots currently have the highest flying hours more than any country. Russia included. And that matters.

I was not talking about MKI , but in general. You can't say when West's plane is not doing well...they are just testing you and you loose its ultimate victory of Americans.

And about flying hours, As I told...I do not know about how much IAF pilot flies and USAF pilot flies on average. I think NATO standard is 150 hrs per year.

 

[DARKY]

In most cases.



I didn't say the aerodynamic factor should be completely ignored. It isn't the most important factor today.

Aerodynamic factor is still very important and forms the basis of structure which is modeled on the user requirements for Americans... stealth and for Russians super maneuverability.

I didn't say the MKI isn't BVR capable. You were saying that the MKI has superior aerodynamic characteristics compared to the F-15, which is true. And this is mainly important in close-in dog fights. But then, it can be said that dodging the latest IR A2A missiles is difficult. For the most part, ECMs and flares would be used to counter such threats, which the MKI has. As long as the jet can perform the job in close in dog fights, then it is fine. And generally speaking, Russian jets are superior in this aspect.

I think they were training with old IDF F-15s.

There are ways through which radar locks are broken kinemetically and missiles are turned blind from their mid-course guidance before the VHF seeker activates.

That's for the customization according to end-user requirements. That doesn't automatically mean that the SU-30 is overall technologically superior to the F-15. With the F-15 being very expensive and strings attached, so the SU-30 is an attractive option for third world countries.

That was for your views that F-15 have a larger scope for expansion.... while Su 27 have had more variants... for different purposes... such a Su 27, Su 30MKK, Su 37, Su 35BM, Su 33, Su 34 to name a few prominent ones... the expense is there in the case of Su 30 also... depending on the package user wants it to have...

F-15s have already been implementing AESA radars. The news I posted is about the latest in AESA development for the USAF F-15s. And is already in low initial rate of production.

The Silent Eagle is in prototype stages.

Don't see much of a future for silent eagle... However would like to remind you that a similar upgrade program for flankers was also proposed but dropped since no customer was found for it..

A batch of 40 of them will undergo such upgrades, not all of them. And if the AESA radar is indeed superior to the new APG-82(V)1 radar system on the F-15, please provide a source for this. The USA has the best electronics available in their aircraft. There simply is NO equal.

No all the aircrafts would be upgraded the 1st batch would be all new 40 planes and the next would be the replacement of Su 30MK which IAF has already returned to Russia... and Russia sold it quickly to some 3rd country.

The F-15 has a higher thrust-to-weight ratio.

Again you didn't mention the flanker variant....the Su 30MKI has higher T/W ratio and Su 35BM has even higher.

Think of it this way, if I am two steps ahead of you in technology, and both you and I develop our respective technologies, I'd always be two steps ahead of you.

Maybe I am being biased, but some of you are really overestimating the MKI. On a broad picture, the F-15 is superior overall.

Both F-15 and Su 27 were designed at the time when both USA and USSR had a little technological gap...

again on the broad picture you still didn't consider the options like the rear facing radar, ability to fire weapons behind, Longer ranged IRST, ability to datalink and use each other radar data.... and many other things which the Su 30MKI has and the F-15 doesn't even the senior USAF pilots have openly admitted in public that Su 30MKI is over all a better plane than F-16s and F-15s.

 

[DARKY]

Hi,

You see guys----you are arguing without understanding what those newer aircraft with tvc would be used for----. They are not being designed for close combat----. Their targets would be BVR's and then they will be gone---and they wopn't be on supercruise---but rather 450---550 knots air speed when they will make their launch----if they have to change direction due to thrust vectoring---they will slow down----.

All you superstars are arguing and going blue in your faces----but you have no clue of the physics involved----suddenly you educated people have become ------. Talk about the stress on the machinery----talk about the G factor and its effect on the body-----the pilot who pushed that button----actually was possibly performing TVC at high speed which either tore apart the air plane in the air---or the pilots blacked out due to high G's----.

Has anyone tried to get off ramp of a freeway designated for 25 mph and taken it at 100 mph---why don't you try that and then come back and let us discuss tvc at that time----.

To those about taking out F15's by su30---the americans underperformed to see what the su30 could do---and then out of habbit----and they do it very well so that you begin to think that you are really good---they start to praise how good you are---how superior your traing is---knowing very well that they suckered you in---.

And make you forget that you could only do 120---130 hours a year---whereas their pilots were doing 220 + hours a year---they play these cat and mice games with you and make you believe in yourself---but when they pull the rug from under you----you have no clue as to what happened.

Supercruise have added a new aspect to air combat... If you remember the swing wing fighters like the F-14 and Mig 23 were a big success since they could come at very high speed hit the opponent and run away... and surprisingly Mig 23 had more success than Mig 29 which was a better plane and a generation ahead.

Supercruise not only runs the plane faster... It also extends the range of the missile being launched... the same missile which runs 80km from a non supercrusing plane would run 100km from a supercruising plane (since it would not require to burn a lot of fuel to gain speed)...

TVC helps in getting shorter turning time and radius hence in a classical gun fight It would be the TVC equipped plane which would come behind the non TVC one quiet often.

The pilot was a trainee and mistook the button for another one... since it was behind his back... the veterans have been and are using that button from 6-7 years without any trouble to themselves and the machinery...

TVC has got nothing to do with damaging the health of the plane rather it helps in having a longer life for the air frame and other control surfaces... the next gen planes that wuld be Un-manned would also have TVC same is the case with missiles... only the human factor is of concern here which cannot stand G-loads above 9g usually in the current G-suites...

No good airforce shows its best to the other airforce... its not only with USAF... Su 30 pilots here are notching above 200hrs/annum right from their 2nd or 3rd year... while the veterans go upto 300hrs annually... there has been diaper missions also when the pilots were asked to put on the astronaut diapers since a 10+ hour mission was to be performed.... they also have food switches where they can select a food item from a list and nourish themselves on a long endurance mission.

 

[Storm Force]

For nearly a decade PDF members of all nationalities have debated the merits of the SU30MKI.. Ever since its arrival in 2004 it has been a HOT TOPIC. With the IAF increasing orders twice over to 272 and then regularly pitching them against the best in western world in excersise the EFFORT to prove their point got even more concerted.

No matter what we say the SU30MKI is a very good platform and india & russia plan to make it EVEN more lethal.

Generally speaking globally it is the most talked about hyped fighter on the plant.

We go round in circles re TVC RCS & russian service issues etc.

BUT THE FACTS ARE THE INDIANS are investing $$ billions on it. AND THEY HAVE JUST SPENT 3 YEARS flying F16 typhoons gripens & rafaes AND testing them to the limit.

INDIA TODAY can buy any 4th generation fighter on the planet ALL options ARE OPEN and they have the $$$ money to do it.

YET THEY HAVE CHOSEN A SU30MKI AS THEIR BACK BONE FIGHTER. may just maybe THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU ME and the seniors on this forum about how good or bad this machine really is

 

[SQ8]

Darky.. I sent a message on Fb... he seemed busy but sent me a simple one liner.

"ask him about the X-31, delta wing, slender body.. yet would do circles around any flanker type"

 

[SQ8]

Darky.. I sent a message on Fb... he seemed busy but sent me a simple one liner.

"ask him about the X-31, delta wing, slender body.. yet would do circles around any flanker type"

Also, the post you read of Maj henderson.. in a many vs many fight.. the introduction of Helmet mounted sights and high G off boresight missiles has made maneuvering fairly redundant. It will be slash and dash, the first one to get missiles off and get out of the mix alive.

 

[Pfpilot]

The development of TVC runs counter to the direction of aerial combat, which is moving aircraft engagements to longer distances. The Europeans, Russians and Chinese have developed TVC as a means to get around the question of the superiority of American fighters, as far as, RCS is concerned.
With aircraft that cannot match the stealth features of modern day American fighters, the focus seems to be on producing aircraft that will counter these aircraft through superior maneuverability. It seems to be the design philosophy behind the Pak Fa as well and it completely overlooks the ability of modern high offbore sight iir missiles to out turn an aircraft, way past the point the pilot's organs turn to jello. The su-30mki is massive and it will only be easier to spot for a pilot...if the idea is to look first and shoot first...well its hard not to see an aircraft that huge.
I have not yet heard one logical argument as to how TVC is relevant in modern combat, if the missiles can out maneuver the aircraft by 50gs. Equally important; how does it help an aircraft survive against a BVR shot when any maneuverability still keeps the adversary in the line of sight.
I only mentioned the Pak Fa because it is systematic of what seems to be a certain level of denial in rest of the world, on how the modern American fighter is built to fight...you cant out turn what you can't see.

 

[Storm Force]

PFPILOT.

Re your comment SU30MKI big rcs. IT also has a massive aperture on its bars pesa radar. Pesa technology means faster scanning and processing. ONCE you combine a massive APERTURE/radius of scanning with a faster processing of data BY THE PESA RADARS the SU30MKI pilot will see you first regardless of its RCS. or you havng a smaller RCS.

TrACKING range on SU30MKI is excellent and the nos and variety of BVR and WVR missles with different seekers is very difficult to fight off.

IMAGINE a su30mki firing 4 missles at the same time " yes the su30mki can fire in four missles one go" and they will have different seekers ie both active and semi active..

AND STILL HAVE 10 LEFT if the 4 dont get first.

IMO against any NON AESA eqiUpped opponent the SU30MKI HAS THE CLEAR ADVANTAGE. and this has been confirmed in many forums accross the world including F16 NET .COM which includes x falcon pilots.

SIZE means bigger jammers more EW suites and bigger more powerful radars.

one SU30MKI Does the same job as 2 F16 or 2 mirages. over twice the combat radius