Mirage-2000H vs MiG-29B Dogfight results are out!!

[MiG-21]

Sorry if it has been posted before.



Beauty vs Beast

Finally a long running debate comes to a closure, a debate which seemed never ending like the size of the cosmos itself. Now that may seem like an exaggeration but that was how the Aviation community found itself whenever the subject of Mirage-2000 & MiG-29 arose. The last time when someone tried to close the debate on F-16 & MiG-29, that someone turned out to be Code One Magazine, which is owned by none other than Lockheed Martin, which manufactures the bloody fighter! So naturally, not the unbiased of sources, Yes? However this time around, the source is a neutral bi-monthly aviation and defence magazine, called Vayu Aerospace, which operates out of a country that not only does not manufacture either of the fighters, but doesn't have any adversaries operating these two platforms to make the reporting of the events biased. Also is the fact that the said country is friendly to both the host countries of the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, France and the Soviet Union respectively. In addition to that, the pilots who flew both the fighters were all from that same neutral country too. A perfect setting if you ask me. So... lets find out from the Indian Air Force, how these two outstanding fighters performed when pitted against each other. As an added bonus, a passing reference to the performance of MiG-23MF is also made, don't miss it.

Beauty vs the Beast


To sum it up:
Sustained turn rate - MiG-29 > Mirage-2000
Instantaneous turn rate - MiG-29 is more or less the same as that of the Mirage-2000
Thrust to Weight Ratio - MiG-29 >> Mirage-2000
MiG-29 didn't even have to use its famed HMS to win the bout. Mirage-2000 doesn't have HMS. If it had used its HMS then all bets are off!

Final Result: MiG-29B kicks Mirage-2000H's asss without breaking a sweat. The outcome was extremely onesided much to the shock of Mirage-2000 pilots who were on cloud 9 after beating the crap out of MiG-23MF. The Mirage-2000 pilot even drank beyond his capacity to wash down the pain.


Does anyone have such IAF accounts for their other fighters? I'd like MiG-21 vs MiG-23 or MiG-21 vs Jaguar or MiG-27.

 

[arp2041]

can you rank IAF's combat planes currently in service on the basis of performance?? I know Su-30s are by far the best what about others??

 

[The Great One]

This was back in the days when MiG-29 were sleek and beautiful. Now, it is just one ugly, fat bi%ch.

 

[arp2041]

This was back in the days when MiG-29 were sleek and beautiful. Now, it is just one ugly, fat bi%ch.

Hey dude, it is just 2009 article (correct me if i am wrong) results i think they cannot change much in 3 years. Also they are being upgraded.

 

[Tangent]

.......The difference lies in word 'multi role'
MiG 29 weren't used to bomb Kargil, but was used on 'sentry' duty, which it did beautifully ( Remember Rajiv Chibber's 'lock on'on F-16 while it was flying on it's air space. F-16 couldn't break it and was let to live another day..as IAF didn't have orders to shoot plabes which didn't cross LOC)
MiG-29 is an excellent Dog Fighter, and M 2000 and excellent 'multi-role'...both as a combination is a 'deadly duo'

 

[MiG-21]

lol, why is it ugly fat bi%ch? Are you referring to the UPG upgrade which gives it a hump? Even so, it is still beautiful. Regardless of Beauty or not, it still kicks asss much more than it previously did, and that's what counts.

can you rank IAF's combat planes currently in service on the basis of performance?? I know Su-30s are by far the best what about others??

In Dogfight with Short range missiles: Su-30MKI decimates MiG-29B in instantaneous turn rate due to thrust vectoring, but MiG-29B has a better sustained turn rate due to its greater Thrust to Weight ratio. Once MKI hits on the thrust vectoring, it losses air speed fast and is a sitting duck for the MiG-29. However what thrust vectoring does is it helps the pilot to turn fast enough for him to come within the maximum off-boresight angle of the missile and achieve lock-on and launch a salvo of R-73 missiles at the MiG-29. So MKI launches first due to thrust vectoring + HMS combo, while MiG-29 only has HMS. So MiG-29 is dead meat if the R-73 connects. But if it doesn't, and the MiG-29 manages to shake off those missiles with maneuvering + flares, the next round will be a very short one. MiG-29 will turn, and launch its own R-73 salvo at the MKI which is struggling to get some airspeed due to the massive induced drag brought on as a result of turning violently using thrust vectoring.
In a guns-only Dogfight, where instantaneous turn rate doesn't matter and the sustained turn rate is the decider, MiG-29 will eat MKI for breakfast, which is what the pilot told the Bharat rrakshak forum members. When the MKI arrived in 2003, there was much enthusiasm to pit these 2 dogfighters against one another, similar to what happened in the article above between Mirage-2000 and MiG-29. During an informal chat, the pilot told them that the MKI could only match the MiG-29's sustained turn rate when it reached Bingo fuel! Bingo fuel is the safe amount of fuel required to fly the aircraft back to the base. What this means is that when fuel weight reduces, the overall weight reduces, and this increases the thrust to weight ratio of the MKI sufficiently to hold its ground against the MiG-29.

Anywayz... In BVR(only radar):
Su-30MKI > *MiG-29B = Mirage-2000 > MiG-29B

In BVR(radar + missiles):
Su-30MKI > MiG-29B > Mirage-2000 (Mirage-2000H's primary BVR is the Matra 530d whose maximum range is only 37km when compared to R-27 which has much more range.)

In WVR(missiles):
Su-30MKI > MiG-29B > Mirage-2000

In WVR(guns-only):
MiG-29B > Su-30MKI > Mirage-2000

The above 3 are clearly superior to all these MiG-21, MiG-23, Jaguar, MiG-27, Hawk, Harrier... bunch. I dunno how this bunch fairs against one another, but I would love to know how they fair against each other. If anyone has any account of how these fighters performed when pitted against each other, which they surely would have by the IAF & IN, then please do share.

*MiG-29 - 10 MiG-29s out of 61 have a new radar.

 

[SpArK]

Some Pics of Mig-29 UPG

KBU3123 / 921 BLUE The Indian Air Force (IAF) upgraded MiG-29UPG fighter with jet-launched version of a subsonic anti-ship missile Kh-35E (AS-20 Kayak). The standard includes the new Zhuk-M2E radar, new avionics, a OLS-UEM IRST sensor with the laser, thermal-imaging and television capabilities, as well as new enhanced RD-33 series 3 turbojet engines. The basic weapons suite of the MiG-29UPG is the same as that of the MiG-29SMT and MiG-29K/KUB.

 

[SpArK]

Mig-29 UB

Mig-35Participants of MAKS-2011 in Moscow

 

[Abingdonboy]

Outdated information IMO as both platforms have been significantly upgraded. And in a WVR fight the Mig-29 does have the edge but in today's BVR envrioment it is a little irrelevant, but not completely of course. The UPG standard the IAF will get for its M2Ks will have significant avionics similarity with Rafale and will be deadly. The MiG-29UPG is getting similar avionics but not quite as advanced. The UPG M2K is also getting a superior weapons suite with the MICA to boot. And both platforms are getting TopSight-I HMDS. Let's just be incredibly happy that two such potent platforms are being made even better and are in service with IAF- owners pride, neighbours envy and all that!!

 

[MiG-21]

Outdated?? They still haven't been upgraded! Atleast a couple of MiG-29s have been upgraded/underway, while the Mirage-2000 still is in preliminary stages! What if a war starts next week, brought on by a mumbai style attack which is currently underway as we are typing this?

Don't count your chickens before they hatch!


*Added additional info to the previous post*

 

[The Great One]

Are you guys kidding me.
This

vs
This

It's the very definition of ugly.

 

[jha]

Just talk to any pilot from Mirage Squad. he will tell you a completely different story. Fact is every pilot swears by his plane.

 

[Koovie]

Are you guys kidding me.
This

vs
This

It's the very definition of ugly.

2end one hasnt even been painted yet, but still UPG look really ugly

 

[killerx]

MIG 29 rocks for sure and more upgrade able

 

[zer_0]

.......The difference lies in word 'multi role'
MiG 29 weren't used to bomb Kargil, but was used on 'sentry' duty, which it did beautifully ( Remember Rajiv Chibber's 'lock on'on F-16 while it was flying on it's air space. F-16 couldn't break it and was let to live another day..as IAF didn't have orders to shoot plabes which didn't cross LOC)
MiG-29 is an excellent Dog Fighter, and M 2000 and excellent 'multi-role'...both as a combination is a 'deadly duo'

can u post some links regarding the above incident..........