Musharraf ruined PAF project, says ex-air chief

[Arsalan]

well i guess the people are getting a bit too excited about the new govrnment, leaders and the so called free judiciary!!! i have yet to see an action by his highness Mr. Iftikha Sb that i about the betterment of current situation of the country. all our judiciary is after the corruption cases of mush era and there is nothing about the current crisis! by the way if musharraf was wron then so were his policies and so was the NRO that brought the love of the nation Mr.Zardari to power! what about this then! is there anyone from the free judiciary to challenge NRO, is there anyone in this free judiciary system who can give us one reason that how can a person involved in hundred of cases on pakistan and abroad can be made the leader of the nation, the president overnight just by a resolution by Musharraf who they all call as the wrong person! why is no one from this free judiciary taking any action on the cancelation of article 58-2B, why is the assemblies being powered, what are the charter of democracy!!
look all respected members, this is no offense to anyone of you, but with all respect, i guess we people are a bit to fool. everyone of our politicians comes, make fool of us and then is replaced by his brother in arms or what should i say. this is the harsh realtiy! are we the people from whom it is said that:
"a beleiver cannot be betrayed twice from a same person" in our language it goes like
" momin aik surakh sa do dafa na dasa jata" nut alas we keep on electing the same faces over and over again,
sometime i feel that all hese parties, the PPP, the PML and all that are not against each other and all they say are mere words! there is sometypr of understanding between them that, look this our tenuer, let us get and grab all we can and after three or four years you can come and have you share!

i guess i have been a bit too excited abou the topic!
i am sorry if i hurt anyone of you!

thanks fellows!
regards!

 

[MastanKhan]

I am not disrespectful towards Musharff.
His being president is a child who has physical existence but its parent were married or not , that’s the main issue.


Whole country is bubbling with the achievements we made under his leader ship

Hi,

What difference does it make if the parents are not married---other than social---and religious issues---so a child conceived out of wedlock any less human than otherwise!

 

[Murshad]

Originally Posted by MastanKhan
Hi,

What difference does it make if the parents are not married---other than social---and religious issues---so a child conceived out of wedlock any less human than otherwise!

My Dear you are right, there are only social and religious issues. These social and religious issues matter a lot even in North America too. Here in Canada, there is law that you can not discriminate such people even those, who are queer can put you in hot water if they complain that they are discriminated.
But my dear in private meeting these people are least likely to be invited other than someone from their “own class” is organizing the event. In some ethnic communities wedlock is not important but when such couples go in mixed gathering they are reluctant to tell that they are living without marriage. This is not my experience with Muslim community only but other communities like Catholics and Jews.
Same is the case here, when during discussion Musharf became topic, I can not tell how agonizing it used to be to explain the legitimacy of his being president. By the way thanks for accepting that he was not a legitimate president.
We should not even think about any inhuman for other “human being”. I am wondering how you got this impression. I make witness to my God and say that I don’t have any inhuman feeling at all. I don’t want him to be tied from one leg, like kids do with rats, dragged in the streets and people throwing stones on him. Never ever I want this. I just have desire he should be brought to justice for all his “deeds”.
Ameen Sum Ameen

 

[Arsalan]

My Dear you are right, there are only social and religious issues. These social and religious issues matter a lot even in North America too. Here in Canada, there is law that you can not discriminate such people even those, who are queer can put you in hot water if they complain that they are discriminated.
But my dear in private meeting these people are least likely to be invited other than someone from their “own class” is organizing the event. In some ethnic communities wedlock is not important but when such couples go in mixed gathering they are reluctant to tell that they are living without marriage. This is not my experience with Muslim community only but other communities like Catholics and Jews.
Same is the case here, when during discussion Musharf became topic, I can not tell how agonizing it used to be to explain the legitimacy of his being president. By the way thanks for accepting that he was not a legitimate president.
We should not even think about any inhuman for other “human being”. I am wondering how you got this impression. I make witness to my God and say that I don’t have any inhuman feeling at all. I don’t want him to be tied from one leg, like kids do with rats, dragged in the streets and people throwing stones on him. Never ever I want this. I just have desire he should be brought to justice for all his “deeds”.
Ameen Sum Ameen

what do you have to say about all the pliticians and the mess they have created all around us! what do you think of them and there parents??

 

[jalip]

well i guess the people are getting a bit too excited about the new govrnment, leaders and the so called free judiciary!!! i have yet to see an action by his highness Mr. Iftikha Sb that i about the betterment of current situation of the country. all our judiciary is after the corruption cases of mush era and there is nothing about the current crisis! by the way if musharraf was wron then so were his policies and so was the NRO that brought the love of the nation Mr.Zardari to power! what about this then! is there anyone from the free judiciary to challenge NRO, is there anyone in this free judiciary system who can give us one reason that how can a person involved in hundred of cases on pakistan and abroad can be made the leader of the nation, the president overnight just by a resolution by Musharraf who they all call as the wrong person! why is no one from this free judiciary taking any action on the cancelation of article 58-2B, why is the assemblies being powered, what are the charter of democracy!!
look all respected members, this is no offense to anyone of you, but with all respect, i guess we people are a bit to fool. everyone of our politicians comes, make fool of us and then is replaced by his brother in arms or what should i say. this is the harsh realtiy! are we the people from whom it is said that:
"a beleiver cannot be betrayed twice from a same person" in our language it goes like
" momin aik surakh sa do dafa na dasa jata" nut alas we keep on electing the same faces over and over again,
sometime i feel that all hese parties, the PPP, the PML and all that are not against each other and all they say are mere words! there is sometypr of understanding between them that, look this our tenuer, let us get and grab all we can and after three or four years you can come and have you share!

i guess i have been a bit too excited abou the topic!
i am sorry if i hurt anyone of you!

thanks fellows!
regards!

Sir i was bit shocked to know about you views on politics its batter for you to only give us your point of view on military stuff.
Parliament is supreme and they have to decides on issues not the Chief justice Nro was signed by mushraf and 58 2b was the result of 17 amendment zardari was the result of Mushraf as he gave a dam about pakistan he wanted to save his presidency.
Sir you have to respect what people want otherwise they know how to get it.Zardari will not be hare after 3 years and if the political system keep working then thats the only years he can rule the system will clean it self similar thing will happen to PML N if they dont deliver.
About same people coming again and again if ZA butto was not hanged the PP would be in different form.Sorry who is Momin hare i think you are talking about generals. Let talk about MQM to decrease the pp Influence MQM was created by army and we can see its effects on pakistan and will see them for many years to come.
Will you please elaborate the mess created by politicians do not give me any thing on zardari it was mush who have a deal with banazir and it is the result of that deal zardari is in power
Mess created by army generals always have long lasting effect as it was taken by dictators
You have

1 65 war army decided for war Our economy was good at that cuz of that war its naver recovers
2 Bangladesh creation ( i can provide some evidence about our army war crimes as i was shocked by seeing them from one of my bangali class mate in my University although i think he was exaggerating but their was some truth in it)
3 Mishandling of Afghan gave US modern Pakistan A pakistan with drugs and weapons
4 Mushraf Episode i dont need to explains

please if we wants to be a strong nation we need to give time to political system to mature and army need to define its role permanently not for the time period in which they wants to clear their mess as they are doing know

 

[Murshad]

Originally Posted by arsalanaslam123
what do you have to say about all the pliticians and the mess they have created all around us! what do you think of them and there parents??

Dear it has nothing to do with anybody’s parent. I will never say anything bad to any body’s parent. I just said that whether he was politically legitimate or not. When I say he was not legitimate, I never meant in biological terms. Illegitimacy is being used as simile here with respect to political spectrum.
Now you are talk about politicians, you can talk about fairness or stains on political process but this is a broad daylight fact that if some one comes through ballot , that person is at least political legitimate.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

If we divide Musharraf's time in power
1. In the first quarter he saved Pakistan from bankruptcy.
2. In the second quarter he saved Pakistan after 9/11 from USA (read his book for ref) and brought grass root democracy in Pakistan.
3. In his third quarter Pakistan had strong Stock exchange and huge foreign exchange reserves. Open media policy (All the private TV channels got licenses during his government, even Geo.Tv).
4. In the forth quarter Musharraf become a true dictator to save his chair not Pakistan, when he could have left the power without 17th amendment and NRO with dignity. He gave away Pak Army's land to MMA leader in NWFP as bribe for 17th amendment, Thanks to NRO Pakistan foreign exchange reserves fell to half as the thieves took their money out (any one know what happened Kalia Khanani case).

 

[Arsalan]

If we divide Musharraf's time in power
1. In the first quarter he saved Pakistan from bankruptcy.
2. In the second quarter he saved Pakistan after 9/11 from USA (read his book for ref) and brought grass root democracy in Pakistan.
3. In his third quarter Pakistan had strong Stock exchange and huge foreign exchange reserves. Open media policy (All the private TV channels got licenses during his government, even Geo.Tv).
4. In the forth quarter Musharraf become a true dictator to save his chair not Pakistan, when he could have left the power without 17th amendment and NRO with dignity. He gave away Pak Army's land to MMA leader in NWFP as bribe for 17th amendment, Thanks to NRO Pakistan foreign exchange reserves fell to half as the thieves took their money out (any one know what happened Kalia Khanani case).

this is a fair enough analysis of the musharaf regim!

good work!

i guess this sum it up and there is not much left to discuss about!, i hope that Mods are thinking on the same note!

regards!

 

[Murshad]

Originally Posted by Gin ka Pakistan
If we divide Musharraf's time in power
1. In the first quarter he saved Pakistan from bankruptcy

1 He took power through a illegitimate way in 1999 and put Pakistan in rear mode. Now can some one say what was the reason for that military cope at that time. A group of generals acted as gangsters and took power.

2. In the second quarter he saved Pakistan after 9/11 from USA (read his book for ref) and brought grass root democracy in Pakistan.

2 It has been denied at very serious level by US govt. that that kind of threatening language. Even it has also been quoted that US top brass was not expecting that kind of obedience from Pak govt. Gen MAD was allegedly used as communicating tool but some US official refused that kind of threats.

3. In his third quarter Pakistan had strong Stock exchange and huge foreign exchange reserves. Open media policy (All the private TV channels got licenses during his government, even Geo.Tv).

3 Pakistan saw biggest financial scandal in this period. Consumer economy was introduced without adequate infrastructure. Cellular phones were made a scale for economic prosperity and that bubble when exploded, all know what happened. We can give him credit for media policy

4. In the forth quarter Musharraf become a true dictator to save his chair not Pakistan, when he could have left the power without 17th amendment and NRO with dignity. He gave away Pak Army's land to MMA leader in NWFP as bribe for 17th amendment, Thanks to NRO Pakistan foreign exchange reserves fell to half as the thieves took their money out (any one know what happened Kalia Khanani case).

4 No dictator leaves or wants to leave power. MMA was a brainchild of gangster generals and MMA is abbreviated name of “Mullah Military Itehad” He tainted the image of Pak army in a way that we need a lot of blood to clean these stains.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I fully agree with Gin Ka Pakistan, let us have the courage to call a spade -- a spade. What he did good -- it should be acknowledged, what he did bad should be pointed out so that it is not repeated.

Let us move on -- Pakistan needs nation building and for those who want "justice" the Justice (The other Chief) and the N style should remember that Justice is not person specific but deed specific -- all those who usurped a civilian government should be taken to task!!!

 

[Arsalan]

Sir i was bit shocked to know about you views on politics its batter for you to only give us your point of view on military stuff.
Parliament is supreme and they have to decides on issues not the Chief justice Nro was signed by mushraf and 58 2b was the result of 17 amendment zardari was the result of Mushraf as he gave a dam about pakistan he wanted to save his presidency.
Sir you have to respect what people want otherwise they know how to get it.Zardari will not be hare after 3 years and if the political system keep working then thats the only years he can rule the system will clean it self similar thing will happen to PML N if they dont deliver.
About same people coming again and again if ZA butto was not hanged the PP would be in different form.Sorry who is Momin hare i think you are talking about generals. Let talk about MQM to decrease the pp Influence MQM was created by army and we can see its effects on pakistan and will see them for many years to come.
Will you please elaborate the mess created by politicians do not give me any thing on zardari it was mush who have a deal with banazir and it is the result of that deal zardari is in power
Mess created by army generals always have long lasting effect as it was taken by dictators
You have

1 65 war army decided for war Our economy was good at that cuz of that war its naver recovers
2 Bangladesh creation ( i can provide some evidence about our army war crimes as i was shocked by seeing them from one of my bangali class mate in my University although i think he was exaggerating but their was some truth in it)
3 Mishandling of Afghan gave US modern Pakistan A pakistan with drugs and weapons
4 Mushraf Episode i dont need to explains

please if we wants to be a strong nation we need to give time to political system to mature and army need to define its role permanently not for the time period in which they wants to clear their mess as they are doing know

i wold have liked it more if you would have bothered to clear some of the points that i have posted in response to my post! ! !
can you just tell me one thing, you called the parliment supream! which parliment are you talking about? i guess you will be well aware that in Pakistan no Parliment have completed it proposed time of rule and the assemblies are alwasy dissolved well before five years legal time! ! !(apart form the last one which was working under a dictator)

anyway i am not a big fan of military generals as you have preceived. they do lots and lots of wrong things, i am not a blind supporter of there acts but asdly enough i have yet to know about an action by a politician that can be appreciated and supported!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

anyway the thread is becomming more of a political debate rather then an aviation one but better stay off it!

so its me signing off!
take care

regards!

 

[jalip]

I think I have answered all of them I am supporting the system not the politican if you read my thread you will find. Butto bring home the 90000 soldiers ( still our army think they are some thing) i think its one of the heaviest defeat in modern times, 73 constitution was given to us by the same gentleman Nawaz sharif gave us the courage to become a Atomic power and was started by ZAB, Imran khan gave US the world cup, butto was the one who established first steel mill with russian help, public and politician gave US free judiciary
You can support any body this is free world my friend but at least respect the people will ( 2/3 majority govt was over thrown and u might have gen Athsham zammeer Number call him and find what was his accomplishment)and again dont give me the zardari **** Mushraf negotiated deal with banazir and that led zardari to become president.

 

[Javed3]

In the context of this thread, corruption in Defense procurement deals is nothing remarkable.

Our honorable General Musharraf sahib was not such a squeaky clean soul either. During his tenure most of the Defense deals were done through M/s Kestral Trading; which is in fact proxy owned by his son Bilal Musharraf. Kestral CEO Mr. Liaqat Ali Baig is a front for influential "in law" Brig. (r) Aftab Siddiqui. Kestral was endowed with the agencies of M/s Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, L-3, Pratt & Whitney and several companies from China and Europe through "recommendations" of the US Embassy and President House. Normally it is impossible to get agencies of companies offering the same product lines; but in Kestral case Sher Aur Bakri Aik Ghat Pani Peetey They.

During Musharraf's tenure PAF was considered the hand maiden of Kestral. Both Kaleem Saadat and Tanveer Mahmood demosntrated extreme weaknesses to withstand the pressures exerted by the President house to direct lucrative deals through Kestral. During his tenure Kestral successfully concluded deals worth about US$ 7 b.

 

[Sapper]

In the context of this thread, corruption in Defense procurement deals is nothing remarkable.

Our honorable General Musharraf sahib was not such a squeaky clean soul either. During his tenure most of the Defense deals were done through M/s Kestral Trading; which is in fact proxy owned by his son Bilal Musharraf. Kestral CEO Mr. Liaqat Ali Baig is a front for influential "in law" Brig. (r) Aftab Siddiqui. Kestral was endowed with the agencies of M/s Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, L-3, Pratt & Whitney and several companies from China and Europe through "recommendations" of the US Embassy and President House. Normally it is impossible to get agencies of companies offering the same product lines; but in Kestral case Sher Aur Bakri Aik Ghat Pani Peetey They.

During Musharraf's tenure PAF was considered the hand maiden of Kestral. Both Kaleem Saadat and Tanveer Mahmood demosntrated extreme weaknesses to withstand the pressures exerted by the President house to direct lucrative deals through Kestral. During his tenure Kestral successfully concluded deals worth about US$ 7 b.

Please don't take this the wrong way ... I am NOT trying to defend Musharraf or his (alleged) actions here ... I just get frustrated when I see intelligent, educated and well read individuals getting carried away by rumors.

I have a few observations that I have inferred from this thread ...

1. Please site your source for the above RUMOR.
2. As far as i understand, the Chinese AEW&C were ordered to diversify the inventory, and preventing PAF from placing all its eggs in one basket. I like this ideology, even if the Chinese systems are a bit inferior.
3. Also Chinese systems will be fully compatible with Chinese Avionics of JF17 and FC20.
4. Although Musharraf's involvement in shifting some resources from Sweden to China is proven, his CRIMINAL involvement is yet to be proven. On the other hand ACM's personal involvement with Saab is a matter of public knowledge now, since he admitted it himself.
5. My Optimistic belief is that both had good of our Country at heart, Musharraf was right in his call to diversify assets, and ACM was correct in trying to avoid over-pressuring PAF with the burden of two separate technologies.
6. If anyone has proof, please present it, if not, SHUT UP. Both of these guys have served to protect my motherland for more than my lifetime. They are Heroes to me, and unless proven otherwise, i will take serious offense to anyone who tries to defame army or its personnel, all based on some third rate rumors.

Regards,
Sapper