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Obama to withdraw 30,000 troops against Pentagon advice

Civilized citizenry.
A civilized citizenry follows civil law. Citizens who agree to follow civil law therefore operate by a moral code. A moral code must have a foundation. Many philosophers over the centuries have tried to build this foundation without religion. It may be possible, but only for very mature and self-reflective minds. Many people today who say they have no religion really do have one, like environmentalists who blindly believe in Nature, without realizing that Nature also contains harshness and ugliness, or considering that Nature is merely an expression of G-d' will.

what came first religion or human learning and adaptation ?
I believe archaeologists are divided on this question. (In my opinion that may have been because before one could write things down human learning was religion, as it still is today in the sword-making ceremony of traditional Japanese artisans.)
 
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A civilized citizenry follows civil law. Citizens who agree to follow civil law therefore operate by a moral code. A moral code must have a foundation. Many philosophers over the centuries have tried to build this foundation without religion. It may be possible, but only for very mature and self-reflective minds. Many people today who say they have no religion really do have one, like environmentalists who blindly believe in Nature, without realizing that Nature also contains harshness and ugliness, or considering that Nature is merely an expression of G-d' will.

I believe archaeologists are divided on this question. (In my opinion that may have been because before one could write things down human learning was religion, as it still is today in the sword-making ceremony of traditional Japanese artisans.)

sorry guy, you won't be able to sell me that cup of Joe. "civilized society follows moral code." - nope . Do you consider the US a civilized society ? If you do ( obvious) then they allow freedom of expression, speech and other rights that have so called " immoral" codes allowed that religion won't ever allow. ****, legalized prostitution, Gay rights, strip joins,medicinal marijuana, KKK rights to free speech and gathering etc etc I can go on and on...

A civilized citzenry or country does not need to follow any religious path.
 
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Of course everyone needs to be safe, but that does not say you allow religious fanatics/heretics to walk in and take over.

Having served in then West Pakistan 1963-65 I do have some understanding of the culture, tribalism. Likewise when I was for a few years as a young man, after 5 years active USAF service (including in Pakistan) and with 25 more years in the USAF Reserve, several assignemnts on the USAF Air Staff in the Pentagon, then in several JCS agency and level commands, such as HQ US Special Operations Command, I continued to professionally study in a miliary and economic sense Pakistan and the SW Asia Region.

What I saw and still see is "somehow" a multi-cultural, multi-religious freedom of religions and no religion, free enterprise evoluation inside India has made it one of the top three economic powers in the world today even though India still has a long way to go in resolving class differences and helping more of it's total population become better off in all respects.

Point is that India is "the" democratic and economic model...and the same levels of brain power exist in Pakistan but somehow Paksitan just hasn't been able to go the fuller democracy route, and I admit, Pakistan has been cursed with hold over religious nut cases from the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

All in all India is a positive case study for Pakistan to use, not abuse or misuse, or mistrust. India is not Pakistan's natural enemy. Pakistan's backwardness in religion and clannish tribalism are your downfall thus far.
 
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Obama’s Afghanistan withdrawal: another sign of America’s decline?
Posted on June 28, 2011
By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

On Wednesday, President Obama announced he would order a gradual troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. On a superficial level there is nothing surprising about this decision. Mr. Obama is simply implementing what he had promised the American people in 2009 when he agreed to honor Gen. Stanley McChrystal’s request for more troops. The surge was always going to be temporary, especially in view of budgetary pressures caused by the financial crisis.

A second glance at the president’s speech reveals something more interesting, however. In between the lines, what he said amounts to the elimination of a key component in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, and the elevation of a minor practice.

The eliminated component is the counterinsurgency program that in practice is a euphemism for nation-building. The elevated one is the use of drones and targeted bombing of selected individuals and groups. This is a new counterterrorism strategy. It is sugarcoated in grand speeches such as those delivered by the president in Cairo two years ago, and it is not difficult to sell to Americans who are struggling with the weight of economic problems.

Counterinsurgency vs. counterterrorism

The difference between counterinsurgency and counterterrorism is profound. The latter means targeting Al Qaeda and affiliates while seeking to minimize harm to the civilian populations where they operate. The former was more ambitious: to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban as well as Al Qaeda and to build a strong government that would marginalize radical Islam.

From the onset it was clear that killing Al Qaeda members was relatively easy and, thanks to drone technology, inexpensive in terms of American life. It was the nation-building aspect of counterinsurgency that was more controversial at home and more difficult to effect. The generals and military advisers of the previous and current administrations made it clear that counterinsurgency would only succeed if the military were given enough men, resources, and time.

Obama’s message to Gen. David Petraeus was clear: Time is up. Ten years, a trillion dollars, and 1,600 American casualties later, the White House is essentially abandoning the attempt to build law and order in Afghanistan.

When liberals began loving bombs

The political response to the speech was remarkable. It used to be that Democrats were more squeamish about the use of bombs of any kind. Liberals in America have tended to prefer soft power, and when hard power becomes inevitable, they insist that a United Nations or NATO force lead the way, as in Libya, all the time pressing for a minimum of civilian casualties. Imagine how these same liberals would have reacted three years ago if it had been President George W. Bush who had been ordering a campaign of targeted assassinations – not to mention overriding legal advice on the decision to launch air strikes against the Libyan government.

The strident calls from some Republicans, including several seeking the party’s nomination to run for president, to cut overseas troop levels even faster are notable because they suggest there is now a bipartisan consensus. But what is this consensus on and how strong is it? There appears to be a general agreement on the high cost of the war, the prevailing importance of domestic issues – above all the economy – and the need for Afghans to take responsibility for their destiny as soon as possible.
Does US roar then retreat?

By quietly conceding to Obama’s decision to expand the use of drones, liberals seem to have accepted the basic assumptions of Mr. Bush that terrorists are enemy combatants and that the US is at war. Try explaining to a Yemeni, Somali, or Afghan survivor of a drone attack that America is not at war with Islam and means well. Many in the US and around the world wonder if Obama’s speech – and the broad bipartisan support for it – is yet another sign of America’s decline. American power and weakness is often a matter of perception.

From the Taliban’s perspective, the withdrawal is a sign of US weakness and their impending victory. Not only the Taliban will see it this way: Iran and Syria’s regimes and the malignant units in the Pakistani military and secret service see a weak America that roars but retreats when the going gets tough. The short-term benefits of abandoning counterinsurgency may be politically appealing. The long-term costs may be greater than Obama anticipates.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of “Infidel” and “Nomad,” is a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

© 2011 Global Viewpoint Network/Tribune Media Services. Hosted online by The Christian Science Monitor.

Source: Christian Science Monitor
 
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By all means keep 100,000 soldiers in Afghanistan we all insist keep them there for another 10 years please
 
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In the short term, the WoT may have been problematic for Pakistan as it caused all the terrorist attacks, etc. In the long term though, it will cause America to break up into 10 pieces, which is not only good for Pakistan but for the rest of the world (barring Bharat).
 
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In the short term, the WoT may have been problematic for Pakistan as it caused all the terrorist attacks, etc. In the long term though, it will cause America to break up into 10 pieces, which is not only good for Pakistan but for the rest of the world (barring Bharat).

10 pieces ? :lol:

And why "barring Bharat" ? Its good for us also.
 
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Does 10 pieces sound too little? Perhaps I can see that. I will bump it up to 20.

As for why barring bharat? Well US staying in Afghanistan is in Bharat's interest and not in Pakistan's interest. That's why. When US will eventually leave, it will basically trigger a big shift in status quo.

All the equipment that Pakistan and Bharat get from US is basically nothing in front of the games being played in Afghanistan.
 
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Does 10 pieces sound too little? Perhaps I can see that. I will bump it up to 20.

I wish Hollywood/California becomes one separate state.

As for why barring bharat? Well US staying in Afghanistan is in Bharat's interest and not in Pakistan's interest. That's why. When US will eventually leave, it will basically trigger a big shift in status quo.

Yawn. Lets see then. More than the US it is the common Afghans who are more anti-Pakistani.

All the equipment that Pakistan and Bharat get from US is basically nothing in front of the games being played in Afghanistan.

None of our critical warfighting equipment comes from US. If we did not learn from your experiences with the US, we would have been the biggest fools.But we learnt.
 
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I wish Hollywood/California becomes one separate state.

That is a possibility, though I cannot guarantee it.

Yawn. Lets see then. More than the US it is the common Afghans who are more anti-Pakistani.

Common Afghans are irrelevant basically.

Lets see then? LOL. You know deep down it's gonna happen, that's why your government has been trying so hard to get US to stay in Afghanistan. All the hard work over the last 2-3 years will be lost for bharat.

None of our critical warfighting equipment comes from US. If we did not learn from your experiences with the US, we would have been the biggest fools.But we learnt.

That's not really my point. I was just giving an example.
 
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That is a possibility, though I cannot guarantee it.

And Hawaii another. I love that place.

Common Afghans are irrelevant basically.

Hmmm seems Pakistan has not learnt from its past mistakes

Lets see then? LOL. You know deep down it's gonna happen, that's why your government has been trying so hard to get US to stay in Afghanistan. All the hard work over the last 2-3 years will be lost for bharat.

On the contrary, all the all hardwork put up by the Pakistanis in propping up the anti-Afghan elements, even at the cost of their own national security and stability, has ensured that an entire generation of Afghans are virulently anti-Pakistan and much more favorable to India. I dont see anything dis-advantageous to India in this.

That's not really my point. I was just giving an example.

My point is your example is wrong.
 
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