PAF to take part in the Green Flag and Red Flag exercises at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.

[WaLeEdK2]

Israeli air force isn't the best in the world, but neither is Pakistan, and any claim of Pakistani air superiority in six days war while Israel had complete air superiority as a fact in the six days war, doesn't make sense and illusional

No one is saying Pakistan is the best airforce either. But Pakistanis did better against the Israelis than what Israelis did against Pakistanis. That's what he's trying to say. There's NO way that a handful of PAF volunteers can change the outcome of a war. Everybody knows that.

 

[DavidSling]

No one is saying Pakistan is the best airforce either. But Pakistanis did better against the Israelis than what Israelis did against Pakistanis. That's what he's trying to say. There's NO way that a handful of PAF volunteers can change the outcome of a war. Everybody knows that.

and Im saying there's no proff regardin this, while some sources tend to believe it, there's no evidence regarding the track record of shooting " 12 israeli warplanes without a single lose", and it seems even more unreasonable while looking at the number of air to air loses in the wars.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Israeli air force isn't the best in the world, but neither is Pakistan, and any claim of Pakistani air superiority in six days war while Israel had complete air superiority as a fact in the six days war, doesn't make sense and illusional

Were not just because of the numbers.
Israeli jets were defeating their American counterparts by a lot.

 

[DavidSling]

Were not just because of the numbers.
Israeli jets were defeating their American counterparts by a lot.

Does it matter because of what? We're still not number 1, and I don't see any reason we need to be, our air force is outranking those of others in the region, and it's good enough for the near future

 

[TOPGUN]

PAF & IAF (Israeli) are one of the top best air forces in the world simple is that.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

and Im saying there's no proff regardin this, while some sources tend to believe it, there's no evidence regarding the track record of shooting " 12 israeli warplanes without a single lose", and it seems even more unreasonable while looking at the number of air to air loses in the wars.

I guarantee the losses were of Arabs. But i think in the 6 day war Israel lost around 15-20 jets (correct me if I'm wrong) and Ezer Weizmann had great respect for AM Nur Khan. Who's to say it was not Pakistani pilots who took them down? Do you have proof that Arab pilots took down an Israeli jet? There are Israelis accept what happened in 1967.

 

[Beny Karachun]

I guarantee the losses were of Arabs. But i think in the 6 day war Israel lost around 15-20 jets (correct me if I'm wrong) and Ezer Weizmann had great respect for AM Nur Khan. Who's to say it was not Pakistani pilots who took them down? Do you have proof that Arab pilots took down an Israeli jet? There are Israelis accept what happened in 1967.

Do you have proof that the Pakistanis shot down any of our jet fighters?
Because every single known source I can see either doesn't mention that either says that there is no evidence.

 

[DavidSling]

I like how people in this forum already made a fact out of this fiction, while it's not even true.
The almighty pakistani pilots shoot down Israeli pilots and still Israel gained complete air superiority without a single enemy aircraft in the air?
Where were the pakistani pilots? drinking coffie? Soviet pilots were shoot down, but not the Pakistanies, no no
as for numbers
Throughout all of the Arab-Israeli Wars, the kill-to-loss ratio in air combat has been heavily in favor of the Israelis.

During the 1956 Sinai Campaign, the kill-to-loss ratio in air-to-air combat was 7-to-2 in Israel's favor.

During the 1967 Six Day War, it was 60-to-12.

During the 1967-1970 War of Attrition, the kill-to-loss ratio was 113-to-4 in air-to-air combat. Far more aircraft were lost to missile defenses and AAA.

During the 1973 Yom Kippur War it was 277-to-15 in air-to-air combat. Israel's losses during the war were heavy - but came primarily from missile batteries and AAA.

During the 1982 Lebanon War (and in the years that followed), the ratio was 88-to-0 in Israel's favor.

These ratios include both Arab pilots, as well as Russians and Pakistanis who flew on behalf of the Arab armed forces. It's been reported that Pakistani pilots flew in the air forces of Jordan, Egypt and Iraq during the 1967 Six Day War. Pakistani volunteers reportedly also served in the Syrian air force during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

I have seen sources that claim that up to 3 of the Arab air-to-air kills from the Six Day War were scored by Pakistani pilots (two from aircraft flying out of Iraq and one from a pilot flying out of Jordan). I have seen similar claims for 2 or 3 kills (depending on the source) from the Yom Kippur War as being claimed by Pakistani pilots. These numbers are not unreasonable. Anything more than this, however, is purely based in fantasy.

I has been my experience that many (although not all) Pakistani commentators - like so much of the Islamic world today - have a tendency to lie about everything as a matter of habit. The more outrageous the lie, the more likely they are to tell it.


The following is an abbreviated listing of websites that deal with the Heyl HaAvir:

Official Website
Includes a map of air bases and a small photo-gallery
http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Home...e.aspx?lang=EN

Oren Rozen's Website
Includes kill and loss statistics from 1948 to 1998
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/

Attributed Israeli Air Combat Victories
Excellent, detailed listing of Israeli air-to-air victories, including an extensive bibliography
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/IAFclaims.html

Israeli Weapons
Generic website profiling Israeli weapons and military history
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/index.html

taken from Israel Military forum.

I guarantee the losses were of Arabs. But i think in the 6 day war Israel lost around 15-20 jets (correct me if I'm wrong) and Ezer Weizmann had great respect for AM Nur Khan. Who's to say it was not Pakistani pilots who took them down? Do you have proof that Arab pilots took down an Israeli jet? There are Israelis accept what happened in 1967.

read my previous posts.....
while majority of Israelies call it a lie, and for a good reason, arab and muslim countries usually lied when it came to casualties in their wars, specialy if it was by Israeli hand.
the probability of Pakistan shooting so many Israeli aircrafts as your countrymen claim, while Israel had complete air superiority over the skys, without losing a single aircraft, is unreasonable, specialy without proff to your claims.
During the 1967 Six Day War, it was 60-to-12.

 

[MastanKhan]

I guarantee the losses were of Arabs. But i think in the 6 day war Israel lost around 15-20 jets (correct me if I'm wrong) and Ezer Weizmann had great respect for AM Nur Khan. Who's to say it was not Pakistani pilots who took them down? Do you have proof that Arab pilots took down an Israeli jet? There are Israelis accept what happened in 1967.

Hi,

You post makes no sense---. Why are you forcing the israeli members to create further animosity towards pakistan.

If pak pilots had taken them down---they would have bragged about it---.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

@MastanKhan. I highly doubt a professional AF pilot would brag about it. There not some naive children attempting to gain popularity.

But if you want to put it that way then Sattar Alvi has revealed on a talk show (which I'm sure you've seen), without bragging, how he took down an Israeli mirage in detail but they deny that also.

But at this point it does not matter whether they took them down or not. Both are highly professional and well trained air forces that have had their share of glorious moments and have been honoured for it by both their respective nations and others as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan. I highly doubt a professional AF pilot would brag about it. There not some naive children attempting to gain popularity.

But if you want to put it that way then Sattar Alvi has revealed on a talk show (which I'm sure you've seen), without bragging, how he took down an Israeli mirage in detail but they deny that also.

But at this point it does not matter whether they took them down or not. Both are highly professional and well trained air forces that have had their share of glorious moments and have been honoured for it by both their respective nations and others as well.

Hi,

I don't think that you got the message---. Stop posting thoughtless comments about paf pilots taking out israeli pilots---about the 12 israeli aircraft that were shot down---.

 

[WaLeEdK2]

Hi,

I don't think that you got the message---. Stop posting thoughtless comments about paf pilots taking out israeli pilots---about the 12 israeli aircraft that were shot down---.

I never said that PAF pilots shot down those israeli jets. but what i am saying is that the possibility exists. Don't jump to conclusions. The other member was claiming it to be true not me.

 

[wiseone2]

Training is a double edged sword. Might be shocking to think that somehow training can somehow be negative, but it can be and it does.

Training must contains repetition. The core of training is to do something well, not without, but with minimal conscious thoughts. But before you begins any training regiment, you must first select, hopefully wisely, that something that you believe is worthwhile reducing to doing with minimal conscious thoughts.

Here lies the danger of training: Reinforcement of bad habits.

You can use any other word, such as entrenchment or institutionalization, but the result is the same, that you take a bad habit and make it a core function. Over time, you WILL have a library of functions that includes good and bad habits, and you cannot tell which from which. This affects an individual all the way up to the larger organization.

So how do you as an individual or organization evolve ? By exposing those core functions to stresses and criticisms. What worked well before as a good habit may not be as effective today. For the relevancy of this discussion, take the extreme of warfare. Nothing stresses and criticizes better than war. But that extreme is not where we want to be. War causes us to lose three vital resources: humans, materials, and institutional memories. If there is such a thing as a destructive test, war is that test. War is the ultimate stressor to your mettle. You face an outsider who have a different library of core functions and when those functions make contact, losses are the ultimate criticisms.

Your choice on whether air warriors of Pakistan want to evolve or not.

fighter aircraft are complicated machines. they require repetition in the form of training. it is true war is the real test. But Pakistan and India do not make their own combat aircraft to elevate strengths by improvization.