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Musharraf ruined PAF project, says ex-air chief

Hi,

Education in itself will not get you too far.............Maybe a little difficult to integrate but not impossible.
Musharraf like any dictator was a one man show. The way he changed the three prime-ministers one after other should be enough to understand his mindset and his desire for having a 'team'. Even the Corp Commanders complaint that he doesn't listen to the advice of his own men in uniform.

At any rate, I support his decision of buying Chinese AWACS.
 
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......an illeterate guy who rose to the rank of General,just like GENERAL YAHYA and GENERAL NIAZI.
Dr. A.Q. Khan loves to say this about the officers of the armed forces.... But having a PhD is and must not be the only criteria of pronouncing someone 'literate'. No officer from the armed forces is 'illiterate'. They may have a formal education up to the FSc/FA level, but in order to get promotions, they have to study and pass several professional courses. Command and Staff College, School of Infantry, War College etc were established for some purpose. It is like an Engineer or a MBBS doctor; both have a formal education to the FSc level. After that they only study the specific subjects required for the successful execution of their respective professions.

Fatman, MuradK, Karskin Sahebs, would you like to share with us when an how often officers are required to take several courses during their career? And who are the diploma/degree-awarding institutions for such courses?
 
Musharraf completed his course in War College in UK .
Source : His Book
 
Musharraf like any dictator was a one man show. The way he changed the three prime-ministers one after other should be enough to understand his mindset and his desire for having a 'team'. Even the Corp Commanders complaint that he doesn't listen to the advice of his own men in uniform.

Agreed 100%. Many people try to argue with me that Musharraf was better than any politician we've had, and all I say in return is, he was a dictator with absolute authority. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Everyone makes mistakes, the main difference between his and others' mistakes were, his were that much more absolute and irreversible.

Exampe, Zardari had to reinstate the judges after much pressure from the Long March. In Musharraf's days, that would have never happened because Musharraf enjoyed much more power than Zardari does. There are benefits to weak democracies over dictatorships, and this is one. That said, Musharraf may well have been a great leader, but he was just too damn powerful.

Now that I've gone off topic, let me bring it back. I too agree with the decision to buy from the Chinese. However, the Swede systems are also very important.
 
I am addressing those guys that what to know the difference between chinese and western (swedish too) AEW platforms. We must remember that the functions of AWACS/AEW are not restricted to early detection of aerial threats. Its more than that. We can enlarge its mission by including Electronic Warfare too, which includes ELINT, COMINT and SIGINT. We must see that what kind of capability the chinese AEW shall impart to Pakistan......

Here I am quoting a post by H Khan on pakdef...........



H Khan
01-06-2002, 01:58 PM

I take E-3 AWACS over anything period!

You need to know what this baby has. I was reading somewhere was that whenever an E-3 goes into an active mission the first thing it does is it jams all the radar and phone lines of the opposing side even before it starts to track & scan the air space.

During the last CENTO excercise in 1978 a EF-111 took off from Masroor air base and flew 40 miles away from the base. It zeroed its jamming frequncies towards Masroor and jammed all the phone lines of the Base. The jamming was in the form of all the phones in Masroor started to ring togather and when the receiver was picked up the phone was still ringing, i.e., no use of the phone lines at all.
PAF needs Mirage 2000-5 and Erieye togather.
 
I am addressing those guys that what to know the difference between chinese and western (swedish too) AEW platforms. We must remember that the functions of AWACS/AEW are not restricted to early detection of aerial threats. Its more than that. We can enlarge its mission by including Electronic Warfare too, which includes ELINT, COMINT and SIGINT. We must see that what kind of capability the chinese AEW shall impart to Pakistan......

Here I am quoting a post by H Khan on pakdef...........



H Khan
01-06-2002, 01:58 PM

I take E-3 AWACS over anything period!

You need to know what this baby has. I was reading somewhere was that whenever an E-3 goes into an active mission the first thing it does is it jams all the radar and phone lines of the opposing side even before it starts to track & scan the air space.

During the last CENTO excercise in 1978 a EF-111 took off from Masroor air base and flew 40 miles away from the base. It zeroed its jamming frequncies towards Masroor and jammed all the phone lines of the Base. The jamming was in the form of all the phones in Masroor started to ring togather and when the receiver was picked up the phone was still ringing, i.e., no use of the phone lines at all.
PAF needs Mirage 2000-5 and Erieye togather.

I took part in that exercise they later showed us by jamming different parts of Karachi by using only 30 % of its power.
 
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Dr. A.Q. Khan loves to say this about the officers of the armed forces.... But having a PhD is and must not be the only criteria of pronouncing someone 'literate'. No officer from the armed forces is 'illiterate'. They may have a formal education up to the FSc/FA level, but in order to get promotions, they have to study and pass several professional courses. Command and Staff College, School of Infantry, War College etc were established for some purpose. It is like an Engineer or a MBBS doctor; both have a formal education to the FSc level. After that they only study the specific subjects required for the successful execution of their respective professions.

Fatman, MuradK, Karskin Sahebs, would you like to share with us when an how often officers are required to take several courses during their career? And who are the diploma/degree-awarding institutions for such courses?

Currently no officer in the rank of Lt Gen, AVM, Vice Adm in the Pakistanis armed forces has less than a master's degree. To call these Generals illiterate is an indication of illiteracy itself in my humble opinion (as I mentioned in my previous post, the Army is much more experienced and educated than the days of Yahya Khan and others). All those attending the National Defence Course @ NDU are essentially pursuing post-graduate work starting off around the time when they are Brigadiers and are deemed to have potential to go beyond.

By the time you take a tally of the amount of time spent in a classroom by a typical officer of the rank of Lt Col, he has definitely done enough schooling to qualify him for a master's level education. The only difference is that the armed forces have very trade specific courses and they cannot be lumped under one program and awarded a degree for. This is where structured programs at NDU [Armed Forces War Course for mid level Field officers (Lt Cols etc.) and National Defence Course for Brigs] are offered. By the time they get to this point, they have already gone through many special to arms courses as well as having attended Command and Staff college @ Quetta. So overall there has been a lot of schooling done by the time one makes a General in the Pakistan Army of today.
 
I part in that exercise they later showed us by jamming different parts of Karachi by using only 30 % of its power.
So Sir do we have any counter measures now?Can Indian Falcons jam our communication lines?
 
So Sir do we have any counter measures now?Can Indian Falcons jam our communication lines?

One thing to be mindful of is the fact that this jamming happened on the local analog telephone exchanges in Karachi. Military communications are on different spectrum and harder to jam than an unprotected consumer voice exchange.
 
One thing to be mindful of is the fact that this jamming happened on the local analog telephone exchanges in Karachi. Military communications are on different spectrum and harder to jam than an unprotected consumer voice exchange.

Jamming is not really top tech. FM is easily jammed. Hell, even bad designs can cause problems over the FMspectrum and if you put a lot of Watts out then you know that something is gone...

About the special frequency emitters... If thye ar eon then you can be sure you can find them. Just make them shut up with bomb that homes on that frequency...
 
Currently no officer in the rank of Lt Gen, AVM, Vice Adm in the Pakistanis armed forces has less than a master's degree. To call these Generals illiterate is an indication of illiteracy itself in my humble opinion (as I mentioned in my previous post, the Army is much more experienced and educated than the days of Yahya Khan and others). All those attending the National Defence Course @ NDU are essentially pursuing post-graduate work starting off around the time when they are Brigadiers and are deemed to have potential to go beyond.

By the time you take a tally of the amount of time spent in a classroom by a typical officer of the rank of Lt Col, he has definitely done enough schooling to qualify him for a master's level education. The only difference is that the armed forces have very trade specific courses and they cannot be lumped under one program and awarded a degree for. This is where structured programs at NDU [Armed Forces War Course for mid level Field officers (Lt Cols etc.) and National Defence Course for Brigs] are offered. By the time they get to this point, they have already gone through many special to arms courses as well as having attended Command and Staff college @ Quetta. So overall there has been a lot of schooling done by the time one makes a General in the Pakistan Army of today.


By the time you are a Wing Cdre or Lt Col best of the best go to USA and uk, PAF sends them to ACSC Maxwell AFB or Royal ACSC , Army guy goes to War college Turkey , UK. That gives you Masters in Military Operations, at the rank of Air Cdre or Birg best of the best go for Royal NDC rest go to Islamabad That is equal to MSC. So by the time a Birg or Air Cdre have done there 4 year tenure they have 2 BA and 2 Masters.
A person who goes to Royal NDC which has another name Royal College of defence studies is 100% sure that he will make Maj Gen or AVM.
JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING
Air Cdre Farid Ali Shah the most educated officer in the history of PAF from 42gdp. He goes to ROYAL NDC breaks there record for scoring higest marks than anyone since 1927, Becomes a SIR comes back to PAF and they send him home no promotion why because he told the son of AVM Dilawar the famous Dilawar to get a haicut because Farid was Commanding Sargodha so this kid of Dilawar was a cadet and had long hair the cadet tell and Air Cdre fuc- off Farid punishes him and looses his job arent we a great nation.
 
JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING
Air Cdre Farid Ali Shah the most educated officer in the history of PAF from 42gdp. He goes to ROYAL NDC breaks there record for scoring higest marks than anyone since 1927, Becomes a SIR comes back to PAF and they send him home no promotion why because he told the son of AVM Dilawar the famous Dilawar to get a haicut because Farid was Commanding Sargodha so this kid of Dilawar was a cadet and had long hair the cadet tell and Air Cdre fuc- off Farid punishes him and looses his job arent we a great nation.
Yes this is the most unfortunate and it happens everywhere. My Dad served for 38 years and had a distinguished career. Before doing Science, I wanted to be a civil servant but based on his experience and knowing my nature he never wanted me to be a civil servant. Anyway, I did appear in PCS (provincial civil services) exam in 1998, passed with distinction and was about to become an Assistant Commissioner….. And my Dad said, no way. Do anything but no civil services. I guess he was right, because several of my friends also went to civil services, most became the part of the corrupt system, one, and the most brilliant person I have ever met, served for two years and later resigned.
 
Hi,

Here is interesting article-------




Our Funny Ex-Generals and Bureaucrats
By Humayun Gauhar
Islamabad, Pakistan
Today there is a growing list of jobless generals and some bureaucrats who have become self-styled ‘analysts’ on television and newspapers where they declare their belated love for democracy.
Retired bureaucrats and generals (and some untainted but naive ‘intellectuals’ who should not be seen in such company) have been writing letters to President Musharraf asking him to resign.
It’s a transparent attempt at populism, to somehow make history forget their past.
The latest is a letter from ex-servicemen whose president is none other than Lt. General Faiz Ali Chishti of the Bhutto execution fame, which should tell you something. If even one of these belated lovers of democracy had resigned while they were serving tyrants, they would have had great credibility.
Look at these guys. Their latest meeting was chaired by an air marshal, otherwise a great gentleman who diminished himself in politics, who was deputy chief martial law administrator during our first martial law.
He discovered democracy only after retirement, but not entirely, for he is most remembered for writing a letter to soldiers not to obey the unlawful commands of their superior officers. To save whose government were those commands given? Bhutto’s, who was the opposition’s fiercest adversary. Neither did he issue a mercy appeal against Bhutto’s hanging when the Supreme Court’s judgment was so divided.
Back in the early Eighties, I went to the Royal Free Hospital, London, to call on our ambassador Brig. F. R. Khan who was suffering from cancer. Lt. General Chishti arrived to a full waiting room and rhetorically asked: “Do you want to see the man who hanged Bhutto? You are looking at the man who hanged Bhutto.” It was appalling. The silence was deafening.
Then there is the pompous retired army chief who ordered the then ISI chief to illegally disburse Rs. 140 million from a private bank to buy our eminently purchasable politicians.
They formed the IJI to defeat the PPP in the 1990 elections. Talk of democracy.
Another former ISI chief had the decency to apologize unreservedly, so I will not recall his glorious deeds.
Yet another, having served at least one martial law regime, has become the best spokesman America has in Pakistan. In television circles he is known as ‘The man who knows everything’.
Many of these retired generals and bleeding heart ex-bureaucrats willingly and unconscionably held very senior and sensitive positions during General Yahya Khan’s genocide of East Pakistan that broke the country. Objective? To deny the Bengalis their democratic rights and nullify their will.
These fellows’ hands are stained with so much blood that it doesn’t bear description. They should see annexure of the Hamoodur Rahman Report which lists the girls that a ‘tigerish’ fellow general raped or had raped. It will make your head swim. These are the guys who, along with their commanders, played a stellar role in breaking Pakistan. I can tell you so much about such people, many, many of them, that I dread the day I decide to write my autobiography.
If these guys really were democrats they would say that all PCO judges are illegal, regardless of under which PCO they took oath. Amazingly, some of them are asking for the deposed chief justice of Musharraf’s first PCO to be made president. Next they will say that since India is a great democracy, we should ask Atal Bihari Vajpayee to be our caretaker prime minister and old Sinha to be the chief election commissioner. Why don’t they just put a torch to what they have left of Pakistan and be done with it? Haven’t they done enough damage already?
Many of these old dodderers celebrated when Musharraf took over, for they started dreaming of cushy jobs. Every dictator needs them, for trained assassins are not easy to find. I personally know some who moved heaven and earth to join his team, begging all and sundry who had Musharraf’s ear to the point of embarrassment. When they didn’t get any job they turned democrat and turned on Musharraf. Methinks all this noise and bluster is to catch the next prime minister’s eye, that they are still available, able and willing. I bet if even now Musharraf offered them a glittering enough job, many would take it without batting an eyelid.
We would listen to the members of this ‘Old Minions Club’ if they did a public taubah and started their letters by saying, “We who have worked for elected and unelected dictators offer our profound apologies to the nation and ask for forgiveness. We are asking you to learn from our misdeeds, of which we are ashamed, so that you may not repeat them.”
They would have got not only our attention but also our forgiveness. The late great Akhtar Hameed Khan was the only bureaucrat I can recall who resigned because he was against the system. There were a few others. People respectfully listened to his every word.
These ex-servicemen are not the only ones to have damaged Pakistan. The judiciary takes pride of place, for having sanctified every military takeover.
Only once did the Supreme Court show some gumption when it reinstated Nawaz Sharif’s dismissed government in 1993. But he was made to resign by the then army chief. Where were these gentlemen then? Where was the Supreme Court Bar Association? Where were the lawyers? Where was civil society? Benazir rightly asked: where were these people when the judiciary was doing all those vile things to her father by the SC? Where were they when the Supreme Court was attacked and an earlier Chief Justice forced to resign by bribing his fellow judges.
It was only last year that the Supreme Court went hyperactive because of a hyper-ambitious chief justice. The Supreme Court didn’t even have the guts to allow the Supreme Judicial Council to hear the reference against him. Was his position so weak? One would develop respect for the sacked chief justice if he insisted that the reference be heard so that he can clear his name, not hide behind the coattails of his brother judges who wouldn’t even allow a constitutional procedure to proceed.
Instead of praising them, the current president of the SCBA, Mr. Aitzaaz Ahsan, mocked the 1997 Supreme Court judges for reinstating Nawaz Sharif, suggesting that their ‘lordships’ had been swayed by the glitter of his gold - chamak.
The gentleman’s understanding of democracy is such that after having lost his election in 1997, he sneaked into parliament via the Senate’s backdoor, making a mockery of the people’s will, the cornerstone of democracy. Then he became leader of the opposition in the Senate, and because Benazir was absconding, the leader of all of the opposition in parliament!
Today ‘Mr. Democracy’ is calling for a boycott of all PCO judges. Would the gentleman like to clarify which PCO he means? Musharraf’s first or the second?
He wants an independent judiciary. Yardstick of independence? Those who took oath under Musharraf’s first great PCO.
Most depressing of all, he is prepared to play second fiddle to the other great democrat in today’s Pakistan: Asif Zardari.
(Mr. Gauhar is an Islamabad-based columnist. This is an edited version of an original column appearing inThe Nation, Lahore)
 
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