"Next Generation Fighter Aircraft" (Formerly MCA)

[Veer]

My point of concern is that what are we looking for? I mean 280 MKIs 250 FGFA 250 LCA 250 MCA 200 MMRCA. What are we targeting dude?

Where is so much money coming from? And the most enthraling one, govt have agreed on all this.

Please advise on the number game.

Nothing is free in this world, if we want to safeguard our land, our people and our interest and also to play our role in International arena then we have to take many steps like this.

It will be a deterrence and a punishment for enemy in the time of war.

In the era of sophisticated air defense, SAMs, BMDs and AWACS we should have qualitative as well quantitative grip over enemy.

Moreover these expenses are spread over 10-15 years and our economy can very well afford it.

I think situation will be like India having:

by 2020
FGFA = 20-30 aprox.
Su-30 MKI = 280
MMRCA = 200 aprox.
Tejas (LCA) = 100 aprox.
UCAV = 100 aprox.
Total = 700-710 aprox. cutting edge new fighters + 290 upgraded (50 Mig 29S + 40 Mirage 2000-5+100 Mig21 Bison + 100 Jaguar)
= 990-1000 combat aircrafts


by 2025-27
FGFA = 150 aprox.
Su-30 MKI = 280
MMRCA = 200 aprox.
Tejas (LCA) = 200 aprox.
NGFA (MCA) = 50 aprox.
UCAV = 200 aprox.
Total = 1080 aprox. cutting edge new fighters

 

[sancho]

g:

by 2020
FGFA = 20-30 aprox.
Su-30 MKI = 280
MMRCA = 200 aprox.
Tejas (LCA) = 100 aprox.
UCAV = 100 aprox.
Total = 700-710 aprox. cutting edge new fighters + 290 upgraded (50 Mig 29S + 40 Mirage 2000-5+100 Mig21 Bison + 100 Jaguar)
= 990-1000 combat aircrafts

I have some doubts about these numbers mate!
We don't even really start to develop an UCAV and still have problems with UAVs, so I doubt 100 of them in 10 years (developing and testing alone will take time). In comparison, the Dassault Neuron is a European UCAV tech demonstrator, which is already in development and Dassault has 2 smaller prototypes already flying. But the final demonstrator is said to be ready around 2020!
If experienced countries needs that much time, we need longer for sure!
Also MMRCA, HAL started licence production of MKI in 2002 I think and it will end in 2015. MMRCA production in India will start only by 2014/15, so how should they produce 200 of them in 5 years (especially if one of the high tech western fighters wins), if they needed 13 years for 140 MKIs? Not to forget that they are producing LCA in the same time!

 

[Veer]

To boost the speed of production, R&D and infrastructure like these will help in completing projects like NGFA/MCA.

One-lakh jobs in Chennai Aero Park

Chennai: Around 4,000 acres of developed infrastructure (final phase) will be required to develop the Chennai Aero Park, by the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) and under consideration of the Tamil Nadu Government. The park in Chennai, Bangalore and Hyderabad will collectively be the largest integrated aerospace facility in the world, according to a concept paper prepared by CII.

The Park would attract global players and engage in the design, manufacture and maintenance of all types of aircrafts for both the civil and military programmes, including training and education.

The Chennai Aero Park can create direct and indirect employment to the tune of one lakh for highly-skilled resources in the area of aerospace and avionics. An aerospace supply chain with technology development, process development/enhancement, workforce development and infrastructure should be part of an ecosystem, says the proposal presented at Connect2008, the two-day annual ICT (information, communication and technology) event of Tamil Nadu organised by CII in association with the State Government.

The proposed model of the Chennai Aero Park will consist of manufacturing centre, aerospace and avionics service facilities, design studio interiors, university of aerosporatories, aerospace and avionics, research and development and test laboratories, residential and other supporting facilities and an engineering centre.

The park will have a synergy of the best aerospace and avionics technologies and expertise. It will have facilities training/simulator complex, aviation and aerospace management school, aircrew training school, helipad and 3-km landing strip, manufacturing complex, software and IT complex, pilots-aid complex and residential and other supporting facilities, the paper says.

According to the proposal, the design and engineering city will have 150-200 tier I and II engineering firms and provide niche solutions to the market. Residential complex will have around 10,000 engineers. A satellite MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) facility will be on a 250-acre facility near the greenfield airport with runway access, the paper said.

International industrial houses are keen to come to India to take advantage of available skill base, technology base and cost advantage for global and Indian opportunities.

The concept paper says that 1.65 lakh aerospace workers (of a total of 625,000) will retire in next two years in US alone. The US alone needs 10,000 aviation technicians each year while only 4,000 students enrol. The aviation workforce in the US and Europe is getting old and aviation is no longer attractive for young in these countries, the paper says.


John Douglass, former president and CEO of Aerospace Industries Association of America in his keynote address at Connect2008 welcomed the initiative of the Tamil Nadu Government. “I saw the proposal, which is very good. It is good news for Chennai and for trading partners like the US because it is based on concrete facts about the need for these kinds of centres for the future of global aerospace economy.”

 

[Veer]

TN eyes Perambalur for locating aeropark on 4,000 acres

CHENNAI: The Tamil Nadu government has given the much-awaited formal nod to promote a mega aerospace project in the state. Soon, a high-level delegation is expected to visit the US to woo investors in the sector.

Official agencies are working overtime to prepare the final blueprint and zero in on the location for the aerospace park, the next big ticket investment sector identified by the State Government after auto, IT and electronic hardware.

Alongside, the site evaluation exercise is on. It would take one or two months to identify and finalise the place of the proposed aeropark. Efforts were on for over a year to locate the aeropark within Chennai or nearby. Hosur was considered because of its proximity to Bangalore. But, it has only 250 acres available for the park.

After prolonged discussions, the stakeholders have finally agreed to consider Perambalur district, where land is available in plenty. Already the government is promoting a multi-product special economic zone in the district. By locating the aeropark in the backward area, an ideal ecosystem could be nurtured, the source added.

India has 60-plus aerospace components manufacturers in Bangalore and Chennai. Global companies like Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Rolls Royce, Dassault Aviation, GKN, MBDA France, Safran Honeywell International, Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation, L-3 Communications Holdings and Pratt & Whitney are some of the potential investors keenly evaluating the investment opportunities in the aerospace project.

Some key areas discussed during the advisory meetings held so far included identification of a land bank for the aeropark, steps to obtain the approval from the government to create the aeropark, reaching out to potential investors including anchor customer, conducting roadshows in Europe and US and formulating a model for setting up the PG/UG/technicians and maintenance/flight school training programmes.
TN eyes Perambalur for locating aeropark on 4,000 acres- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

 

[gogbot]

Nothing is free in this world, if we want to safeguard our land, our people and our interest and also to play our role in International arena then we have to take many steps like this.

It will be a deterrence and a punishment for enemy in the time of war.

In the era of sophisticated air defense, SAMs, BMDs and AWACS we should have qualitative as well quantitative grip over enemy.

Moreover these expenses are spread over 10-15 years and our economy can very well afford it.

I think situation will be like India having:

by 2020
FGFA = 20-30 aprox.
Su-30 MKI = 280
MMRCA = 200 aprox.
Tejas (LCA) = 100 aprox.
UCAV = 100 aprox.
Total = 700-710 aprox. cutting edge new fighters + 290 upgraded (50 Mig 29S + 40 Mirage 2000-5+100 Mig21 Bison + 100 Jaguar)
= 990-1000 combat aircrafts


by 2025-27
FGFA = 150 aprox.
Su-30 MKI = 280
MMRCA = 200 aprox.
Tejas (LCA) = 200 aprox.
NGFA (MCA) = 50 aprox.
UCAV = 200 aprox.
Total = 1080 aprox. cutting edge new fighters

You are increasingly underestimating the number of combat drones we will use.

The Americans now have more Drone operators then Pilots.

A more realistic estimable for the Unmanned systems is about the same as the entire manned force.

200 by UCAV by 2025.

Try 1000. And i am not counting the surveillance units. If you added those the figure would be well over 2000.

We have a little over 300 uav's today.

And more and more are just being ordered.

The cheapest and safest way to engage in strike missions is using UCAV's . everyone knows that. And that's exactly why the Any sane air force will be spending a significant percentage of its defense budget
on unmanned units to replace the strike aircraft.

 

[Veer]

I have some doubts about these numbers mate!
We don't even really start to develop an UCAV and still have problems with UAVs, so I doubt 100 of them in 10 years (developing and testing alone will take time). In comparison, the Dassault Neuron is a European UCAV tech demonstrator, which is already in development and Dassault has 2 smaller prototypes already flying. But the final demonstrator is said to be ready around 2020!
If experienced countries needs that much time, we need longer for sure!
Also MMRCA, HAL started licence production of MKI in 2002 I think and it will end in 2015. MMRCA production in India will start only by 2014/15, so how should they produce 200 of them in 5 years (especially if one of the high tech western fighters wins), if they needed 13 years for 140 MKIs? Not to forget that they are producing LCA in the same time!

I have not said that all of these UCAVs will produced by India Lakshya PTA, IAI Harpy or something like this, we so you got your answer.

I have already said aprox., some of the aircrafts of MMRCA will be brought off the shelves and we can build around130-200 depending upon the scale of production.

IAF is stressing on involvement of private sector on a much larger scale. Medium, Small and Large Scale industries from private sector will lesser the burden and make the work smoother. Obviously our infrastucture, manpower and expertise will be better than what it was a decade ago.

Also the Su30 MKI was brought in installments (50+140+40+50)

If HAL/DRDO or any manufacturer knows what he have to make, in what quantities, the supply lines should be there, investment and infrastructure. Then only he can plan and make all the arrangements to meet the deadlines.

I know HAL/DRDO works like sarkari babu.

But think like a manufacturer who have to run from pillar to post for everything, then you don't know the final order because they comes in small bathes/numbers so you can't bargain hard with suppliers and every time there is some more addition feature in order obviously then the product will be costly and the supply will be delayed.

Also some times there is section on the country or the foreign supplier does not follow the agreement or delays the supplies in that case HAL/DRDO have to reinvent the wheel or make the arrangement locally like Steel Authority of India makes special sheets for them. Its all pathetic. Govt. does not care or do its homework etc.

The government will be more vigil, the funds and infrastructure will be there also HAL/DRDO have learned a lot from LCA/Sukhoi etc.

 

[faithfulguy]

I have some doubts about these numbers mate!
We don't even really start to develop an UCAV and still have problems with UAVs, so I doubt 100 of them in 10 years (developing and testing alone will take time). In comparison, the Dassault Neuron is a European UCAV tech demonstrator, which is already in development and Dassault has 2 smaller prototypes already flying. But the final demonstrator is said to be ready around 2020!
If experienced countries needs that much time, we need longer for sure!
Also MMRCA, HAL started licence production of MKI in 2002 I think and it will end in 2015. MMRCA production in India will start only by 2014/15, so how should they produce 200 of them in 5 years (especially if one of the high tech western fighters wins), if they needed 13 years for 140 MKIs? Not to forget that they are producing LCA in the same time!

I agree with you on your more sensible and realistic analysis. Your number will come out more correct than the other reponses for your post.

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

I agree with you on your more sensible and realistic analysis. Your number will come out more correct than the other reponses for your post.

@sancho put forth his doubts for discussion....
which were pretty well cleared by the subsequent posts...

plz read those also....... dont do selective reading for spreding ur propaganda......

 

[Storm Force]

Some of you have way over estimated your nos.

To induct and equip 800-900 fighters you need far more pilots,, more air bases, more weapons and more fuel. THIS MEANS FAR MORE $$$$$

I realise IAF wud like 60 sqds but this won,t happen.

Even WHEN INDIA GDP matches UK & FRANCE which it will by 2020-2025 TIME FRAME realistically i cant see much more than 650 fighters or 35-37 combat sdqs.

SU30MKI will remain at only 230 i think esp. IF INDIA orders MMRCA in 2010 october/nov time i think.

LCA will only see 8 fghters a year til 2015 and barely 12 theres after. = no mre than 120 approx by 2022

Finally MMRCA will take 7 years to build 108 by 2021 starting 2013

PAK FA FGFA will not enter IAF service 2010 at least (india will too busy with lca/mmrca for 10 years)

230 su30mki + 126 mmrca + 120+ tejas tops by 2020

2020 -2025 = 50+ PAK FA FGFA

still a very potent air power potentialy

 

[Veer]

Some of you have way over estimated your nos.

To induct and equip 800-900 fighters you need far more pilots,, more air bases, more weapons and more fuel. THIS MEANS FAR MORE $$$$$

I realise IAF wud like 60 sqds but this won,t happen.

Even WHEN INDIA GDP matches UK & FRANCE which it will by 2020-2025 TIME FRAME realistically i cant see much more than 650 fighters or 35-37 combat sdqs.

SU30MKI will remain at only 230 i think esp. IF INDIA orders MMRCA in 2010 october/nov time i think.

LCA will only see 8 fghters a year til 2015 and barely 12 theres after. = no mre than 120 approx by 2022

Finally MMRCA will take 7 years to build 108 by 2021 starting 2013

PAK FA FGFA will not enter IAF service 2010 at least (india will too busy with lca/mmrca for 10 years)

230 su30mki + 126 mmrca + 120+ tejas tops by 2020

2020 -2025 = 50+ PAK FA FGFA

still a very potent air power potentialy

1.) India currently have more than 850 combat aircraft so when you says that even when India will reach UK/France level it will not have more than 650 aircraft, falls flat.

2.) The majority of these 850 combat aircraft are purchased at the time when India's economy was going among its worst times, so you dont't worry about money. If India can afford it in our worst times when we were largely agricultural economy even can't produce all of our food requirements domestically.We can surely do it at when we are largely a service sector economy like developed nations and our manufacturing is strong and soon join the international league of industrialized nations.

3.) As per pilots, air bases and infrastructural India is putting the things in order, preparing and investing in these areas.

4.) You should also remember at these times we will be facing out hundreds of our old combat aircraft. That we are replacing existing and adding some more capabilities.

Even a country like Pakistan whose economy is barely walking on foreign aids is acquiring 200-250 aircraft then how can you doubts Indian capabilities which is ten times more than Pakistan in all seances.

 

[Storm Force]

Its taken india 7 years to induct 110 su30mki

It will take 4 years to induct 40 tejas frm 2011-2015

You simply cannot absorb the induction of 3 new combat types and 450+ fighters in 10-15 years.. not realistic

 

[hardcore]

guys i seriously doubt the hal guys
my friend said the officials come to work late 12 or 1
then go home and return late 4 or 5
to see what work has been done
and get lacs of salaries for this

 

[Veer]

Developing Countries Next Generation Fighter Aircraft

Recently when Requirements of MCA now re-named to NGFA (Next Generation Fighter Aircraft) by Indian Air force was made public in section of media , IAF clear dedicates what it wants for NGFA and seems to leave very little room for developers ADE and other DRDO labs . IAF seems will not compromise on the aircrafts capabilities from the start.

For years NGFA was rumored to be a strike aircraft with secondary role of Air defence capabilities. Now IAF wants a fully multirole Aircraft with almost all the technology which only a 5TH Generation Aircraft like Pak-Fa which India is partnered with Russia for its development will have ,India’s contribution to Pak-Fa is limited to sub-system of it avionics and its core software very similar work which was done with Sukhoi-Su30 MKI. Other then Avionics which can be further developed from Tejas MK-II platform they are tones of other things which NGFA will need to make it truly a 5TH Generation Aircraft .

IAF seems to be clear that it wants most of the Avionics and Engine for NGFA to be indigenous, Specially the AESA Radar; it seems IAF will not settle for AESA which has been developed by LRDE for Tejas Mk-II, it want to be more sophisticated then the Current AESA technology what LDRE is working on and better Avionics and Self-defence systems for the aircraft which will take lot of time unless similar Pak-Fa Avionics package is chosen.

The Kaveri-Snecma Engine based on core of M-88 has been seen has the possible engine which will power NGFA, Details of this engine is still not clear and what level of Technology French will bring is also crucial, GTRE failed to develop current Kaveri engine in time to power Tejas Combat aircraft .The new engine should be based on consultation with IAF to avoid future disappointments and should be ready in time to power NGFA which will have a tech demonstrator, three prototype vehicles and two production jets . No intermediate Engine has been sought, Kaveri-II have to be ready in time for NGFA to make its first flight.

Stealthy Airframe Requirements seems to have thrown out any DRDO’s plans of having Aircraft with low Stealth characters, it wants Stealthy Airframe from the start and Current level of technology in India does not have such high end materials, composites and radar observing airframe materials and paints. Wind-tunnel model which was displayed at Aero India 2009 of MCA will need designs changes to meet IAF’s demand of full Stealthy Airframe, while wind tunnel model seemed like Aircraft with Stealth features but not fully stealth aircraft.

Time frame set by ADA is again over ambitious. ADA plans to have the first test flight of the NGFA by 7-8 years, once go head is given which may come by end of 2010, this is simply not possible since most of the technology required for it is still not in pipeline, since various Labs will be working on it any delays by any Lab will effect the schedule flight plan and again it will look similar way which LCA was made to go.

Consultancy and joint development of various systems should be considered to meet the deadline for NGFA’s first flight; Aircraft should be developed with possible export market in mind. To give air forces around the world a cheap and high technology 5TH Generation fighter which can compete with American and Chinese aircrafts in future.

 

[Creder]

Good luck m8s wish it hadnt came down to an arms race between us though, atleast not when there are people without clothing on their body and kids without food on both side of the borders

 

[Geromix]

Some of you have way over estimated your nos.

To induct and equip 800-900 fighters you need far more pilots,, more air bases, more weapons and more fuel. THIS MEANS FAR MORE $$$$$

I realise IAF wud like 60 sqds but this won,t happen.

Even WHEN INDIA GDP matches UK & FRANCE which it will by 2020-2025 TIME FRAME realistically i cant see much more than 650 fighters or 35-37 combat sdqs.

SU30MKI will remain at only 230 i think esp. IF INDIA orders MMRCA in 2010 october/nov time i think.

LCA will only see 8 fghters a year til 2015 and barely 12 theres after. = no mre than 120 approx by 2022

Finally MMRCA will take 7 years to build 108 by 2021 starting 2013

PAK FA FGFA will not enter IAF service 2010 at least (india will too busy with lca/mmrca for 10 years)

230 su30mki + 126 mmrca + 120+ tejas tops by 2020

2020 -2025 = 50+ PAK FA FGFA

still a very potent air power potentialy

^^One error regarding economic projection/prediction of India's GDP.
India's GDP will be equivalent to that of UK/France before the years(2020-25) you have provided.
You can thank the recession for that.
The point that you made would have been right if the recession hadn't happened. Your numbers are old.
India's GDP should be equal to that UK in the latter half of this decade.