PAK FA – FGFA Deal Updates

[shree835]

An Indo-Russian proposal to jointly produce fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is expected to soon take off thanks to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s recent visit to that country. A decision on the project is expected in the next six months, chairman of Bengaluru-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) T Suvarna Raju said today. The FGFA programme has regained its speed. Discussions are on. Hopefully, we should know a decision in next six months,” Raju told reporters in Bangalore.

According to the programme, the two governments were to contribute $6 billion each for prototype development and production at the time of signing the final design contract. The two countries are yet to sign the contract, without which the project won’t take off.

The project, which costs an estimated $30 billion, involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Under the project, single-seat fighters will be made in India.

HAL has done the preliminary design, contract of which was signed for $295 million in 2010, Raju said.

HAL, which is already manufacturing multi-purpose helicopter ALH, is gearing up to enter the civil aviation space in a big way.

Last year, it had invited proposals from engine manufacturers ahead of designing an aircraft around a suitable engine. It is now likely that HAL would get support from Russian aircraft manufacturers for developing a regional transport aircraft. This, Raju said, would involve an initial investment of Rs7,000 crore, to develop and successfully demonstrate the aircraft.

“In the next five years, there would be a requirement of 200 regional transport aircraft, one way is to make them under license or development. If you go for joint development, you are always dependent on your big brother whoever is helping you,” said Raju during a press conference held to mark the platinum jubilee of HAL.

”The next 25 years’ road map would be challenging. We aim to be in the league of top ten aerospace companies in the world,” he said.

HAL also aims to achieve a Maharatna status in near future and focus on diversifying its customer profile to non-defence sector, Raju said.

The HAL chairman said the helicopter business segment is ”expected to grow manifold and the company will make efforts to see helicopters operate in many parts of the world.”

”A year and a half back, HAL took the initiative and proposed that it would like to form a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV). Now we are looking at two ways – brand India aircraft or co-develop a Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA),” Raju said.

The HAL and National Aeronautical Limited (NAL) had taken the lead to build this 70-90 seater aircraft on a public private partnership (PPP) model with a special purpose vehicle (SPV) formed to steer this project.

”The prime minister, who is the driving force behind ‘Make in India’, will be here for the foundation laying ceremony on January 2,” Raju said at a programme to mark the 75th year of the PSU.

In order to avoid dependence on foreign part supplies under the development, the twp partners have proposed to develop an entirely new (Made in India) brand, Raju said, adding that HAL is deliberating the plans.

“We are deliberating whether to create brand India aircraft, that would be our choice because by 2035 India would be number one or two in aviation market,” said Raju.

“And with the kind of approach the government is showing and changing the policy, we may prefer the option of creating a brand India aeroplane,” said Raju.

Raju said HAL has delivered the first series production Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Teja to Indian Air Force (IAF) in 2015.

“We are trying to make LCA Mach 1 which immediately fits in the requirement of the customer (IAF) as LCA mach 2 would be available for production in the year 2021,” said Raju.

HAL is also looking to double production capacity to 16 a year.

“We are planning to increase the capacity to make 16 aircraft per year by 2018 at an investment of more than Rs200 crore. Fifty per cent of the investment will be made by HAL, while the Indian Navy will invest 25 per cent and the Indian Air Force 25 per cent,” he said.

PAK FA - FGFA Deal Updates | Indian Aerospace/Defense News

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Mr Raju is advertising HAL and its achievements only.

TBH the first update post Russian visit is suppose to reach DM MP and then to HAL.

As i stated earlier the new setup looks more about a JV route between Sukhoi and probably Tata and this JV will also produce the Su30 MKI spares and other LRUs which are at present produced in Russia.

“We are trying to make LCA Mach 1 which immediately fits in the requirement of the customer (IAF) as LCA mach 2 would be available for production in the year 2021,” said Raju.

For the record, for this statement back in August 2015, HAL asked IAF/MOD to buy LCA Mark 1A withe following excepts
"According to official sources HAL recently proposed to the IAF that, instead of waiting for it to design the more capable LCA Mk 2, the air force should acquire the under-development Tejas Mk 1A variant, which is marginally more proficient than the existing Mk 1.

HAL claimed its scientists and engineers are overstretched with developmental projects such as the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 basic trainer and the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer, and are consequently unable to ensure the LCA Mk 2's timely development.

HAL went on to state that the Mk 2 variant it is jointly developing with the government-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is unlikely to enter series production before 2024, some five years after conducting its maiden test flight around 2019."
Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | IHS Jane's 360

Do you see the whole thing here.. For orders HAL said not before 2024.. and now when GOI wants to involve a pvt company like TATA, HAL goes out of teh way and talks about FGFA and also says LCA Mk2 will be ready by 2021...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Aminroop @Ind4Ever @knight11 and others

Can you guys look at these statements.. Did HAL played a game with the nation for Mark1A orders by belitting all of us and saying MK2 will take time till 2024 and now HAL says its available in 2021... Mark1A is suppose to come in 2017 and with annual production rate of 16 birds a year, its straight forward line occupied uptill 2024..
So from where all these statements and why these twisted facts..?
Are they self boasting? For a better public Image?

(sorry if i am critical, i wish honestly they concentrate on LCA more then all these statements.. FOC is near.. we need to reach that milestone asap.. and then get Mark1A and hopefully with some more weight reductions as planned)

 

[anant_s]

HAL claimed its scientists and engineers are overstretched with developmental projects such as the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 basic trainer and the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer, and are consequently unable to ensure the LCA Mk 2's timely development.

i find this hilarious.
HTT 40 is HAL's brain child even when IAF wants to go for Pilatus birds only.
IJT too has a chequered development history and i'm not to sure if IAF wants it anymore with current regime of BT--->AJT--->OCU serving the purpose.
LCA is ordered in very small numbers and IAF wants LCA 2 quickly. If now HAL and other agencies are coming up with excuses of delay beforehand, perhaps someone needs to look at priorities.
I get a strange feeling that LCA 1A could simply be a ploy to buy more time.

 

[shree835]

Only Option left...PRIVATIZE HAL.

 

[knight11]

Mr Raju is advertising HAL and its achievements only.

TBH the first update post Russian visit is suppose to reach DM MP and then to HAL.

As i stated earlier the new setup looks more about a JV route between Sukhoi and probably Tata and this JV will also produce the Su30 MKI spares and other LRUs which are at present produced in Russia.




For the record, for this statement back in August 2015, HAL asked IAF/MOD to buy LCA Mark 1A withe following excepts
"According to official sources HAL recently proposed to the IAF that, instead of waiting for it to design the more capable LCA Mk 2, the air force should acquire the under-development Tejas Mk 1A variant, which is marginally more proficient than the existing Mk 1.

HAL claimed its scientists and engineers are overstretched with developmental projects such as the Hindustan Turbo Trainer-40 basic trainer and the Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer, and are consequently unable to ensure the LCA Mk 2's timely development.

HAL went on to state that the Mk 2 variant it is jointly developing with the government-run Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is unlikely to enter series production before 2024, some five years after conducting its maiden test flight around 2019."
Delay to Tejas Mk 2 could push IAF into accepting modified Mk 1s | IHS Jane's 360

Do you see the whole thing here.. For orders HAL said not before 2024.. and now when GOI wants to involve a pvt company like TATA, HAL goes out of teh way and talks about FGFA and also says LCA Mk2 will be ready by 2021...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @Aminroop @Ind4Ever @knight11 and others

Can you guys look at these statements.. Did HAL played a game with the nation for Mark1A orders by belitting all of us and saying MK2 will take time till 2024 and now HAL says its available in 2021... Mark1A is suppose to come in 2017 and with annual production rate of 16 birds a year, its straight forward line occupied uptill 2024..
So from where all these statements and why these twisted facts..?
Are they self boasting? For a better public Image?

(sorry if i am critical, i wish honestly they concentrate on LCA more then all these statements.. FOC is near.. we need to reach that milestone asap.. and then get Mark1A and hopefully with some more weight reductions as planned)

@PARIKRAMA You are Mixing every thing. LCA Tejas is ADA brainchild, and HAL is production agencies, however few parts subsystems are designed by HAL. And HAL is invoved in the JV with the Sukhoi for the FGFA no role of ADA in FGFA, because HAL have done the permilanary design.

For the time being I am not involving the HAL's iJT, AJT etc.

Mr Raju is advertising HAL and its achievements only.
.

It is because mr. Raju is the chief of the HAL.

First for ADA

Usually a fighter plane is designed around the engine, not the reverse, and in case of LCA Kaveri was the engine, and F404 was just the temporary arrangement. But when Kaveri was delinked from the LCA, F404 was choosen, which was underpowered wrt to the Kaveri which was flat rate 90+ KN after Second revised ASQR requirement.
Second its the N-LCA Demand that F-414INS Engine was choosen, because it was clear that with F404 N-LCA Mk1 could not take off with the useful load from the skijump carrier operation. IAF took advantage of it, and jump into MK2 with F-414 INS engine, WHY ??

1. You will say because it could easily solve the ASQR requirement of the IAF, specialiy relate to the STR. That would required the change in the airframe, and whole set of tests are required because the length will increase upto 1m and width.

My response --- The dimensions of F-404 and F414 are pretty same, and both have dia of 35 inches and length same and increase wt of mere 110 kg.
It is because the LCA which was the replacement of Mig21 Interceptor why would IAF wants the dogfighting characteristics and a terrain avoidance and ground SAR capable AESA MMR, is due to the facts they wants the true Multirole fighter now, which is MK-2 in short, and the increase in length is not due to the engine, or reduction of drag, rather to put more avionics in its nose aka internal jammer, IRST and Yes with TVC.

Requirement of F414 was due to the fact LCA was designed around Kaveri engine with airflow intake of 172 lb/s (78.0 kg/s), while the GE F404 IN20 has an airflow of 153 lb/s (70 kg/s). and GE F414 engine takes in 170 lb/s (77.1 kg/s). So for many of our Gignos Experts who starts speculating the drag issue, or flaw in the design, its not the drag, but the inlet intake which was designed with the different airflow intake, which ADA did try to patch up with few tweeks because the major redesign of the air intake would required substantial effort and resources with few benefits comparatively.
So with Minimal change in the original design of air inlet, the MK2 could easily carry the external load of 5000 kg as compare to 3500-4000 KG.

Second for HAL

If we talk of LCA first, HAL role here is to manufacture LCA not to develop LCA, and for the profitable venture they need not only a substantial order to produce it economically but planned according to the next batch for its line which a producing party would like to. Earlier order was for 20 MK1, for which how could HAL setup another Line because SOP18 of 100 LCA MK1A was signed on 23 Sept only, so now they can plan accordingly and setup its second line, so that till it completes its order next batch of MK-2 gets ready.

The process of manufacturing from design to product starts from first from the frozen of the Design which was frozen this year around june. Then ADA will give all drawings, diagram, blueprints, and prepare SOP standard operation procedure and DAL, which takes some time.
After getting those HAL would prepare BOM Bill of material, and stream line suppliers, issue them procurement order, train technicians, set up lines, jigs etc etc. In all it takes up some time thats why second MK1 upto march 2016, because before putting its labor and technicians for job they needs training and gets familiarize with the work. So after 2017 we could expect the ramp up in production i.e 16 aircraft annually. In short 2.5 years after freezing for standard calculation. For MK2 which bore many commonality with the MK-1A, it would be easy for quick delivery.

Sorry for lengthy history, but its not due to HAL, but due to change of IAF new requirement for which ADA have to do all its tests of new modified airframe, and to produce new SOP, after that HAL will start building so how the question comes they are buying time.

For FGFA

No comments because picture is not clear yet

For TATA or Pvt company for producing parts for MKI

That is the part of increasing the MKI availability, because to keep the readily available parts stocks for the fleet of 250+ MKI required lot of funds and pvt players could reduce the price of them, and I think parts could be supplied for other flankers like Indonesia could be meet from India, same like the Mig 29.