Pak Army isn't capable of fighting and Bajwa's Kashmir deal with India

[INS_Vikrant]

I have to admit Lt Col and downwards in the PA have the tenacity to fight to the last, and they've been proving it repeatedly. The problem sets in when a "star" kicks in the whole scenario changes. Why?!?

In 71 after General Niazi surrendered how many lower ranking soldiers of PA disregarded the orders and decided to keep on fighting till the end. Not Even One. They all decided to save themselves from getting butchered by muktis by surrendering to IA.

 

[PanzerKiel]

In 71 after General Niazi surrendered how many lower ranking soldiers of PA disregarded the orders and decided to keep on fighting till the end. Not Even One. They all decided to save themselves from getting butchered by muktis by surrendering to IA.

Lets not dwell into that. There are multiple examples, many later rising to General officer ranks who continued fighting even after the ceasefire.

 

[Crimson Blue]

Lets not dwell into that. There are multiple examples, many later rising to General officer ranks who continued fighting even after the ceasefire.

So what is your opinion in this matter (Hamid Mir's statement)?
What was Bajwa's agenda and if other Generals were on board with what Bajwa was planning for Pakistan?

 

[ali1808]

.........are you sure you okay?..........do you EVEN think the indian military is in the same league as russia?????....................have you even had the aptitude to consider that the Chinese who can now manufacture advanced weapons systems to a high standard, would supply Pakistan with enough high tech weapons in order to defeat the indians? ..............

do you really think , chinese would come to our aid in a conflict
They were asked for help in 1971 , they never responded
In 1999 in Kargil it was the chinese who gave musharraf's leaked audio tape from a chinese hotel to americans and they gave it to RAW
which RAW used to create the narrative against pakistan

So what is your opinion in this matter (Hamid Mir's statement)?
What was Bajwa's agenda and if other Generals were on board with what Bajwa was planning for Pakistan?

I think Bajwa and Musharraf both understood , it is impossible for both India and pakistan to get other side of Kashmir
It's better to resolve the issue and move to solve other internal current and future problems

 

[PanzerKiel]

So what is your opinion in this matter (Hamid Mir's statement)?
What was Bajwa's agenda and if other Generals were on board with what Bajwa was planning for Pakistan?

My only question is why Hamid Mir was silent for the last one year? As far as my opinion is concerned, General Bajwa must have highlighted some limitations, not a blatant statement like these anchors are saying that we are not capable of fighting....in ko bhi masala lagana achi tarah aata hai.

 

[ali1808]

Why you all are focused on who's going to help and supply Pakistan with weapons

Look at the other side of picture
Who's going to supply weapons to India?
Surely not west and Russia which itself is busy in war
Will be way hard for them to supply weapons to another country

I firmly believe if a conventional war happened
Pakistan will surely get more help from china than india will get from russia.

Turkey is another option for Pakistan.
And not to forgot the Islamic world will also back Pakistan
Pakistani will definitely be in a better position if we had a leader with courage at that time

Which world are you living in
Has the islamic world ever supported pakistan in any of the 4 wars ?

 

[ali1808]

Let me explain the matter to you with an example, China and Taiwan.....as I believe, and you would agree, that Pakistan is a super power compared to Taiwan and India is leaps and bounds weaker than China and yet China has not invaded Taiwan despite all provocations.

The reason India does not invade Pakistan can be explained with the example above. India is well aware that any misadventure with Pakistan would leave her devastated and if it spirals out of control it can lead to annihilation of both countries in a MAD scenario so India is absolutely not in any position to take Pakistan on in a full fledged war.

You are wrong in so many ways
Taiwan is much much stronger than Pakistan in almost every way whether its economic , social or conventional defence
the only think they lack in is nuclear weapons

India is not interested in any misadventure with pakistan until and unless it is for a political mileage
not because it can not do something but because they are focusing on their own country's development whether its infrastructure or economic or defence or enhancing their relationships with the world

when we were spreading the kashmir issue in the world , India was building railways , hydro projects and highways in kashmir
just look at their renewable power statistics
the IOJK socio economic indicators are much better then every state combined in pakistan
their foreign policy , their infrastructure boom , their manufacturing industry , research and development , agriculture and most importantly railways

 

[Mav3rick]

Defeat is a state of mind; no one is very defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality.

So basically what you are saying is we do not need any army as we have already lost it, rather the whole idea of partition and independence should be rolled back and we should either merge back with India or be a client state. India has claims on GB & AJK so maybe we should start by handing over that first?

No wonder you are always defending PDM parties. You are more disappointing than an unsalted pretzel. It’s impossible to underestimate you.


It is a well documented and established fact that Bajwa was not interested in responding, it was the PM along with Air and Naval chief's who took the stand.

Baki "main na mano" ka kuch nahi hou sakta

Fighting a war and having the capability of winning a war are 2 very different things. If war is imposed on us by India, we can defend ourselves and also give India a befitting response. However, let me ask you a simple question, can we take back occupied Kashmir from India by force?

As for your comment on Bajwa and Feb 2019, if what you think true is indeed true then the rhetoric of same page does down the drain which was being fed to us as late as 2021. I can once again reiterate, although quite pointless wasting my time, that the Army chief has to endorse plans by PAF and PN otherwise there is no go.

 

[Mav3rick]

We very well do, that has been the practice in the country since so many years. Just have a look. Secondly, are we now going to attribute the PAF response to Bajwa as well now? There are multiple sources on record (other than PTI) that agree to Bajwa's conciliatory response and the PAF and PN going for the aggressive option.

Or are you saying that Bajwa ordered IK to give the go ahead for the strike? Let's not go there again.

I am attributing the Military's response to a well coordinated and approved plan on which all 3 chief's would have signed on. The political leadership of IK including the entire opposition and the public was on same page that our response should be swift and the message to India was clear that we would not take any BS from India. I am rather countering the propaganda that Bajwa was shivering from taking any action against India.

No one is saying don't be friends with India. But then don't bring up the 'Kashmir ka sauda kar lia' rhetoric either. PPP and PML had a whole campaign labeling IK as a traitor and the saudagar of Kashmir. But now suddenly when everyone gets to know it was Bajwa who was vying for it, it becomes the better option? Can't have this hypocrisy sir.

We as a nation really need to stop giving the estab an undue role in everything, from politics to foreign affairs to agriculture. Each and every politician is guilty of it across the spectrum. IK was guilty of it before, and the current lot is too, just have a look at Shahbaz's speech the other day. Try and pick up your own weight ffs and present yourself as credible enough to the international community so that you don't have to call the big guy again and again.

This might be anecdotal, but I heard once from someone within the FO that the world knows Pakistani foreign policy is dictated by the estab, and no one takes our foreign ministers (most of them) seriously, especially not these days when you have Khar and Billo going about in a totally disjoint manner. The US ambassador takes his orders not from the FO, but from somewhere else these days. Yeh haal hai hamari government ka is waqt.

100% agreed and that is the only way forward. The entire political, military and other leaderships, including the public, must be on same page to resolve the Kashmir issue. But to begin with, we have to start telling our public the truth that Pakistan cannot take back occupied Kashmir by force just as India cannot take back Azad Kashmir from Pakistan. And I am not being a hypocrite, if Modi can resolve the Kashmir issue for Pakistan I would vote for him to get the NOBEL peace prize; that's how important I think resolution of the issue is!

As for FO and our FP, it is well known that PML did not appoint anyone to the post for a long time because it was being managed by the establishment. I reckon the powers outside Pakistan have faith only on the establishment simply because that's the only constant in Pakistan; everything and everyone else changes.

You have a loser mentality. Can't do anything.

You won't achieve nothing in life because you lose b4 the fight. Reality is we have cowards at the helm. Simple

However, thanks to you we have conquerors in the UK trying to take UK by force......that's what you must be doing in UK, right?

Your opinions are a pathetic joke on sense and sensibility.

 

[Mav3rick]

You are wrong in so many ways
Taiwan is much much stronger than Pakistan in almost every way whether its economic , social or conventional defence
the only think they lack in is nuclear weapons

It can be your opinion that Taiwan is stronger than Pakistan in terms of conventional defense. However, the Nuclear Power that we possess alone trumps everything that Taiwan has and that is the one constant which will always deter India even if we had no Military.

India is not interested in any misadventure with pakistan until and unless it is for a political mileage
not because it can not do something but because they are focusing on their own country's development whether its infrastructure or economic or defence or enhancing their relationships with the world

I agree, India is progressing at a fast pace and they would never want to endanger that growth and FDI. They are focused on their own growth. But it is also a fact that even conventionally, India cannot afford to take on Pakistan because in a defensive posture, we can actually even defeat India.

when we were spreading the kashmir issue in the world , India was building railways , hydro projects and highways in kashmir
just look at their renewable power statistics
the IOJK socio economic indicators are much better then every state combined in pakistan
their foreign policy , their infrastructure boom , their manufacturing industry , research and development , agriculture and most importantly railways

I agree.

Basically, you kind of missed the point of my posts; the context to which I responded was essentially the reason I bothered to post at all. You take away the context and many things become confusing. So please also read the posts to which I was responding.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

do you really think , chinese would come to our aid in a conflict
They were asked for help in 1971 , they never responded
In 1999 in Kargil it was the chinese who gave musharraf's leaked audio tape from a chinese hotel to americans and they gave it to RAW
which RAW used to create the narrative against pakistan


I think Bajwa and Musharraf both understood , it is impossible for both India and pakistan to get other side of Kashmir
It's better to resolve the issue and move to solve other internal current and future problems

We just need Chinese aid and supplies. Nothing more. We have enough people to do the fighting. Also, do you have the links to the evidence that confirms your abive allegations? IF what you say is true then remember to post the links here.

 

[Vapnope]

Lets not dwell into that. There are multiple examples, many later rising to General officer ranks who continued fighting even after the ceasefire.

I was going to name some soldiers but then again he is engaging in typical rhetorical argument just to feel better. I don't think facts matter to these people.

On topic: Will OP take the Hamid's Mir words about PTI and Imran khan just like he took his words for Pakistan army and Gen Bajwa? We all know the answer already !

 

[Crimson Blue]

On topic: Will OP take the Hamid's Mir words about PTI and Imran khan just like he took his words for Pakistan army and Gen Bajwa? We all know the answer already !

What Hamid Mir said was already being discussed on twitted since 2022, its nothing new.

There were 2 dozen journalists in those meetings; Naseem Zahra & Imran Riaz Khan has verified all these discussions. Moeed Pirzada and Ayaz Syed have already made similar claims about Bajwa and Army back in 2022.

So please do not make it just about Hamid Mir.

 

[airmarshal]

Haven't seen a bigger coward and a hypocrite then Bajwa. His ascent to top position shows the problem is in institute's structure.

The army is supposed to prepare to fight war not tell how to avoid it. No one is asking to go to war with India. But given the current situation, economic and political, how will army fight a war if it's imposed on it? This is what nation pays them for. This is what they're supposed to do.

If these generals are such cowards and they can't fight a war, we should disband army and use the money for economic development. We can't raise cowards and be in political and economic mess at the same time.

 

[airmarshal]

Why you all are focused on who's going to help and supply Pakistan with weapons

Look at the other side of picture
Who's going to supply weapons to India?
Surely not west and Russia which itself is busy in war
Will be way hard for them to supply weapons to another country

I firmly believe if a conventional war happened
Pakistan will surely get more help from china than india will get from russia.

Turkey is another option for Pakistan.
And not to forgot the Islamic world will also back Pakistan
Pakistani will definitely be in a better position if we had a leader with courage at that time

Pakistan will lose any war any way. Our economic situation doesn't afford us diplomatic clout. To win a war, we need a strong diplomacy otherwise we wouldn't have retreated from Kargil.