MQM party worker admits sector incharge started Baldia factory fire

[I.R.A]

Being held up at gun point is very different. Being at the mercy of ruthless torturers, bound, gagged and naked, on and off ice periodically with severe beating, starvation, extreme and abnormal stretching of the limbs, introduction of extraordinary equipment into crevices, electric shocks to the private parts, sleep deprivation etc., as normal, everyday torture matters of the LEA......add to that the new favourite, water boarding.

Under torture, everyone breaks and starts speaking things that the torcherer wants to hear.

The primary agent of our agencies, to break someone, is torture. Is there a wonder we have such an abundance of jokes on the torture of LEAs? Torture is unproductive and pointless and its result is usually false information.

I understand your concern dear. However, the thing is what one should do when he knows that this thug has looted, murdered and raped and law won't punish him unless we get a confession out of him? and that is necessary because they kill all the witnesses (Wali Babar case nearly all witnesses were targeted and killed). If you could answer my question and come up with a solution fine share it, otherwise in my view the only alternate is what happened in Swat.

 

[ice_man]

mazloomiyat ka drama katal karnay kay baad MQM deserves oscars for it.

burning people alive in baldia town asking bhatta killing Imran Farooq 12th May 2007, and many many more

i say rangers operation at 90 was inadequate we need to do more to get rid of the bad MQM and the good guys should be brought together and either a new MQM be made or the old one can remain but remove the bad elements.

 

[Mav3rick]

I understand your concern dear. However, the thing is what one should do when he knows that this thug has looted, murdered and raped and law won't punish him unless we get a confession out of him? and that is necessary because they kill all the witnesses (Wali Babar case nearly all witnesses were targeted and killed). If you could answer my question and come up with a solution fine share it, otherwise in my view the only alternate is what happened in Swat.

There is an easy solution, develop the forensic ability of our LEAs. I know for a fact that it is being done but a lot of work is focussed for Punjab only, Sind is playing second fiddle where the officers haven't yet been trained and neither has all the equipment been delivered to lift/scan and match finger prints or perform DNA profiling, ballistic analysis etc.

Without all that, we are more likely to punish the wrong person. Recent lynching of the innocent man in Lahore is a prime example.

 

[ice_man]

I understand your concern dear. However, the thing is what one should do when he knows that this thug has looted, murdered and raped and law won't punish him unless we get a confession out of him? and that is necessary because they kill all the witnesses (Wali Babar case nearly all witnesses were targeted and killed). If you could answer my question and come up with a solution fine share it, otherwise in my view the only alternate is what happened in Swat.

why are you fighting with these people bhai? these people have direct relatives working for MQM. they will never bite the hand that feeds them.

leave it let it go. their mazloom card like PPP shaheeed card will always go on & and on.

 

[I.R.A]

why are you fighting with these people bhai?

Because they are Pakistanis and like me they also want Pakistan cricket team to win against Australia in QF

leave it let it go. their mazloom card like PPP shaheeed card will always go on & and on.

Well I will wait for PPP and ANP's turn. If it comes then may be they will realise why it was all necessary. Moka acha hai q na in sab siyasat dano ko jahaz may band kar kay sumander may dbo dain? What do you say han han

 

[Bratva]

There is a reason why the west developed, and continues to invest heavily, in forensic analysis. Confessions, under any circumstances within remand custody, are unacceptable in any court of law around the world including Pakistan.........do you know why? Because under torture, physical/mental/psychological etc., everyone wants relief and would say anything to his/her immediate advantage. You and I would do the exact same thing.

I can guarantee 1 thing with certainty, any single member of this forum would confess to anything and everything, that the torturer wishes from him/her, within 10 minutes of remand custody proceedings. But, would that be justice served? This debate is not about whether MQM affiliated killers targeted Wali Babar or not but rather on the possibility that all these confessions are forced under torture or not.

Do you want justice or just plain revenge, on anyone?

Were killers of Wali babur khan apprehended through forensic analysis or in a good old fashion way ? A witness identifying certain person from killing scene, they rounded him up, put him under the knife/interrogation, gave up his team. They rounded rest of them through SIGINT.

Before proving anything else before court of law, Rangers intelligence/IB/CID/MI/ISI wants to glean actionable intelligence from a suspect to prevent next major attack. how do you think, rangers came to knew about target killers and weapons cache in 9-0 ? Forensic analysis can get you up to a certain point. But it won't yield actionable intelligence.

I guess your knowledge on our agencies is different from mine. And the former is not just limited to agencies either but also the effectiveness of the so called 'truth serum' which is not used in the first world countries for a particular reason.

Rangers pickup certain person on a conjectures, they put him under mental duress, inject sodium pentathol. He is mentally unconscious and can't resist the urge of telling whatever they asking and will reveal the locations, his go to contacts, safe houses. They need actionable intelligence at all cost which will they then corroborate with the intel they had. There are no militias,armed wings menace in first world countries. If they had, they would have used truth serum to get actionable intel as well.

There is an easy solution, develop the forensic ability of our LEAs. I know for a fact that it is being done but a lot of work is focussed for Punjab only, Sind is playing second fiddle where the officers haven't yet been trained and neither has all the equipment been delivered to lift/scan and match finger prints or perform DNA profiling, ballistic analysis etc.

Without all that, we are more likely to punish the wrong person. Recent lynching of the innocent man in Lahore is a prime example.

Sindh Gov spend 4-5 billion rs on SSU in 2013-14. I hope you have seen their gear. Someone posted images of their gear. What's stopping them from spending 1-2 billion on improving forensic capabilities of sindh police ?

 

[batmannow]

Would killers of Wali babur khan were apprehended through forensic analysis or in a good old way ? A witness identifying certain person from killing scene, they rounded him up, put him under interrogation, gave up his team. They rounded rest of them through SIGINT.

Before proving anything else before court of law, Rangers intelligence/IB/CID/MI/ISI wants to glean actionable intelligence from a suspect to prevent next major attack. how do you think, rangers came to knew about target killers and weapons cache in 9-0 ? Forensic analysis can get you up to a certain point. But it won't yield actionable intelligence.




Rangers pickup certain person on a conjectures, they put him under mental duress, inject sodium pentathol. He is mentally unconscious and can't resist the urge of telling whatever they asking and will reveal the locations, his go to contacts, safe houses. They need actionable intelligence at all cost which will they then corroborate with the intel they had. There are no militias,armed wings menace in first world countries. If they had, they would have used truth serum to get actionable intel as well.



Sindh Gov spend 4-5 billion rs on SSU in 2013-14. I hope you have seen their gear. Someone posted images of their gear. What's stopping them from spending 1-2 billion on improving forensic capabilities of sindh police ?

All was done with agreement of MQM leadership, if not you think they cant see 4 he 4 toyota s coming into 90 ? Hot shot?
proble started after , the raid genious , cause infiltrated elements of MQM haqiqi & PPPP z in IB & in rangers started intergoation of the arested persons , 2 have died already severl are nearly to die ?
Sadly establishment have no choice to be with the intergoation group ?

 

[Mav3rick]

Were killers of Wali babur khan apprehended through forensic analysis or in a good old fashion way ? A witness identifying certain person from killing scene, they rounded him up, put him under the knife/interrogation, gave up his team. They rounded rest of them through SIGINT.

Apparently!

Everything is as the Rangers want it to be, they have become the witness, the jury and the judge and the worst thing is that none of their so called confessions will hold up in any court of law. And who in his/her right mind wants to be a witness to a crime, especially such a high profile crime, in the absence of a witness protection program? It is sad that people like you exist who buy anything and everything that their government sells to them. It is no wonder that Pakistan is considered a terrorist country by the US because her citizens also buy anything and everything from their government.

Before proving anything else before court of law, Rangers intelligence/IB/CID/MI/ISI wants to glean actionable intelligence from a suspect to prevent next major attack. how do you think, rangers came to knew about target killers and weapons cache in 9-0 ? Forensic analysis can get you up to a certain point. But it won't yield actionable intelligence.

This is where our views are precisely opposite. My claim is that no target killers were arrested from 9-0 and whatever weapons cache was recovered from the MQM head office was licensed and registered with the LEAs.

Rangers pickup certain person on a conjectures, they put him under mental duress, inject sodium pentathol. He is mentally unconscious and can't resist the urge of telling whatever they asking and will reveal the locations, his go to contacts, safe houses. They need actionable intelligence at all cost which will they then corroborate with the intel they had. There are no militias,armed wings menace in first world countries. If they had, they would have used truth serum to get actionable intel as well.

As I said, there is a lot of 2 and 2 that has to be calculated and engineered which is the reason the intelligence gathered is usually not so intelligent and un-actionable in the first world.

Sindh Gov spend 4-5 billion rs on SSU in 2013-14. I hope you have seen their gear. Someone posted images of their gear. What's stopping them from spending 1-2 billion on improving forensic capabilities of sindh police ?

1. Because it would be a lot more then that amoune.
2. There is no will to do that because it would be extremely difficult to doctor forensic evidence.

 

[Bratva]

Apparently!

Everything is as the Rangers want it to be, they have become the witness, the jury and the judge and the worst thing is that none of their so called confessions will hold up in any court of law. And who in his/her right mind wants to be a witness to a crime, especially such a high profile crime, in the absence of a witness protection program? It is sad that people like you exist who buy anything and everything that their government sells to them. It is no wonder that Pakistan is considered a terrorist country by the US because her citizens also buy anything and everything from their government.

‘The keys and chronicles of the Karachi Operation’

And how this banter absolve MQM sins ?

 

[Mav3rick]

‘The keys and chronicles of the Karachi Operation’

And how this banter absolve MQM sins ?

It doesn't and it shouldn't.

Basically, what you have to learn is why MQM needed an armed wing in the first place, especially when it swept Karachi and Hyderabad the first time it participated in elections in '86 or '88. It all started even before that, why was there a need to form the APMSO and so on.

 

[QAMARSHAZADQURESHI]

 

[Amaa'n]

There is a reason why the west developed, and continues to invest heavily, in forensic analysis. Confessions, under any circumstances within remand custody, are unacceptable in any court of law around the world including Pakistan.........do you know why? Because under torture, physical/mental/psychological etc., everyone wants relief and would say anything to his/her immediate advantage. You and I would do the exact same thing.

I can guarantee 1 thing with certainty, any single member of this forum would confess to anything and everything, that the torturer wishes from him/her, within 10 minutes of remand custody proceedings. But, would that be justice served? This debate is not about whether MQM affiliated killers targeted Wali Babar or not but rather on the possibility that all these confessions are forced under torture or not.

Do you want justice or just plain revenge, on anyone?





I guess your knowledge on our agencies is different from mine. And the former is not just limited to agencies either but also the effectiveness of the so called 'truth serum' which is not used in the first world countries for a particular reason.



Being held up at gun point is very different. Being at the mercy of ruthless torturers, bound, gagged and naked, on and off ice periodically with severe beating, starvation, extreme and abnormal stretching of the limbs, introduction of extraordinary equipment into crevices, electric shocks to the private parts, sleep deprivation etc., as normal, everyday torture matters of the LEA......add to that the new favourite, water boarding.

Under torture, everyone breaks and starts speaking things that the torcherer wants to hear.





The primary agent of our agencies, to break someone, is torture. Is there a wonder we have such an abundance of jokes on the torture of LEAs? Torture is unproductive and pointless and its result is usually false information.

Believe me i wasn't going to respond to you but then i thought i must because your information is outdated......
You see now they have more information on the suspect gathered from previous reports, intel extracts, phone records, leaving the suspect with little options but to sing like a bird.... If the hardcore terrorists are being broken down on daily basis who are driven by Religion then these hired thugs are child's play......
The only thing i can comprehend from you comments is that your knowledge is limited to the Chithars by Punjab Police that they very proudly use of small time pocket pickers....

 

[Amaa'n]

Were killers of Wali babur khan apprehended through forensic analysis or in a good old fashion way ? A witness identifying certain person from killing scene, they rounded him up, put him under the knife/interrogation, gave up his team. They rounded rest of them through SIGINT.

Before proving anything else before court of law, Rangers intelligence/IB/CID/MI/ISI wants to glean actionable intelligence from a suspect to prevent next major attack. how do you think, rangers came to knew about target killers and weapons cache in 9-0 ? Forensic analysis can get you up to a certain point. But it won't yield actionable intelligence.




Rangers pickup certain person on a conjectures, they put him under mental duress, inject sodium pentathol. He is mentally unconscious and can't resist the urge of telling whatever they asking and will reveal the locations, his go to contacts, safe houses. They need actionable intelligence at all cost which will they then corroborate with the intel they had. There are no militias,armed wings menace in first world countries. If they had, they would have used truth serum to get actionable intel as well.



Sindh Gov spend 4-5 billion rs on SSU in 2013-14. I hope you have seen their gear. Someone posted images of their gear. What's stopping them from spending 1-2 billion on improving forensic capabilities of sindh police ?

Idk why do you even put up with these kids man, theylse guys lack the on ground experience, probably out in the city for a day or two and they broke eve they have the right perspective......i saw how you responded to that fellow name Rockstar.... We are not here teach them but to counter their opinion, which i don't see in their posts

 

[Amaa'n]

none of their so called confessions will hold up in any court of law. And who in his/her right mind wants to be a witness to a crime, especially such a high profile crime, in the absence of a witness protection program? It is sad that people like you exist who buy anything and everything that their government sells to them. It is no wonder that Pakistan is considered a terrorist country by the US because her citizens also buy anything and everything from their government.





This is where our views are precisely opposite. My claim is that no target killers were arrested from 9-0 and whatever weapons cache was recovered from the MQM head office was licensed and registered with the LEAs.





As I said, there is a lot of 2 and 2 that has to be calculated and engineered which is the reason the intelligence gathered is usually not so intelligent and un-actionable in the first world.





1. Because it would be a lot more then that amoune.
2. There is no will to do that because it would be extremely difficult to doctor forensic evidence.

It happens and is a common practice around the globe, if you cannot get the suspect in one case you are probing try to get him another..... As per Law LEA has the right to confiscate the firearm of any citizen if the grounds of confiscation can be justified.....Licensed or no Licensed that will be determined when the Licensee will be asked to produce the License at the station and verification is done...... By that time you can interrogate the person too in whoms possession the firearm was found in...... You simply dont get it do you......
As per witness protection is concerned then is that a threat you are making to the witness?? Because that sounds like one to me..... Who will come forward as a witness..... Lol so you agree with the fact that people shoild be afraid of mqm???

 

[Mav3rick]

Believe me i wasn't going to respond to you but then i thought i must because your information is outdated......

I am sure nobody would appriciate the effort you put in here to do something that you yourself weren't prepared to do.....the reason to the, well let's just agree to disagree on that as my assumption on your reason would be 'lack of argument'. But thanks for wasting my time anyway.

You see now they have more information on the suspect gathered from previous reports, intel extracts, phone records, leaving the suspect with little options but to sing like a bird.... If the hardcore terrorists are being broken down on daily basis who are driven by Religion then these hired thugs are child's play......

The LEAs were given access to phone taps as late as last year and by the time they grew the requisite experience required to effectively use the system, the crimes that these alleged criminals are being interrogated for had already been committed. Some were committed as far back as 15-20 years. Before last year, only the military intelligence wing and ISI had access to such action and to some very limited instance the CPLC.

Hardcore terrorists or a common man, anybody and everybody has a breaking point. The important thing is, are you willing to take your anger and frustration out on just about anyone......like the lynching victim of Lahore?

The only thing i can comprehend from you comments is that your knowledge is limited to the Chithars by Punjab Police that they very proudly use of small time pocket pickers....

Let's just say that my confidence, on my knowledge, is just as high as yours. However, I have always claimed to be a part of an agency whereas I have no idea what you do for a living so unless you are affiliated with an LEA yourself, the balance of the scales would be decidedly in my favour, self claimed ofcourse.

It happens and is a common practice around the globe, if you cannot get the suspect in one case you are probing try to get him another..... As per Law LEA has the right to confiscate the firearm of any citizen if the grounds of confiscation can be justified.....Licensed or no Licensed that will be determined when the Licensee will be asked to produce the License at the station and verification is done...... By that time you can interrogate the person too in whoms possession the firearm was found in...... You simply dont get it do you......
As per witness protection is concerned then is that a threat you are making to the witness?? Because that sounds like one to me..... Who will come forward as a witness..... Lol so you agree with the fact that people shoild be afraid of mqm???

Your style of posting, and generally of many others, makes it extremely hard to respond as all your sentences are clubbed into a single para.

Anyway, have you ever, actually, read the law about firearms or the right of a licencee?? No you have not and thus your argument.

As for your part in regards to threats, well I can only pity your level of reasoning skills. Hypothetical situation, there is a dacoity and 1 dacoit gets caught. Would I be willing to act as a witness if I were an actual witness? Honestly, I would not be a witness simply because the accomplice(s) of the dacoit, their whereabouts and general SOP's are unknown. Now considering being a star eye witness in a case involving an alleged master hitman of an allegedly extreme terrorist organization.