What's new

Muslim-beating in the 'righteous' US

Fighter488

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
1,050
Reaction score
0
Muslim-beating in the 'righteous' US

By Stephan Salisbury

Alioune Niass, the Sengalese Muslim vendor who first spotted the now infamous smoking SUV in Times Square and alerted police, is no hero.

If it were not for the Times of London, we would not even know of his pivotal role in the story. No mainstream American newspaper bothered to mention or profile Niass, who peddles framed photographs of celebs and the Manhattan skyline. None of the big television stations interviewed him.

As far as the readers of the New York Times are concerned - not to mention the New York Post and the Daily News - Niass doesn't exist. Nor does he exist for President Barack Obama, who telephoned Lance Orton and Duane Jackson, two fellow vendors, to thank them for their alertness in reporting the SUV. The New York Mets even feted Jackson and Orton as heroes at a game with the San Francisco Giants.

And Niass? Well, no presidential phone calls, no encomiums, no articles (though his name did finally surface briefly on a New York Times blog several days after the incident), no free Mets tickets. Yet as the London Times reported, it was Niass who first saw the clouds of smoke seeping from the SUV on that May 1 Saturday night.

He hadn't seen the car drive up because he was attending to customers - and, for a vendor in Times Square, Saturday nights are not to be taken lightly. Niass was alarmed, however, when he saw that smoke. "I thought I should call 911," he told the Times, "but my English is not very good and I had no credit left on my phone, so I walked over to Lance, who has the T-shirt stall next to mine, and told him. He said we shouldn't call 911. Immediately he alerted a police officer nearby." Then the cop called 911.

So Lance got the press, and he and Jackson, who also reported the SUV, have been celebrated as "heroes". As the Times interview with Niass has made the Internet rounds, there have been calls for the recognition of his "heroism", too.

These three men all acted admirably. The two other vendors did what any citizen ought to do on spotting a smoldering car illegally parked on a busy street. But heroes? In the case of Niass, characterizing him as a hero may in a sense diminish the significance of his act.

A vendor in New York since 9/11, he saw something amiss and reported it, leading him into contact with the police. That a Muslim immigrant would not think twice about this simple civic act speaks volumes about the power of American society and the actual day-to-day lives and conduct of Muslims in this nation, particularly immigrant Muslims.

This was a reasonably routine act for Orton and Jackson, but for Niass it required special courage, and the fact that he acted anyway only underscores what should be an obvious fact about Muslims in post-9/11 America: they represent a socially responsible and engaged community like any other.

Assault on American Muslims

Why do I say that his act required courage?

Like many Muslim immigrants in New York City and around the country, Niass senses that he is viewed with suspicion by fellow citizens - and particularly by law-enforcement authorities - simply because of his religion. In an interview with Democracy Now, an essential independent radio and television news program, Niass said that, in terrorism cases, law enforcement authorities view every Muslim as a potential threat. Ordinary citizens become objects of suspicion for their very ordinariness. "If one person is bad, they are going to say everybody for this religion. That is, I think, wrong."

As far as Niass is concerned, terrorists are, at best, apostates, irreligious deviants. "That not religion," he told his interviewer, "because Islam religion is not terrorist. Because if I know this guy is Muslim, if I know that, I'm going to catch him before he run away."

The New York Police Department Intelligence Division, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Immigration and Customs Enforcement all routinely run armies of informers through the city's Middle Eastern and South Asian communities. In the immediate wake of 9/11, sections of New York experienced sweeps by local and federal agents. The same in Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Houston and communities on the West Coast - everywhere, in fact, that Muslims cluster together.

I've been reporting on this for years (and have made it the subject of my book Mohamed's Ghosts: An American Story of Love and Fear in the Homeland). Despite the demurrals of law-enforcement officials, these sweeps and ongoing, ever-widening investigations have focused exclusively on Muslim enclaves. I have seen the destructive impact on family and community such covert police activity can have: broken homes, deported parents, bereft children, suicides, killings, neighbors filled with mutual suspicions, daily shunning as a fact of life. "Since when is being Muslim a crime?" one woman whose husband had been swept up off a street in Philadelphia asked me.

Muslim residents have been detained, jailed and deported by the thousands since 9/11. We all know this and law-enforcement and federal officials have repeatedly argued that these measures are necessary in the new era ushered in by al-Qaeda. A prosecutor once candidly told me that it made no sense to spend time investigating or watching non-Muslims. Go to the source, he said.

Radicalization is a problem of limited proportions

There are many problems with this facile view, and two recent studies - one from a think-tank funded in large part by the federal government, the other from the Sanford School of Public Policy at Duke University and the University of North Carolina's departments of religion and sociology (using a US Department of Justice grant) - highlight some of the most glaring contradictions.

The Rand Corporation studied the incidence of terrorist acts since September 11, 2001, and found that the problem, while serious, was wildly overblown. There have been, Rand researchers determined, all of 46 incidents of Americans or long-time US residents being radicalized and attempting to commit acts of terror (most failing woefully) since 9/11. Those incidents involved a total of 125 people.

Think about that number for a moment: it averages out to about six cases of purported radicalization and terrorism a year. Faisal Shahzad's utterly inept effort in Times Square would make incident 47. In the 1970s, the report points out, the country endured, on average, around 70 terrorist incidents a year. From January 1969 to April 1970 alone, the US somehow managed to survive 4,330 bombings, 43 deaths and US$22 million in property damage.

The Rand report, "Would-Be Warriors: Incidents of Jihadist Terrorist Radicalization in the United States since September 11, 2001," argues that ham-handed surveillance and aggressive police investigations can be, and often are, counter-productive, sowing a deep-seated fear of law-enforcement and immigration authorities throughout Muslim communities - whose assistance is vital in coping with the threat of Islamic terrorism, tiny as it is here.

Family members, friends and neighbors are far more likely to know when someone is headed down a dangerously radical path than the police, no matter how many informers may be in a neighborhood. "On occasion, relatives and friends have intervened," the Rand researchers write. "But will they trust the authorities enough to notify them when persuasion does not work?" And will the authorities actually use the information provided by family members when they receive it? Don't forget the perfunctory manner in which Central Intelligence Agency officials treated the father of the underwear bomber when he tried to report his son as an imminent threat.

The second study, conducted by a research team from Duke University and the University of North Carolina, found similarly small numbers of domestic terror plots and incidents since 9/11. The report identifies 139 Muslim Americans who have been prosecuted for planning or executing acts of terrorist violence since September 11, 2001, an average of 17 a year. (Again, most of these attempted acts of terror, as in the Shahzad case, were ineptly planned, if planned at all.) Like the Rand report, the Duke-UNC study highlights the meager numbers: "This level of 17 individuals a year is small compared to other violent crime in America but not insignificant. Homegrown terrorism is a serious but limited problem."

The Duke-UNC researchers conducted 120 in-depth interviews with Muslims in four American cities to gain insight into the problem of homegrown Islamic terrorism and the response of Muslim Americans to it. Why so few cases? Why so little radicalization? Not surprisingly, what the researchers found was widespread hostility to extremist ideologies and strong Muslim community efforts to quash them - efforts partially driven by a desire for self-protection, but more significantly by moral, ethical and theological hostility to violent fundamentalist ideologies.

Both of these reports underscore the importance of what the researchers call "self-policing" within Muslim communities. They consider it a critical and underutilized factor in combating terrorism in the US. Far from being secretive breeding grounds for radicalism, the Duke-UNC report argues, mosques and other Muslim community institutions build ties to the nation and larger world while working to root out extremist political fundamentalism. It was not for nothing that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed instructed his 9/11 hijackers to steer clear of Muslim Americans, their mosques and their institutions.

The UNC-Duke report urges federal and local officials to work aggressively to integrate Muslim communities even more fully into the American political process. Authorities, it suggests, should be considering ways of supporting and strengthening those communities by actively promoting repeated Muslim denunciations of violence. (Such condemnations have been continuous since 9/11 but are rarely reported in the press.) Public officials should also work to insure that social service agencies are active in Muslim neighborhoods, should aggressively pursue claimed infractions of civil rights laws, and should focus on establishing working relationships with Muslim groups when it comes to terrorism and law enforcement issues.

The Times Square incident - and, yes, the small but vital role played by Alioune Niass - illustrate the importance of these commonsensical recommendations. Yet the media have ignored Niass, and law-enforcement agencies have once again mounted a highly public, fear-inducing investigation justified in the media largely by anonymous leaks.

This recreates the creepy feeling of what happened in the immediate aftermath of 9/11: the appearance of a massive, chaotic, paranoid probe backed by media speculation disguised as reporting. A warehouse raided in South Jersey. Why? No answers. A man led away in handcuffs from a Boston-area home. Who is he? What is his role? Was he a money man? Maybe. But maybe not. Suspicious packages. Oddly parked trucks. Tips. Streets closed. Bomb squads cautiously approaching ordinary boxes or vehicles. No answers - even after the all-clear rings out and the yellow caution tape comes down.

More importantly, the controlled flow of anonymous leaks to the mainstream press has laid the groundwork for the Obama administration to threaten Pakistan harshly - even as Iraq and Afghanistan sink further into deadly and destructive fighting - and to ponder extreme revisions of criminal procedures involving the rights of suspects. The administration's radical suggestion to suspend Miranda rights and delay court hearings for terrorism suspects amounts to a threat to every American citizen's right to an attorney and a defense against state power. Is this the message the country wants to send "the evil-doers", as president George W Bush used to call them?

Or have we already taken the message of those evil-doers to heart? Faisal Shahzad, an American citizen taken into custody on American soil, disappeared into the black hole of interrogation for more than two weeks - despite Obama's assertion to a CIA audience over a year ago that "what makes the United States special ... is precisely the fact that we are willing to uphold our values and our ideals even when it's hard, not just when it's easy, even when we are afraid and under threat, not just when it's expedient to do so."

When the going gets tough, as Attorney General Holder made clear on Meet the Press on May 9, the tough change the rules. "We're now dealing with international terrorists," he said, "and I think that we have to think about perhaps modifying the rules that interrogators have and somehow coming up with something that is flexible and is more consistent with the threat that we now face." None of this is good news for Muslims in America - or for the rest of us.

Stephan Salisbury is cultural writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer. His most recent book is Mohamed's Ghosts: An American Story of Love and Fear in the Homeland.

(If you are interested in reading the Duke University-University of North Carolina study, it is available by clicking here, as is the Rand report by clicking here. (Note that both are PDF files.) Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's aversion to contact with US Muslims is mentioned in evidence presented at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui and can be found in PDF format on page 36 of defense exhibit 941 here. For another view of just how overblown the Islamic terrorist threat in the U.S. is, check out Tom Engelhardt's "Fear Inc".]

(Copyright 2010 Stephan Salisbury.)

(Used by permission Tomdispatch)


Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs
 
Not just Muslims but all South Asians are viewed suspiciously in the US after an incident like this. Hopefully for once we can unite and say it is not a Muslim or South Asian thing. It is just plain terrorism and to paint us as a religion or a people with the same brush is just plain discrimination which itself in a strict sense of speaking is terrorism by the establishment against our people
 
Not just Muslims but all South Asians are viewed suspiciously in the US after an incident like this. Hopefully for once we can unite and say it is not a Muslim or South Asian thing. It is just plain terrorism and to paint us as a religion or a people with the same brush is just plain discrimination which itself in a strict sense of speaking is terrorism by the establishment against our people

But this is not the case in western media, now a days. Pre-concieved notions take precedence over logic and sanity.

It look quite sad US people slowly but surely loosing the great traits of logic, reasoning and sanity to organised government sponsored terror and sucspicion driven atmosphere in the country.


Fighter
 
But this is not the case in western media, now a days. Pre-concieved notions take precedence over logic and sanity.

It look quite sad US people slowly but surely loosing the great traits of logic, reasoning and sanity to organised government sponsored terror and sucspicion driven atmosphere in the country.


Fighter
Sir, I don't intend to hurt you with what I am going to say, but what precisely makes you think that we Westerners are bloodthirsty animals against some specific community with or without reasons? You did mention about United States and a few other countries but finally summed it up as Western world. Now I am not here to be an apologist while claiming that my country doesn't do something like this or anything of the sort.

You have put so much effort in unearthing this article to bash West about how your community's people are being suspected. Let me show you some happenings all around the world from different countries of different cultures, including eastern countries. This might offend you but is a bitter truth:

1) Netherlands





2) Germany

Germany: Threat of Islamic terrorism 'consistently high', says report - Adnkronos Security


3) Great Britain

Four Muslim extremists arrested over plot to bomb synagogue and shoot down planes | Mail Online


4) France

France arrests 12 suspected Islamic extremists | www.english.rfi.fr


5) Switzerland

http://www.washingtontimes.com/International/2008/10/21/switzerland_a_possible_target_of_islamist_terrorism/1759/


6) India

ATS arrests SIMI activist in three bomb blast cases in Mumbai


7) United States of America

Times Square suspect charged in terror plot - Security- msnbc.com

8) Russia

BBC News - Moscow Metro hit by deadly suicide bombings

9) Spain

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | 2004 | Madrid train attacks

10) Thailand




11) Indonesia

CBC News Indepth: Bali Bombing


There are hundreds more going back older than Lockerbie incident. However, post-9/11 it has gone up to dangerous levels. From United States to Russia and from Spain to Indonesia, this form of terrorism has been wreaking havoc all over the world. Now tell me, if all these bombers and attackers have been with a Muslim name in this case, how do you expect the Westerners to react after sometime? West has rarely come into contact with any such thing. While the military and the security officials have the technology and know-how in identifying a terrorist from an innocent person; the civilians walking on the street don't. How do you expect these people to react?

The common man, who has a wife and a child to look after, who is the bread-earner of the family (women work too but its always man's responsibility isn't it?).. how would you expect him to react if a friend of his was recently blown to bits and he had just escaped? Would this common man not think after hearing the same type of news repeatedly that its the community? What's more, the migrant community is doing absolutely nothing to dispel these fears. Instead, more and more youth from these communities are getting indoctrinated into radicalism, train in these horrific methods of the militants and return back just like this Mr. Shehzad did.

What reason was there for him to attempt such a terrifying act? He had a good wife, beautiful children, was a well qualified Asian man from the Muslim community who had recently acquired American citizenship. Was it because of Palestine-Israel issue? War on Terror? Iraq war? What could this man have achieved in killing a few men, women and kids? Would it have stopped the NATO troops from continuing the hunt for insurgents? Would it have made ISAF surrender to Taliban?

Instead of understanding this fear, many members here encourage and praise Taliban's barbarity and then call the West "racists". How is the average Westerner to deal with this? There are military personnel from different countries here as members, I too have served Schweizer Armee and working in UN, I travel a lot to know the people of my destination closely. However, what about those majority who don't? Please think from the perspective of a common Western man with a family and see what is the reason behind this suspicion. If modern, educated people like this Mr. Shehzad are going to do such things what level of trust do you expect to remain in the hearts of Western common citizens who welcomed these immigrants without a doubt only to get blown up? Please tell me that. :)


This is a frank discussion with no intention to insult anyone of any faith. So please keep it clean.
 
Last edited:
The media has a huge hand in it.

I remember watching Iron Man and the militants were speaking Urdu.

WTF?

First of all, you are in an Arab country and you're speaking URDU? WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT? Only 16% of Pakistan can speak Urdu. And somehow the language became the communication for miitants in IRAQ? ROFL.

They might as well made them speak Punjabi straight up since 80% of the country speaks that.
 
The media has a huge hand in it.

I remember watching Iron Man and the militants were speaking Urdu.

WTF?

First of all, you are in an Arab country and you're speaking URDU? WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT? Only 16% of Pakistan can speak Urdu. And somehow the language became the communication for miitants in IRAQ? ROFL.

They might as well made them speak Punjabi straight up since 80% of the country speaks that.

Freekin, lol. :lol:

You are way off, it was in Afghanistan that Iron Man got kidnapped, it is not an arabic country and many there can indeed speak Urdu. Some of them come here and learn the language because of better assimilation into the country.

You should go and concentrate on Ayesha and her right to wear a bikini. ;)

Also a lot more than 16% speak Urdu in Pakistan. Stop puffing the magic dragon.
 
Sir, I don't intend to hurt you with what I am going to say, but what precisely makes you think that we Westerners are bloodthirsty animals against some specific community with or without reasons? You did mention about United States and a few other countries but finally summed it up as Western world. Now I am not here to be an apologist while claiming that my country doesn't do something like this or anything of the sort.

You have put so much effort in unearthing this article to bash West about how your community's people are being suspected. Let me show you some happenings all around the world from different countries of different cultures, including eastern countries. This might offend you but is a bitter truth:

1) Netherlands





2) Germany

Germany: Threat of Islamic terrorism 'consistently high', says report - Adnkronos Security


3) Great Britain

Four Muslim extremists arrested over plot to bomb synagogue and shoot down planes | Mail Online


4) France

France arrests 12 suspected Islamic extremists | www.english.rfi.fr


5) Switzerland

http://www.washingtontimes.com/International/2008/10/21/switzerland_a_possible_target_of_islamist_terrorism/1759/


6) India

ATS arrests SIMI activist in three bomb blast cases in Mumbai


7) United States of America

Times Square suspect charged in terror plot - Security- msnbc.com

8) Russia

BBC News - Moscow Metro hit by deadly suicide bombings

9) Spain

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | 2004 | Madrid train attacks

10) Thailand




11) Indonesia

CBC News Indepth: Bali Bombing


There are hundreds more going back older than Lockerbie incident. However, post-9/11 it has gone up to dangerous levels. From United States to Russia and from Spain to Indonesia, this form of terrorism has been wreaking havoc all over the world. Now tell me, if all these bombers and attackers have been with a Muslim name in this case, how do you expect the Westerners to react after sometime? West has rarely come into contact with any such thing. While the military and the security officials have the technology and know-how in identifying a terrorist from an innocent person; the civilians walking on the street don't. How do you expect these people to react?

The common man, who has a wife and a child to look after, who is the bread-earner of the family (women work too but its always man's responsibility isn't it?).. how would you expect him to react if a friend of his was recently blown to bits and he had just escaped? Would this common man not think after hearing the same type of news repeatedly that its the community? What's more, the migrant community is doing absolutely nothing to dispel these fears. Instead, more and more youth from these communities are getting indoctrinated into radicalism, train in these horrific methods of the militants and return back just like this Mr. Shehzad did.

What reason was there for him to attempt such a terrifying act? He had a good wife, beautiful children, was a well qualified Asian man from the Muslim community who had recently acquired American citizenship. Was it because of Palestine-Israel issue? War on Terror? Iraq war? What could this man have achieved in killing a few men, women and kids? Would it have stopped the NATO troops from continuing the hunt for insurgents? Would it have made ISAF surrender to Taliban?

Instead of understanding this fear, many members here encourage and praise Taliban's barbarity and then call the West "racists". How is the average Westerner to deal with this? There are military personnel from different countries here as members, I too have served Schweizer Armee and working in UN, I travel a lot to know the people of my destination closely. However, what about those majority who don't? Please think from the perspective of a common Western man with a family and see what is the reason behind this suspicion. If modern, educated people like this Mr. Shehzad are going to do such things what level of trust do you expect to remain in the hearts of Western common citizens who welcomed these immigrants without a doubt only to get blown up? Please tell me that. :)


This is a frank discussion with no intention to insult anyone of any faith. So please keep it clean.


No matter what, no civilized state can allow its citizens to be arrested and detained or harassed for the actions of others. Bin Laden is responsible for Laden's action, you cannot hold even his brother responsible for his actions without any evidence. If any state does so, it is flouting basic human rights and you cannot blame others for seeing it as a blood-thirsty entity. In the west the entire Muslim community is a terror suspect, but when the Christian fundamentalists blew up the Oklahoma federal building the entire Christian community did not become a terror suspect. isn't that amazing ? And there are millions of examples like that. After the invasion of Iraq over a completely false and deceitful claim the west cannot blame the Muslims for viewing the west as a Great Satan. You can try but you cannot change the facts with your flimsy logic.
 

O bhai wikipedia pay bi yehi likha hai k Urdu is not mother toungue of majority but still majority in Pakistan understand urdu and can read and write urdu..... BTW I have been to some parts of pakistan and I have met with people who have been to many parts of Pakistan and they never said that people there don't understand Urdu.... Com on man ground realities are always different from these surveys..
 
T-Rex said:
isn't that amazing ?
No, it's not amazing. It may not be right, but it isn't that difficult to understand. America is an overwhelmingly Christian country. Our people do not travel as much as Europeans and most are very unfamiliar with the Muslim world. Muslims make up a very small minority of Americans, (although it is rapidly growing.), and Americans know almost nothing of the Muslim religion, even ten years after 9-11.

The Federal building bombing in Oklahoma was not carried out by a religious group. It was only a few individuals who did that, not a big terrorist organisation, and they were a political group, not religious in any way.
 
Sir, I don't intend to hurt you with what I am going to say, but what precisely makes you think that we Westerners are bloodthirsty animals against some specific community with or without reasons? You did mention about United States and a few other countries but finally summed it up as Western world. Now I am not here to be an apologist while claiming that my country doesn't do something like this or anything of the sort.

Parshuram,
Dear
First there is no bloodthirsty animals in western world of common men and women. It never was the intention of either the author of the article or myself, the poster of this article here. And there is no such reference either.

How many eastern countries can you identify, where an ORGANISED effort is going on to label christianity or chiristians as terrorists? This despite the fact that more muslims are killed by christian government/armies/ librators in last two decades (Sorry to use the direct reference here) in the name of democracy and hypothetical WMDs. How many western countries can you identify where government and media is not trying, day in day out, to make people fearful of muslims and Islam?

Just give me these answers honestly. Probably you will find the reason of mistrust towards west in general and USA in particular in muslim world.

Fighter
 
No matter what, no civilized state can allow its citizens to be arrested and detained or harassed for the actions of others. Bin Laden is responsible for Laden's action, you cannot hold even his brother responsible for his actions without any evidence. If any state does so, it is flouting basic human rights and you cannot blame others for seeing it as a blood-thirsty entity. In the west the entire Muslim community is a terror suspect, but when the Christian fundamentalists blew up the Oklahoma federal building the entire Christian community did not become a terror suspect. isn't that amazing ? And there are millions of examples like that. After the invasion of Iraq over a completely false and deceitful claim the west cannot blame the Muslims for viewing the west as a Great Satan. You can try but you cannot change the facts with your flimsy logic.
Reading it off the paper and attempting tough talk. It seems you rushed in with your emotions than thinking over what I have written. Regarding Bin Laden's brother, how do you or I know that there is no evidence against him? Authorities and security agencies always don't disclose everything for the sake of state secrecy and therefore are likely to conceal such things. How can you say with so much conviction that the West is guilty? This is blind hatred of the West due to faith-induced extremist thinking.


The Christian extremists you call, is a 'known devil' to the West. The ideology, the direction in which a mind can think in it, the possibility of damage that has or can be caused is within the scope of understanding for the Western governments. This is different from the new problems by the radicalized fundamentalists who adhere to Taliban ideology. Let me give you and example. In this example, consider the nationality and religion common for the sakes of understanding of my point.

Your country Bangladesh has been familiar with local fundamentalists attacking places of high value and making insane demands. Your intelligence and authorities have fairly an idea on what lines these extremists can think, plan and what are their possible weaknesses if not confirmed. Being a state that is more Islamic, your special and law forces are familiar with the religious thinking of these local extremists and fairly know their capabilities.

Now put a bunch of extremists who migrate to your country based on thinking of another ideology or XYZ faith from some other part of the world. First time, your government apprehends these people and punishes them on individualistic accounts of violence against the country. Second time, Third time, fourth time, fifth time, the same thing from the same bunch of people also migrating to your affiliated countries and conducting similar methods of violence in those countries as well as your country.... What do you think will happen now? Please consider the factor that this community's methods are unknown to your government and people and these are new immigrants to your country. :)

Are you now going to tell me that your authorities would first convert to this faith from your present ones, take the time to understand it and then explain it to the people of your country, by the time many of the extremists from this XYZ community would have caused unspeakable damage? Are you trying to tell me that your government won't keep a tab on all the migrants of this XYZ ideology whether or not they have engaged in any extremism, just for precaution? If yes, then you have absolutely no idea of the scenario and are merely posting biased comments trying to evoke false sympathy against those kind of people who don't deserve it and those who thrive on fooling and cheating many people like you for misplaced sympathies.

Don't just sympathize because they are your fellow followers of the same faith. Consider the above case situation in your country and try to understand what the Western countries in Americas and Europe are struggling with.
 
Parshuram,
Dear
First there is no bloodthirsty animals in western world of common men and women. It never was the intention of either the author of the article or myself, the poster of this article here. And there is no such reference either.

How many eastern countries can you identify, where an ORGANISED effort is going on to label christianity or chiristians as terrorists? This despite the fact that more muslims are killed by christian government/armies/ librators in last two decades (Sorry to use the direct reference here) in the name of democracy and hypothetical WMDs. How many western countries can you identify where government and media is not trying, day in day out, to make people fearful of muslims and Islam?

Just give me these answers honestly. Probably you will find the reason of mistrust towards west in general and USA in particular in muslim world.

Fighter
Sir, I shall reply your questions with another question: how many Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/Jew militant organizations have been operating in muslim countries? How many buildings have these agencies blown up? How many common civilians have these terrorists shot dead? How many of your holy places have they attacked? Can you give me the name and a linked report of organized militants from these communities operating in aforementioned category of countries? How many agencies of these above-mentioned communities are having entire list of countries sympathetic and have been state-sponsoring them? I'd appreciate if you can also state me this.

I am talking here specifically of countries that adhere to your religion as the official state religion. Let us not bring East in the middle because East has a different set of faith(s) than what the thread-starting article seems to sympathize with.

This despite the fact that more muslims are killed by christian government/armies/ librators in last two decades (Sorry to use the direct reference here) in the name of democracy and hypothetical WMDs.

Are you criticizing the Afghan war? Seriously? After what Taliban has done to their own people and also abetted in militant activities in the West as well as your country, India? Collateral damage is a tragic and unavoidable part of any war which can only be minimized though repeated trials and not completely eliminated. You want to equate that to organized militancy based on some tents or order? War crimes are an inherent part of any war that is not state-sponsored and you know it. Iraq war is a waste and a needless waste of money and life, for which not just American citizens but also entire NATO as well as neutral countries such as mine heavily criticize the Pentagon.

You'd want to know that there are more protesters in the West who are actually sensibly protesting Iraq war than a bunch of fundamentalist-sympathizers burning down a dozen cars and shops in South Asia or middle east whichever region you wish to associate this scenario with.

I am a stern critic of United States' military excursions sometimes but when it comes to this article and your points raised, I'll have to disagree. We Swiss are neither NATO nor have in past belonged to Soviet Bloc and even today are not a part of any alliance. But I would like to emphasize that Western countries don't target any muslim or eastern country with the intention of harming its civilians. What is happening in Afghanistan (barring Iraq) is extremely unfortunate. I don't understand how you conveniently place the blame on Western "foreigners" instead of hating Taliban using fellow muslim Afghan civilians as human shields against the ISAF troops.

Afghanistan under the Taliban was becoming a dangerous pot of boiling water that would have caused injuries to the handful stable economies your part of the world has: the Persian/Arabian Gulf countries that have a wonderful record of peaceful and stable economies, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka who though not as prosperous are the only stable economies currently in the region with vibrant diaspora. As far as I am aware, even India has been a victim of Taliban in one hijacking case that I am not able to clearly recollect.

If you want to explicitly talk about Iraq, you have my agreement that it was needless as there were no traces of WMDs even though Saddam Hussein had used (Chemical weapons, biological weapons) them against Iran and killed over a million Iranians in the 8-year Iran-Iraq war. Right?

Yes If this is the case, then I should agree with you. :rolleyes:
 
Sir, I shall reply your questions with another question: how many Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/Jew militant organizations have been operating in muslim countries? How many buildings have these agencies blown up? How many common civilians have these terrorists shot dead? How many of your holy places have they attacked? Can you give me the name and a linked report of organized militants from these communities operating in aforementioned category of countries? How many agencies of these above-mentioned communities are having entire list of countries sympathetic and have been state-sponsoring them? I'd appreciate if you can also state me this.

I am talking here specifically of countries that adhere to your religion as the official state religion. Let us not bring East in the middle because East has a different set of faith(s) than what the thread-starting article seems to sympathize with.



Are you criticizing the Afghan war? Seriously? After what Taliban has done to their own people and also abetted in militant activities in the West as well as your country, India? Collateral damage is a tragic and unavoidable part of any war which can only be minimized though repeated trials and not completely eliminated. You want to equate that to organized militancy based on some tents or order? War crimes are an inherent part of any war that is not state-sponsored and you know it. Iraq war is a waste and a needless waste of money and life, for which not just American citizens but also entire NATO as well as neutral countries such as mine heavily criticize the Pentagon.

You'd want to know that there are more protesters in the West who are actually sensibly protesting Iraq war than a bunch of fundamentalist-sympathizers burning down a dozen cars and shops in South Asia or middle east whichever region you wish to associate this scenario with.

I am a stern critic of United States' military excursions sometimes but when it comes to this article and your points raised, I'll have to disagree. We Swiss are neither NATO nor have in past belonged to Soviet Bloc and even today are not a part of any alliance. But I would like to emphasize that Western countries don't target any muslim or eastern country with the intention of harming its civilians. What is happening in Afghanistan (barring Iraq) is extremely unfortunate. I don't understand how you conveniently place the blame on Western "foreigners" instead of hating Taliban using fellow muslim Afghan civilians as human shields against the ISAF troops.

Afghanistan under the Taliban was becoming a dangerous pot of boiling water that would have caused injuries to the handful stable economies your part of the world has: the Persian/Arabian Gulf countries that have a wonderful record of peaceful and stable economies, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka who though not as prosperous are the only stable economies currently in the region with vibrant diaspora. As far as I am aware, even India has been a victim of Taliban in one hijacking case that I am not able to clearly recollect.

If you want to explicitly talk about Iraq, you have my agreement that it was needless as there were no traces of WMDs even though Saddam Hussein had used (Chemical weapons, biological weapons) them against Iran and killed over a million Iranians in the 8-year Iran-Iraq war. Right?

Yes If this is the case, then I should agree with you. :rolleyes:

Parshuram Dear

Instead of answering question, take a little pain and put the events of the two sides in reverse chronological order of thier occurance. You would have a very good FACT SHEET at your disposal. :smitten:

Fighter
 
Back
Top Bottom