Makes one wonder

[Elmo]

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Eyewitnesses: Inside Swat

Eyewitnesses: Inside Swat

The military operation against Taliban militants continues in Pakistan's north-western district of Swat. It is hard to get news from the war zone, other than the official version. The communications network has been destroyed and all journalists have left the region. But the BBC Urdu service's Abdul Hai Kakar has managed to speak to two people in the main town of Mingora. The names have been changed for security reasons.

MEHMOOD

Mehmood had to climb to a hilltop to get a signal for his cell phone. He sounded angry at both the Taliban and the army, but was especially critical of the security forces. Thousands of people are still trapped here due to the fighting between the Taliban and the army.

They are in a state of virtual confinement due to the curfew.

The government spokesmen, sitting in Islamabad or Peshawar, are making false claims about the situation in Swat, saying they have taken control of the situation, or captured that place, or killed so many Taliban.

I swear upon God that it's nothing like that.

Except for some parts of the GT (Grand Trunk) road, some mountain tops and the circuit house in Mingora, all of Swat is under the control of the Taliban.

If the government really has cleared and taken control of the region, it should bring in the media and let the whole world see it for themselves.

I keep moving around, and in several places I have seen army checkpoints with a Taliban checkpoint nearby.

However, neither side engages the other, and even helicopters and jets are not called in to attack the Taliban positions.

A few days ago I tried to speak to a masked Taliban militant in Pashto, and then in Urdu, and he could not understand me.

Then another militant told me that his comrade was an Arab and did not speak Pashto or Urdu.

I then asked him 'how are you' in Arabic, and they all laughed.

This raises doubts over the government's claims that they have blocked all routes into the valley.

How could he get in, when all roads are blocked?

I also don't understand who the operation is aimed against.

A majority of the people who have been killed here are civilians.

This is not an operation, it is a drama. Swat's people cannot be made fools of.

AZAM

The cell phone service does work for a little while late at night.

But the signals are very bad.

The Taliban still control Mingora, but security forces have reached the outskirts of the city.

I spoke to a friend of mine in Makanbagh earlier.

He told me that the security forces are announcing, via loudspeakers, that citizens should leave the area.

But the Taliban are preventing them from doing this.

Foodstuff in the city is rapidly becoming inedible.

I saw a boy selling a litre of petrol for 150 rupees ($1.85; £1.20)

In addition, medical supplies are non-existent.

A chemist told me that he had only two syringes left in his shop, which he was keeping for his own use.
Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Eyewitnesses: Inside Swat

Published: 2009/05/21 14:20:14 GMT

© BBC MMIX
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What should one make from this

 

[jeypore]

Pakistan army struggles in Buner

The Pakistani government has not fully asserted control in the district of Buner, military officials have told a visiting team of BBC journalists.

The army is conducting a big offensive against Taliban militants in Buner.

The BBC's Haroon Rashid travelled to Buner in the north-west and says that fighting is continuing in two villages and the area is effectively a war zone.

Our correspondent says that many areas are deserted and remaining residents are shaken by curfews and power cuts.

Three weeks into the assault, our correspondent says that it is clear the army is not in full control, even if there is little overt sign of any militant presence.


See a map of the region

While some of Buner's residents are starting to return in trickles - mostly farmers fearing that their crops will die - the main town of Daggar is mainly deserted, with vehicles and a fuel station destroyed.

Hospitals have remained open but power is erratic following recent fighting with the Taliban.

Our correspondent says that the army is not manning checkpoints in Buner, preferring instead to position themselves in the hills and fire warning shots at people who try to pass through during the hours of the curfew.

Nearly 1.5 million people have been displaced by this month's fighting in the north-western region, the United Nations refugee agency says. At least half a million more were displaced by fighting last year.

The UN has called for urgent and massive international help.

The military says more than 1,000 militants have been killed in the fresh offensive launched two weeks ago.

In the latest fighting some 80 suspected militants were killed in the Sultanwas area, the military said, adding that the area was now cleared of Taliban.

Most of those displaced have fled the war zones in Swat, Dir and Buner districts of Malakand region since last month.

The exodus was partly encouraged by the military to keep civilian deaths to a minimum in a hand-to-hand fight which it expects in some parts of Swat valley.

On Monday, an army spokesman said most areas in Dir and Buner had been secured while infantry troops were being launched for a final ground offensive in Swat where the army hopes to trap militants and lure them into a street fight.

Bruce Riedel, who chaired a strategic review of America's Afghanistan-Pakistan strategy for President Obama, told the BBC's World Today programme that defeat in the Swat valley for the Pakistan army could have serious repercussions for the country's future stability.


FROM BBC WORLD SERVICE


More from BBC World Service
"There is the immediate threat that the Taliban poses in taking over the Swat valley, but there is a much more insidious threat of the Taliban and Islamic militancy seeping into the very core of the Pakistani state."

He said what is needed is a much more sophisticated approach to the Taliban, using influence and leverage, and continuing support to the Pakistani government.

If that fails, he now believes there is the real possibility that the Taliban could seize control of Pakistan.

"If you had asked me a year ago I would have said 'highly unlikely'," he said.

"It is not imminent, it's not inevitable, it may not be the most likely outcome in Pakistan - but it has become one that is really possible."


BBC NEWS | South Asia | Pakistan army struggles in Buner

 

[ajpirzada]

yup buner operation has still not been fully completed. i guess Interior minister made an announcement in advance. he always does that.
in buner army has cleared sultanwas which was the headquarter of talibans. but another stronghold known as Pir Baba is still left.

 

[Elmo]

What would be your take on BBC's reporting of the events be... it's a whole different paradigm compared to what local newspapers are carrying.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What would be your take on BBC's reporting of the events be... it's a whole different paradigm compared to what local newspapers are carrying.

You need to read the comments with a more critical eye - to take your question, what exactly am I to make of two people interviewed in Mongora saying the Army is not in control of Swat?

First, the two people interviewed can only speak to the situation in the town of Mingora or some other parts they may have traveled through, not all of Swat, since they can't take a careful analytical tour of all of Swat right now.

Second, the Army has not claimed that it is in control of Swat, and has not claimed that it is in control of Mingora. It has stated that it is in the process of clearing out the countryside and surrounding smaller towns and villages before it advances into Mingora.

Third, the Army has stated that the fight for Mingora will be long and bloody, since intelligence out of the city has indicated that a large number of Taliban have dug trenches, set up defences and mined the roads, and have taken civilians hostage as human shields.

So Nadia jee, I see nothing to make of this except that nothing has been offered to counter the reports from the DG ISPR.

People from Swat are understandably frustrated with the violence and being displaced, many of them welcomed the peace deal just because it gave them respite, so blaming the Army for some is the easy way out.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What would be your take on BBC's reporting of the events be... it's a whole different paradigm compared to what local newspapers are carrying.

I don't think the BBC report contradicts the briefings given by the ISPR, so no, its not a whole different paradigm.

I believe the military has said that the fighting has been tough and slow, especially in the more populated/developed areas, and that is to be expected. Just because the military gives you casualty numbers and points out which areas have been 'cleared' does not give us an insight into how difficult the combat is. Nor does 'clearing' a town/village/area guarantee that the Taliban will not send in more fighters to attack the same positions as soldiers advance.

Dawn has an excellent report from soldiers wounded in combat explaining how tough the fighting has been.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | ?I was standing in front of my trench, when I was shot??

The one thing I do wish the ISPR would retract is the point about having sealed the area - it is just not possible for them to do that given the terrain. Beyond that I see no reason to doubt their briefings.

 

[sob]

In a war situation accuracy in reporting is the first casualty. The report to a large extent depends on the access granted to the reporter by either of one side.

Secondly there always be an element of spin from both the sides.

Most important we have to remember that AQ and Taliban have been masters of manipulating the media and unfortunately IMO the civilian exodus due to the military action is playing in their hands.

 

[Elmo]

@AgNoStIc MuSliM

You need to read the comments with a more critical eye - to take your question, what exactly am I to make of two people interviewed in Mongora saying the Army is not in control of Swat?/I don't think the BBC report contradicts the briefings given by the ISPR, so no, its not a whole different paradigm.


Sowie, I wasn't clear in my first post here. What I meant was that BBC's coverage of the Swat operation has been less than flattering. A couple of days back they had come up with an article that stated that 38 per cent of NWFP is under the Taliban. There are many other articles/news clippings that contradict the blatantly contradict the ISPR's claims and then the ISPR issues a statement or two dismissing the same. So one wanted to know what to make of the BBC's stance on the operation's coverage.


First, the two people interviewed can only speak to the situation in the town of Mingora or some other parts they may have traveled through, not all of Swat, since they can't take a careful analytical tour of all of Swat right now./Second, the Army has not claimed that it is in control of Swat, and has not claimed that it is in control of Mingora. It has stated that it is in the process of clearing out the countryside and surrounding smaller towns and villages before it advances into Mingora.
I wasn't really bothered by their statements. More by the BBC's decision to put them up. I do realise that the operation in Mingora has not picked up completely, so it will be premature to take what these men say as the ground reality.

People from Swat are understandably frustrated with the violence and being displaced, many of them welcomed the peace deal just because it gave them respite, so blaming the Army for some is the easy way out.

Their frustration isn't surprising. Nor is blaming the army the easy way out. The ANP and MMA governments in the Frontier let its writ erode in Swat and then Buner, people had no one to look to for help when they wanted to escape the Taliban's persecution. So they had to support the Taliban, by their free will or by force. It's extremely unfair to those people to expect them to support the army operation at this stage — the federal government/state has been amiss for the last couple of years and even when the army took action earlier it wasn't successful (mind you, this is Rah-e-Haq 4. The first phase was launched in November 2007 and lasted two months. Similarly Rah-e-Haq 2 and 3 were also approximately two month long operations that were conducted in 2008 — all three phases were unable to check the Taliban's splurge. Also there was no break in the fighting between ground troops/FC even when a particular Rah-e-Haq phase was not on). People at this stage are disillusioned with the government, the military and the Taliban.
And yes they desire peace and not gunbattle because that's what they have seen for most of the last three years. We can be considerate enough to give them some leeway to express themselves.


The one thing I do wish the ISPR would retract is the point about having sealed the area - it is just not possible for them to do that given the terrain. Beyond that I see no reason to doubt their briefings.

They have also not been able to jam the communication system used by the Taliban. Muslim Khan (TTP spokesman) is still able to contact journalists and politicians and issue threats. They need to retract that statement as well.


Dawn has an excellent report from soldiers wounded in combat explaining how tough the fighting has been.
DAWN.COM | Pakistan | ?I was standing in front of my trench, when I was shot??

Yes, I saw that the Webmaster had posted it earlier in the day (PST). Went through it as well and saw the subsequent posts therein.


So Nadia jee, I see nothing to make of this except that nothing has been offered to counter the reports from the DG ISPR.
The username is Nadja. I was hoping for a discussion not a press release from the ISPR as a counter-argument.

 

[Energon]

It is highly possible for this conflict to rage on for a long time (ranging weeks, months or even years) on account of its very nature. It's best that people prepare themselves for the long haul and not expect instant "victories" which may turn out to be nothing more than another game of whack a mole.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sowie, I wasn't clear in my first post here. What I meant was that BBC's coverage of the Swat operation has been less than flattering. A couple of days back they had come up with an article that stated that 38 per cent of NWFP is under the Taliban. There are many other articles/news clippings that contradict the blatantly contradict the ISPR's claims and then the ISPR issues a statement or two dismissing the same. So one wanted to know what to make of the BBC's stance on the operation's coverage.

I think if you read even the BBC article in detail they do not claim that 38% of the NWFP is under the 'control' of the Taliban. That includes areas where the Taliban have a presence, and quite frankly the Taliban will have a presence in most of FATA even if the GoP goes into every single agency and clears it out ala Bajaur and Swat, and Afghanistan is not stabilized. This insurgency will not end with body counts - it will end when the GoP dismantles other taliban areas (such as Waziristan) AND provides development and governance that weans people away from joining these groups.

I have yet to see a 'clipping' that has offered anything but an opinion contradicting ISPR claims. The most I have heard is speculative extrapolations from isolated opinions from an odd individual here or there - nothing that factually contradicts the ISPR.

I wasn't really bothered by their statements. More by the BBC's decision to put them up. I do realise that the operation in Mingora has not picked up completely, so it will be premature to take what these men say as the ground reality.

Nothing that has been presented so far in 'articles & news clippings' has offered more than extrapolations from anecdotal accounts as I mentioned earlier.

My opinion is that the West is having a hard time coming to terms with the seriousness with which the GoP is approaching Swat - they are still out chasing shadows and trying to figure out how the Pakistani Military is deceiving everyone.

Their frustration isn't surprising. Nor is blaming the army the easy way out. The ANP and MMA governments in the Frontier let its writ erode in Swat and then Buner, people had no one to look to for help when they wanted to escape the Taliban's persecution. So they had to support the Taliban, by their free will or by force. It's extremely unfair to those people to expect them to support the army operation at this stage — the federal government/state has been amiss for the last couple of years

Which is why I said their frustration is understandable.

and even when the army took action earlier it wasn't successful (mind you, this is Rah-e-Haq 4. The first phase was launched in November 2007 and lasted two months. Similarly Rah-e-Haq 2 and 3 were also approximately two month long operations that were conducted in 2008 — all three phases were unable to check the Taliban's splurge. Also there was no break in the fighting between ground troops/FC even when a particular Rah-e-Haq phase was not on). People at this stage are disillusioned with the government, the military and the Taliban.

Your analysis is incorrect since the Swat operation was successful in driving the Taliban out of all major towns and large parts of Swat and into the mountains and jungles - it was when the ANP led government came into power and decided to push the peace deal that squandered every advantage the Military had fought for. That was also the time when the TTP-Mehsud joined up with the TTP-S and provided expertise and resources. They remereged from that peace deal stronger than ever.

Once the Taliban had consolidated their hold on Swat after the ANP led peace deal, it was always going to be an extremely bloody battle to get them out, which is why the ANP was more interested in the NAR.

So I understand that the people are disillusioned with the entities you mentioned, but the military cannot be held responsible for having its hands tied by a GoP and GoNWFP led peace deal, and then be expected to work miracles and restore the pre-peace deal situation without pain.

And yes they desire peace and not gunbattle because that's what they have seen for most of the last three years. We can be considerate enough to give them some leeway to express themselves.

I have not said we should not allow them to express - I have only argued that the statements issued need to be filtered carefully and not used as stick to bash the Military that is trying to do a very tough job in the shortest amount of time with the smallest number of civilian casualties.

They have also not been able to jam the communication system used by the Taliban. Muslim Khan (TTP spokesman) is still able to contact journalists and politicians and issue threats. They need to retract that statement as well.

Agreed - though MK may be communicating through cell phone, as did the two individuals that were interviewed, and the Military may want them to do so in hopes of tracking them.

The username is Nadja. I was hoping for a discussion not a press release from the ISPR as a counter-argument.

Apologize for the misspell - and I did give you a discussion. Just because I validated the ISPR's positions and briefings and pointed out the errors and speculative arguments in the articles posted does not make me their mouth piece.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One more thing - how many locals and GoA officials argued that US air strikes killed over a hundred innocent civilians, an account that the US is strongly contesting?

How many locals have in the past argued that the US has not killed militants, but only civilians or large numbers of civilians in many attacks, also strongly denied by the US?

This is meant more for some of our non-Pakistani audience, since demonizing the PA (regardless of whether it is acting or not acting against the Taliban) is their favorite past time.

 

[S-2]

This latest SWAT peace deal, the Malakand Accord, was inked on February 16, 2009.

Are you suggesting that the army was undercut by the above agreement? They'd already redeployed from SWAT using Mumbai as justification.

Many of your citizens have seen matters in this light and contend it was the ANP that was undercut. The timelines would correlate unless you're to contend that P.A. forces were in SWAT from late November until the agreement in February.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This latest SWAT peace deal, the Malakand Accord, was inked on February 16, 2009.

Are you suggesting that the army was undercut by the above agreement?

No, I was referring to the 'cease fire/peace deal' immediately after the ANP led government came to power over a year ago. That was when all of the gains made against the Swat taliban were squandered and they reemerged stronger through their association with Mehsud and others.

By the time the latest peace deal came about with Sufi Mohammed, the situation had reached a point where the Military could not retake Swat without significant civilian losses and destruction.

That is why the Military and the GoNWFP were in favor of the deal with Sufi, since you can probably imagine the outrage in Pakistan had all of the current chaos occurred prior to the atrocities committed by the Taliban coming to light, especially the video of the girl being whipped.

 

[Elmo]

My mistake. Forgot to put the “not”. I was typing: “that 38 per cent of NWFP is not under the Taliban.” That’s what the first line of the article stated: “Research by the BBC Urdu's service into the growing strength of Taliban militants in north western Pakistan shows that only 38% of the area remains under full government control.” I had used the term “under” broadly to imply the Taliban’s presence in the region… never used “control”.

I have yet to see a 'clipping' that has offered anything but an opinion contradicting ISPR claims. The most I have heard is speculative extrapolations from isolated opinions from an odd individual here or there - nothing that factually contradicts the ISPR.
The BBC report is hardly an opinion. It’s reporting from the districts by its network of correspondents, who know what is going on in their territories more than me and you, who are sitting far away in Karachi and foreign shores and relying solely on ISPR statements to keep up to date with what is happening. Even though one would disagree with the BBC’s coverage at times, one can’t deny the responsible journalism it practices.

Nothing that has been presented so far in 'articles & news clippings' has offered more than extrapolations from anecdotal accounts as I mentioned earlier. My opinion is that the West is having a hard time coming to terms with the seriousness with which the GoP is approaching Swat - they are still out chasing shadows and trying to figure out how the Pakistani Military is deceiving everyone.
They in the West will of course chase the government of Pakistan and the military especially after the 1.5-billion-dollar annual aid which the Kerry-Lugar Bill proposes. It’s a lot of money that we are talking about here. For Pakistan to continue receiving, it has to come to fulfil five criteria, which are:
1. The level of political consensus and unity of purpose to confront the political and security challenges facing the region; [My addition: the public supporting the army action, there has been little in the local press to say otherwise [besides PTI and JI’s statement but with the boycott of polls they are no longer political frontrunners]
2. The level of government corruption and actions taken to eliminate it;
3. The performance of security forces with respect to counterinsurgency operations; [My add: Swat operation]
4. The performance of intelligence agencies in cooperating fully with the U.S. and not undermining the security of our troops and our objectives in the region; and
5. The ability of the government to control the territory within their borders. [My add:NWFP at large]

Those opposed to the aid pledged under the bill will no doubt see the current military operation as just another attempt to ensure that the money keeps flowing.


Which is why I said their frustration is understandable.
The response was to your second statement: “for some blaming the army is an easy way out”. Found that a wee bit harsh.

Your analysis is incorrect since the Swat operation was successful in driving the Taliban out of all major towns and large parts of Swat and into the mountains and jungles
That was not my analysis. Here are some excerpts and links to articles which state that the army operation had been unsuccessful in their aims from time to time. As for ANP govt. being the usurper, this isn’t the first time that it has upended the army’s effort. Secondly not all three phases were successful in clearing the area of the Taliban. Rah-e-Haq I unarguably was but not II. ISPR's contention that Phase III was successful is taken with a pinch of salt [even though this report states that it was, there are others that contradict the claim].


http://www.observerindia.com/cms/ex...s/analysis/attachments/Swat_1233894953953.pdf
State Response
Fazlullah’s rise was facilitated in more ways than one by the absence of any coherent civil -military response to the impending crisis. The civilian government, a coalition of rival political parties —
Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) and Pakistan Muslim League -N (PMLN), remained embroiled in a tug of war for power in the early part of 2008 and insisted on reviewing the earlier decision of their
common enemy, President Pervez Musharraf, to launch a military offensive against Fazlullah in November 2007—Operation Rah-e-Haq I. The political parties, including ANP which came to
power in NWFP, decided to open talks with the Taliban and tribal leaders for possible peace deals. The success of the November military operation—Fazlullah had to escape from Swat—was quickly
dwindled away in political one-upmanship............However, in June 2008, when the Government reversed i ts decision to amend the Shari Nizam-e-Adl Act, 1999 in accordance with the wishes of the TNSM/ Pakistan Taliban, Fazlullah violated the ceasefire and renewed his attacks on schools, ANP leaders and security forces. The Army remained hesitant to launch a counter-offensive till, in July 2008, Fazlullah’s men abducted 38 Frontier Corps soldiers and killed three ISI personnel. The Army launched Operation Rah-e-Haq II in July 2008 and this time the offensive relied on air power and artillery without much success though. While Fazlullah and his men managed to keep away from the bombardment, people were forced to migrate in large numbers. As the Taliban elements in Bajaur (led by Mullah Faqir Ahmed, another Sufi Mohammad protégé) raised the pitch of violence, the Army shifted its focus away from Swat to concentrate on the area contiguous to Durand Line (Operation Sherdill). This gave Fazlullah’s group a breather from the offensive and time to regroup. ......... But Fazlullah, sensing victory, refused to go along and raised the level of intimidation and violence in the district. The Army launched Operation Rah -e-Haq III in January 2009 to secure the main supply lines and consolidate the district capital Mingora. Four Army Brigades were pressed into operation along with FC troops—15,000 troops in all-- supported by air and artillery elements. The last week of January saw intensive aerial and artillery bombing of the region. The security forces have regained Mingora and are poised to push the Taliban out of the district. The fresh military offensive has affected the population more severely.


The Daily Mail - Daily News from Pakistan - Newspaper from Pakistan

The situation in Swat has evolved into a full blown insurgency, with the Pakistani Army engaging the militants in several areas which had been unstable since the onset of the insurgency in November 2007. The government regained control of several valleys and pushed the militants towards the mountainous areas of Kabal and Piochar, making ample use of heavy artillery and attack helicopters.
The Pakistan military started its campaign during the caretaker government in November 2007. Pakistan Army is battling against militant outfits in the restive Khyber agency, Mohmand, Hangu, Swat, Dara Adem Khei, Bajaur and South and North Waziristan, The army operation code-named as 'Operation Rah-e-Haq', involved hundred of troops and mechanised units that had moved into the area since November 2007. Using heavy artillery, and supported by helicopter gunship, the troops went for the kill after weeks of uncertainty during which militants loyal to Maulana Fazlullah had challenged the writ of the Government. During the period, a series of suicide attacks and bombings killed a large number of security personnel, creating an impression as if militants from tribal areas were spreading their tentacles in the settled region. Maulana Fazlullah himself narrowly escaped arrest on quite a few occasions, The "Rah-e-Haq Operation" in Sirsenal was launched as the last option but now the action had ended in success in which a total of 60 personnel of the Pakistan Army embraced martyrdom. .....

We can only wait for Rah-e-Rast to end and see how the events unfolded.

- it was when the ANP led government came into power and decided to push the peace deal that squandered every advantage the Military had fought for. That was also the time when the TTP-Mehsud joined up with the TTP-S and provided expertise and resources. They remereged from that peace deal stronger than ever.
Agreed, the nizam-e-adl signing was the stupidest thing any government could have done and did far more damage than can be corrected in the years to come. One didn’t expect the ANP to align itself with the extremists.


I have not said we should not allow them to express - I have only argued that the statements issued need to be filtered carefully and not used as stick to bash the Military that is trying to do a very tough job in the shortest amount of time with the smallest number of civilian casualties.
Fair enough. But no one is currently bashing the military on this thread. There is no need here.


Apologize for the misspell - and I did give you a discussion. Just because I validated the ISPR's positions and briefings and pointed out the errors and speculative arguments in the articles posted does not make me their mouth piece.
Hey, come on I never said/implied you were their “mouthpiece”. My compliments for giving a worthy debate Agnostic Muslim!

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

Your analysis is incorrect since the Swat operation was successful in driving the Taliban out of all major towns and large parts of Swat and into the mountains and jungles - it was when the ANP led government came into power and decided to push the peace deal that squandered every advantage the Military had fought for.

Once the Taliban had consolidated their hold on Swat after the ANP led peace deal, it was always going to be an extremely bloody battle to get them out, which is why the ANP was more interested in the NAR.

the only point i want to raise is that although army was successful at that time the people had a lot of sympathy for the taliban at that time it was all over the news and people were openly praising them and then when the horrors began and the fighting escalated alot there was a lot of loss of life, people were happy with ANP intervening to bring some sort of peace. As far as the sharia law i think it was a ploy by the government as they knew these taliban were only in for more and more power and laying down arms was not on the table, army action was giong to be taken anyway but the taliban made a very bad move by moving into buner it gave the army the suppourt the would need and justified what they were doing