Obama: ‘We gave Iraq the chance to have an inclusive democracy’

[Thoryalai Zazai]

Yes. Russians are much better.

How so? I'm interested in hearing your view.

 

[vostok]

How so? I'm interested in hearing your view.

I think you're asking specifically about Russian in Afghanistan?
Russian built factories, schools. Russian created Afghan space program and Afghan cosmonaut even flew into space. Russian brutally fought poppy cultivation.

 

[Thoryalai Zazai]

I think you're asking specifically about Russian in Afghanistan?
Russian built factories, schools. Russian created Afghan space program and Afghan cosmonaut even flew into space. Russian brutally fought poppy cultivation.

We neither asked for nor cared for what you did, beginning with your meddling and subsequent invasion in support of your reckless puppets. No, I wasn't asking about the Russians in Afghanistan, for you haven't any ground to stand on there. We didn't want you, we didn't like you, we loathed your slave-minded ideological tyranny and those ridiculous round hats and your military goose steps. Whereas you launched the destruction of the nation state and sovereignty we took pride in until the Communist coup, the Americans found an Afghanistan in name only and have helped lay the foundations for a future that Afghans are building for themselves. They've been teaching our people how to fish, while you forced your rotten fish down our throats, whether we liked it or not. Even some of your ex comrades - some of them my friends - are coming around to view the Americans in a different light, which is saying something right there. There's truly no competition between you when it comes to Afghanistan...I still can't wait to see the back of them, but only as occupiers and not because we want to sever ties with them. We’re pretty happy with a small American military base to remain indefinitely, provided that they'll have us!

I am more interested in general terms, beyond Afghanistan if you’d care to share....

 

[Spring Onion]

We neither asked for nor cared for what you did, beginning with your meddling and subsequent invasion in support of your reckless puppets. No, I wasn't asking about the Russians in Afghanistan, for you haven't any ground to stand on there. We didn't want you, we didn't like you, we loathed your slave-minded ideological tyranny and those ridiculous round hats and your military goose steps. Whereas you launched the destruction of the nation state and sovereignty we took pride in until the Communist coup, the Americans found an Afghanistan in name only and have helped lay the foundations for a future that Afghans are building for themselves. They've been teaching our people how to fish, while you forced your rotten fish down our throats, whether we liked it or not. Even some of your ex comrades - some of them my friends - are coming around to view the Americans in a different light, which is saying something right there. There's truly no competition between you when it comes to Afghanistan...I still can't wait to see the back of them, but only as occupiers and not because we want to sever ties with them. We’re pretty happy with a small American military base to remain indefinitely though, provided that they'll have us!

I am more interested in general terms, beyond Afghanistan if you’d care to share....

The reckless puppets were Afghans and they invited the Russian Invasion.

wasnt it ?

US may not mind ISIS gaining some power in Iraq to weaken Iran.

I dont think so US will want that

The media reports say that US may once again turn to Iraq in the wake of ISIS growing control/activities

 

[Thoryalai Zazai]

The reckless puppets were Afghans and they invited the Russian Invasion.

wasnt it ?

That's what I've written, yes.

 

[Tshering22]

Nonsense. This idiot Obama made the situation worse in Iraq. ISIS his country's creation has caused several thousand deaths in a matter of days.

CIA has transformed entire globe into chaos.

 

[Thoryalai Zazai]

CIA has transformed entire globe into chaos.

....I can say more, but some things are best left unsaid. Afghanistan has so far emerged a winner, albeit very painfully so and for too long. However, that's enough for me to remain grateful to what we've gained so far.

It's not just Pakistani support for the Taliban that gets us, but the fact that the entire Muslim world were indifferent to the pain and suffering of my people. If anything, they all contributed to Afghanistan's misery in one way or another. Many of the Arab states effectively prodded their trouble makers into fighting their great "jihad" in Afghanistan. On the whole, they were useless fighters and cowardly to boot. Most Mujahideen do not even recall ever seeing them in the fight, but there they were, proliferating their twisted ideologies, marrying Afghan women and then leaving them with children, and finally, using Afghanistan to lure the Americans into a fight.

As much as I despise the Communists, I've came to appreciate Turkey's outreach to Najib's government, as they clearly did not want Afghanistan to decend into the savagery that followed. That makes the Turks stand out as the only Muslim nation to have stood by Afghanistan, even when at the time I saw this as betrayal.

 

[vostok]

We neither asked for nor cared for what you did, beginning with your meddling and subsequent invasion in support of your reckless puppets. No, I wasn't asking about the Russians in Afghanistan, for you haven't any ground to stand on there. We didn't want you, we didn't like you, we loathed your slave-minded ideological tyranny and those ridiculous round hats and your military goose steps. Whereas you launched the destruction of the nation state and sovereignty we took pride in until the Communist coup, the Americans found an Afghanistan in name only and have helped lay the foundations for a future that Afghans are building for themselves. They've been teaching our people how to fish, while you forced your rotten fish down our throats, whether we liked it or not. Even some of your ex comrades - some of them my friends - are coming around to view the Americans in a different light, which is saying something right there. There's truly no competition between you when it comes to Afghanistan...I still can't wait to see the back of them, but only as occupiers and not because we want to sever ties with them. We’re pretty happy with a small American military base to remain indefinitely, provided that they'll have us!

I am more interested in general terms, beyond Afghanistan if you’d care to share....

Americans do not teach you anything. They teach you only to grow opium and do terrorism in other countries. And if you believe in their cheap fairy tales about democracy - then you are unlikely can understand what is happening in your country (look in Iraq or Libya - they promised stability and democracy to them).
The USSR had a master plan - the 200 huge construction plants, based on which Afghanistan could build own self-sustaining economy.
USSR helped local socialists build the economy in Afghanistan. Americans, except opium trade and training terrorists for the region and around the world not engaged in anything.
If you believe western media - than my words to you are empty. If you are looking for the truth - you will find it yourself.

 

[Tshering22]

....I can say more, but some things are best left unsaid. Afghanistan has so far emerged a winner, albeit very painfully so and for too long. However, that's enough for me to remain grateful to what we've gained so far.

The victory was at a serious cost. I agree.

It's not just Pakistani support for the Taliban that gets us, but the fact that the entire Muslim world were indifferent to the pain and suffering of my people. If anything, they all contributed to Afghanistan's misery in one way or another. Many of the Arab states effectively prodded their trouble makers into fighting their great "jihad" in Afghanistan. On the whole, they were useless fighters and cowardly to boot. Most Mujahideen do not even recall ever seeing them in the fight, but there they were, proliferating their twisted ideologies, marrying Afghan women and then leaving them with children, and finally, using Afghanistan to lure the Americans into a fight.

Your conservatism to religion is the easiest way to motivate Afghans to come close to Arabia. Since your religion originates there and many common people have emotional sensibilities in Arabia, it doesn't take long for wahabis to easily twist an innocent child's mind into fighting a war that is non-existent, just for their purpose. Think about it; in the recent days, how many youth living in UK, Austria and other European countries have gone to Syria, fought and died?

And these are not some poor countries who will do it for money. They are rich nations with very prosperous and happy people, leading massively peaceful lives than anyone else. Those who are of Pakistani/Arab/Somali or other descent get radicalized but also quite a handful of europeans who were non-muslims, convert and then go to fight in Syria and other areas.

I was shocked to see how many such reports were emerging across Europe.

Who finances these lunatics? Take a smart guess.

As much as I despise the Communists, I've came to appreciate Turkey's outreach to Najib's government, as they clearly did not want Afghanistan to decend into the savagery that followed. That makes the Turks stand out as the only Muslim nation to have stood by Afghanistan, even when at the time I saw this as betrayal.

Turkey is not exactly a muslim nation. They have a very complex blend of their original Tengrii Turk culture mixed with mystical islamic beliefs like sufism and other philosophy, making them far more mature and open-minded than compared to salafists of the gulf region. They adopted a non-religious, non-emotional and a very balanced approach towards governance that had a healthy dose of Turkish nationalism thanks to Ataturk, which gave them their modern image and much success across the world as a progressive, warm, development-oriented and friendly country.

Afghanistan's best model is to adopt a Turkish model of development. It doesn't mean that you need to stick to the West but also develop ties equally on the basis of business.

Russia did invade you under the invitation of Najibullah regime, but remember, long before they invaded, they helped to transform you into a modern society of educated professionals and students. Afghanistan was one of the fastest growing nations in the region and had a powerful military.

See:

Soviet Union transformed you into a state that could have been the Turkey of Asia. You'd have had a successful industrial base like Brazil or Sweden have from US side. I am also not very fond of Communists as I am proud of my culture, but you got to admit they were far far far better than the religious nutjobs and theocrats that destroyed Afghanistan. They encouraged scientific research, they opened up schools to educate women, they helped you in developing power through construction of dams, roadways, etc, developed healthcare for you.

I know this because my country also has received massive funding and help from Russia. What ISRO is today has a lot of Russian help since Soviet era. Bokaro steel plant is another example; Bombay High offshore oil rig another example.

Russians had to strike to save Taliban; although they failed, your country took a turn for the worse.

We Indians will help you, but you can only take a horse till the green pastures. The horse has to take the initiative to be strong and graze on the good grass, digest it and derive nutrition to grow stronger.

Afghans should throw away the tribal and clansfolk mentality (I come from a part of India that also has this problem of 'this tribe and that tribe' mentality and it has cost my entire region dearly in terms of development).

A Pashtun should be able to see no difference between a Hazara, Farsi or Uzbek or any other ethnicity. You guys being of same religion means that you can even marry each other without any feud. Inter-mingle together like a proud country. Look at us. Churchill hated us and told that we won't last more than a couple of years. Today, his successor comes to our country for seeking trade and commerce ties.

You can also do it.

But you have to put in hard work of understanding to keep religion and tribe aside and focus on development and human values. You have to believe that you are Afghans first then Uzbeks, Hazaras, Tajiks, Farsis etc. That's the only way out.

And no one can help you better than yourselves. Only after your own will, can we, the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese etc help you.

 

[Thoryalai Zazai]

Americans do not teach you anything. They teach you only to grow opium and do terrorism in other countries.

Give it a rest Vostok...save it for Russia Today. The Americans are what they are and you are what you are, for they've a superior understanding of what makes people tick. This is just an honest observation and apparently, not many Afghans nor Pakistanis know Americans like I do.

And if you believe in their cheap fairy tales about democracy - then you are unlikely can understand what is happening in your country (look in Iraq or Libya - they promised stability and democracy to them).

Democracy on the other hand is not for everyone and the US isn't a Democracy...it's something much better than that. The move towards a Liberal Democracy was already a century in the making in Afghanistan, until rudely interrupted by your uneccessary meddling. To us, the Americans did not impose a regime upon us, but offered what the old elites and liberal minded Afghans already wanted, with the exception of some. So sure, it can all fall off the wagon again, but I'll punt we'll get there in the next 20 years or so.

The USSR had a master plan - the 200 huge construction plants, based on which Afghanistan could build own self-sustaining economy.
USSR helped local socialists build the economy in Afghanistan. Americans, except opium trade and training terrorists for the region and around the world not engaged in anything.

For the record, I do not view Russians as innate scoundrels and have enjoyed the company of Russian friends. I do believe your leaders genuinely wanted to help their dependancies in Afghanistan until they exhausted themselves into bankruptcy. You were far more honourable than some of the others who essentially succeeded in deliberately turning Afghanistan into an open air mental asylum. However, your ideology blinded you from understanding human nature. Even in post-Soviet Russia, I think you are incapable of understanding people like the Americans do. That's your weakness as far as I'm concerned. I'm not questioning your intelligence, which is admitedly admirable, but I am questioning your collective psychology.

If you believe western media - than my words to you are empty. If you are looking for the truth - you will find it yourself.

I trust nobody, leave alone politicians and their water carriers in the media. I will take issue with the Americans if and when the not so coencidental actually happens. Until then, we shall enjoy the ride as they're really all we've got right now and you know it.

 

[vostok]

Give it a rest Vostok...save it for Russia Today. The Americans are what they are and you are what you are, for they've a superior understanding of what makes people tick. This is just an honest observation and apparently, not many Afghans nor Pakistanis know Americans like I do.

Did they built you a lot of schools and factories for you? Is there a US-Afghan joint space program?
Americans - the heirs of the British Empire. They have colonial thinking. None of them ever call you "brothers" and none of them will recognize you as equals. And Russian quite sincerely believed brothers all those who asked for help. Now it's hard to believe, but when Thatcher in England began massive fire miners, the workers in the USSR voluntarily transferred money for one day a week in favor of British miners.
USSR helped Afghanistan before the war, and helped well. If Americans do not intrigue, Afghanistan would be a bit of Libya under Gaddafi, Syria or Iraq in those days, until Hussein not flirted with America and began to do mistakes.
Americans will never help you to defeat terrorism, because terrorism - an American invention for destabilisation in key regions. While there is the United States - global terrorism will continue to exist. And Afghanistan under Americans forever doomed to be the opium factory and nothing more. Because opium - very profitable business, and business - the only thing that matters to the United States.

 

[Thoryalai Zazai]

First of all, as with anything I've not responded to below, you can assume that I agree with you more or less. I'll just focus on the stuff I disagree with

Turkey is not exactly a muslim nation. They have a very complex blend of their original Tengrii Turk culture mixed with mystical islamic beliefs like sufism and other philosophy, making them far more mature and open-minded than compared to salafists of the gulf region. They adopted a non-religious, non-emotional and a very balanced approach towards governance that had a healthy dose of Turkish nationalism thanks to Ataturk, which gave them their modern image and much success across the world as a progressive, warm, development-oriented and friendly country.

Turkey is very much a Muslim nation and with every move towards more liberties, she becomes all the more Muslim to my reckoning. There's a difference between a Mulsim and an Islamist you know. As Central Asians, our cultural roots are far more in alignment than they are different. You should know that Afghanistan has a major Sufi heritage with Jallaludin Rumi as one of the more famous ones. It was also Ibn Sina (Latinized as Avacenna) that took into introducing the Greek classics in the Muslim world. There were countless others besides them, I assure you.

Afghans are actually cultural conservatives, as was seen when the invading Umayyad Arabs were defeated in Zabulistan, Kabulistan and the Hindukush. They were not only converting people via the sword, but they also taxed the converted as they did with the non-Muslims. The place was the most troublesome of all Arab conquests and only northern Afghanistan had come under their sway. Finally, the situation eventually gave rise to General Abu Muslim Khorasani who took the war into Syria itself, overthrew the Caliphate and enthroned the Abbasid Caliph by moving the capital to Baghdad. That was the begining of Central Asian rule across the Muslim world until the rise and demise of the Ottomans and the Mughuls.

Everyone's wrong to assert that Afghans are motivated by Islam, as most Afghans haven't even read the Quran in their local languages. The fact is that we are too egalitarian to take kindly to people pushing us around, which essentially galvanizes the sort of rage that defines us.

Afghanistan's best model is to adopt a Turkish model of development. It doesn't mean that you need to stick to the West but also develop ties equally on the basis of business.

...you're preaching to the converted here, although what I've in mind goes further than the Turkish model.

Russia did invade you under the invitation of Najibullah regime, but remember, long before they invaded, they helped to transform you into a modern society of educated professionals and students. Afghanistan was one of the fastest growing nations in the region and had a powerful military.

Apologise for the needed rebuttal here, but this is historically inacurate. First of all, Najib was the guy they left behind as the one to disband Communism and replace it with a secual nationalist government. Afghans however did not all play ball, as he was regarded as the Russian puppet who ran their torture chambers for them as the head of KHAD that reported directly to Moscow. The shameless Communist cretin who begged for the Soviets to save his sorry backside was Nur Mohammed Taraki, who after his murderous coup was slammed by the people.

You are also wrong about the Soviets "transforming" Afghan society, for they did no such thing. Leading up to the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was already transforming herself and mostly by encouraging French, German, English and American aided educational institutions that were truly fantastic in the output of human capital. In the 1950's, PM Daud Khan walked outside with his wife unveiled and singlehandedly unleashed the liberation of Afghan women by virtue of his charismatic leadership, rather than some silly government mandate that only works for slave minded peons of the world.

The Soviets in fact reuined the quality of education upon their invasion of Afghanistan. There's a world of difference between those Afghans who graduated from University up until the Communist coup in the 1970's and those who did so during the Soviet times. Today, the new human Capital output is again showing higher standards, if not even higher that before.

Ths Soviet Union transformed you into a state that could have been the Turkey of Asia. You'd have had a successful industrial base like Brazil or Sweden have from US side. I am also not very fond of Communists as I am proud of my culture, but you got to admit they were far far far better than the religious nutjobs and theocrats that destroyed Afghanistan. They encouraged scientific research, they opened up schools to educate women, they helped you in developing power through construction of dams, roadways, etc, developed healthcare for you.

I'm sorry...I don't mean to be rude here, but you need to get a clue. The Soviets were a disaster....if I didn't know any better, I'd say you've been listening to way too many Afghan Communists. That would be akin to asking a loser why he actually lost...if he had been that perceptive, surely he wouldn't have lost in the first place.

Afghanistan was not overrun by Islamists when the Soviets meddled in our affairs and urged their puppets to launch their coup. However, when that did happen and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, the millions who fled to Pakistan and Iran absolutely turned to the Islamist ideology.

I know this because my country also has received massive funding and help from Russia. What ISRO is today has a lot of Russian help since Soviet era. Bokaro steel plant is another example; Bombay High offshore oil rig another example.

Actually, India amounted to something when your leaders began to turn to the American way of doing things, beginning with your embrace of relatively free markets in the 1990's. Until then, you were actually behind Pakistan in economic terms.

We Indians will help you, but you can only take a horse till the green pastures. The horse has to take the initiative to be strong and graze on the good grass, digest it and derive nutrition to grow stronger.

Oh please....Bwaaaa Haaaa Haaaa Haaaaa......it's actually: "you can take the horse to the river, but you can't make him drink from it"....hahahaha......no, seriously, I like Indians and appreciate your nation's friendship, although you can do with a little PR here...lol...

You can also do it.

...shucks, thank you for the encouragement

Afghanistan would be a bit of Libya under Gaddafi, Syria or Iraq in those days....

That's refreshing to know....

 

[vostok]

That's refreshing to know....

Before the American intervention it was quite rich and prosperous nations, and the people who lived there were proud and independent. Once.

 

[Tshering22]

First of all, as with anything I've not responded to below, you can assume that I agree with you more or less. I'll just focus on the stuff I disagree with



Turkey is very much a Muslim nation and with every move towards more liberties, she becomes all the more Muslim to my reckoning. There's a difference between a Mulsim and an Islamist you know. As Central Asians, our cultural roots are far more in alignment than they are different. You should know that Afghanistan has a major Sufi heritage with Jallaludin Rumi as one of the more famous ones. It was also Ibn Sina (Latinized as Avacenna) that took into introducing the Greek classics in the Muslim world. There were countless others besides them, I assure you.

Afghans are actually cultural conservatives, as was seen when the invading Umayyad Arabs were defeated in Zabulistan, Kabulistan and the Hindukush. They were not only converting people via the sword, but they also taxed the converted as they did with the non-Muslims. The place was the most troublesome of all Arab conquests and only northern Afghanistan had come under their sway. Finally, the situation eventually gave rise to General Abu Muslim Khorasani who took the war into Syria itself, overthrew the Caliphate and enthroned the Abbasid Caliph by moving the capital to Baghdad. That was the begining of Central Asian rule across the Muslim world until the rise and demise of the Ottomans and the Mughuls.

Everyone's wrong to assert that Afghans are motivated by Islam, as most Afghans haven't even read the Quran in their local languages. The fact is that we are too egalitarian to take kindly to people pushing us around, which essentially galvanizes the sort of rage that defines us.



...you're preaching to the converted here, although what I've in mind goes further than the Turkish model.



Apologise for the needed rebuttal here, but this is historically inacurate. First of all, Najib was the guy they left behind as the one to disband Communism and replace it with a secual nationalist government. Afghans however did not all play ball, as he was regarded as the Russian puppet who ran their torture chambers for them as the head of KHAD that reported directly to Moscow. The shameless Communist cretin who begged for the Soviets to save his sorry backside was Nur Mohammed Taraki, who after his murderous coup was slammed by the people.

You are also wrong about the Soviets "transforming" Afghan society, for they did no such thing. Leading up to the Soviet invasion, Afghanistan was already transforming herself and mostly by encouraging French, German, English and American aided educational institutions that were truly fantastic in the output of human capital. In the 1950's, PM Daud Khan walked outside with his wife unveiled and singlehandedly unleashed the liberation of Afghan women by virtue of his charismatic leadership, rather than some silly government mandate that only works for slave minded peons of the world.

The Soviets in fact reuined the quality of education upon their invasion of Afghanistan. There's a world of difference between those Afghans who graduated from University up until the Communist coup in the 1970's and those who did so during the Soviet times. Today, the new human Capital output is again showing higher standards, if not even higher that before.



I'm sorry...I don't mean to be rude here, but you need to get a clue. The Soviets were a disaster....if I didn't know any better, I'd say you've been listening to way too many Afghan Communists. That would be akin to asking a loser why he actually lost...if he had been that perceptive, surely he wouldn't have lost in the first place.

Afghanistan was not overrun by Islamists when the Soviets meddled in our affairs and urged their puppets to launch their coup. However, when that did happen and the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, the millions who fled to Pakistan and Iran absolutely turned to the Islamist ideology.



Actually, India amounted to something when your leaders began to turn to the American way of doing things, beginning with your embrace of relatively free markets in the 1990's. Until then, you were actually behind Pakistan in economic terms.



Oh please....Bwaaaa Haaaa Haaaa Haaaaa......it's actually: "you can take the horse to the river, but you can't make him drink from it"....hahahaha......no, seriously, I like Indians and appreciate your nation's friendship, although you can do with a little PR here...lol...



...shucks, thank you for the encouragement



That's refreshing to know....

The phrase that I said was a hindi phrase translated into English. But you got the point.

Thanks for correcting some facts which I had wrong but you cannot deny that it was the same NATO nations that ruined you with Taliban.

You need to be self reliant. And that is only possible through a sense of equality and desire for development.

Other than that, we can always help you as friends.

 

[daring dude]

The reckless puppets were Afghans and they invited the Russian Invasion.

wasnt it ?



I dont think so US will want that

The media reports say that US may once again turn to Iraq in the wake of ISIS growing control/activities

I DONT THINK SO,, as Kerry met SISI in egypt.. as after Husni mubarak he is the biggest asset of #USA as #ISRAEL's or Savior from other side... and also Zionist mythological bonding with egypt pyramids made it to make sure for Egypt's Support for changing Mid east map also... and as SISI, ISIS seams to be his synonym..
and even Iran is also USA's bug asset, and he put him their to threaten Sunni and other sect of Muslims in the region an make it's heaven for American and Israelli Weapons... so as #TTP, #Al_Qaeda, #ISIS, #ISIL or even most of the militant wings are the assets of USA or CIA... so keep that all in mind...