Learning by Doing Pakistan's Experience with Counterinsurgency: Shuja Nawaz

[Joe Shearer]

@meghdut

I am gathering material on Nagaland, and smaller campaigns against the Mizos, the Bodos, and the damned to hell Karbi Anglong; should I include anybody else in the north-east? The Kukis never seemed to have their heart in armed action. Should I talk about ULFA? Will you vet the material? It will be voluminous and will need serious condensation to make sense to a totally unfamiliar audience.

Apart from this, there is the Naxalite rising, and its splitting and survival of several split factions, and the police reactions to them, also the civilian reactions to them including the reactions of the Sangh Parivar and its elected governments.

The major difficulty is to present these to an audience completely unfamiliar with the issues, the struggle for management of land and the fluctuating demographics of the north-east, the enormous complexities of the campaigns in the forests.

Your thoughts?

 

[meghdut]

@meghdut

I am gathering material on Nagaland, and smaller campaigns against the Mizos, the Bodos, and the damned to hell Karbi Anglong; should I include anybody else in the north-east? The Kukis never seemed to have their heart in armed action. Should I talk about ULFA? Will you vet the material? It will be voluminous and will need serious condensation to make sense to a totally unfamiliar audience.

Apart from this, there is the Naxalite rising, and its splitting and survival of several split factions, and the police reactions to them, also the civilian reactions to them including the reactions of the Sangh Parivar and its elected governments.

The major difficulty is to present these to an audience completely unfamiliar with the issues, the struggle for management of land and the fluctuating demographics of the north-east, the enormous complexities of the campaigns in the forests.

Your thoughts?

I may be able to help, at least regarding ULFA and Bodo militancy. The rest I need to read up though. I got some material of course. So okay I’m in. Moreover some background to the e unique situations in NE which gave rise to militancy needs to be briefly summarised . And you have to include ULFA, they were a major part of it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I may be able to help, at least regarding ULFA and Bodo militancy. The rest I need to read up though. I got some material of course. So okay I’m in. Moreover some background to the e unique situations in NE which gave rise to militancy needs to be briefly summarised . And you have to include ULFA, they were a major part of it.

The background is equally important; I agree. But at this moment, I am concentrating on gleaning data about military or armed operations.

Your help will be invaluable.

 

[meghdut]

The background is equally important; I agree. But at this moment, I am concentrating on gleaning data about military or armed operations.

Your help will be invaluable.

Brushing up my knowledge now. Will surely help.

 

[meghdut]

@Joe Shearer You may include UNLA and PLA of Manipur.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer You ma. y include UNLA and PLA of Manipur.

I mentioned the Kukis, and thereby got the cart before the horse. The original rebellion was Meitei; the Kukis got involved because the Nagalim people barged in and started creating trouble. That actually led to a lot of tiny little movements formed around the different tribes; we now have an alphabet soup, all of whom survive on highway extortion.

 

[meghdut]

I mentioned the Kukis, and thereby got the cart before the horse. The original rebellion was Meitei; the Kukis got involved because the Nagalim people barged in and started creating trouble. That actually led to a lot of tiny little movements formed around the different tribes; we now have an alphabet soup, all of whom survive on highway extortion.

As I’m reading it again I’m increasingly drawn to the conclusion that the whole Insurgency of the NE was a real bloody mess. One feeding on the other and growing, one fades out and another takes it’s place. Damn!

all of whom survive on highway extortion.

Laldenga and MNF are a great example. And also ULFA. In fact every one of the so called freedom fighters of NE turned out to be protection rackets.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Laldenga and MNF are a great example. And also ULFA. In fact every one of the so called freedom fighters of NE turned out to be protection rackets.

@Nilgiri

That is what our friends, the East Asian fanboys, don't know - and they are not bothered to know. It's like another hero's invasion of India along the sea-coast using hovercraft, or his coup de main in Ladakh using paratroopers. Anything goes.

As I’m reading it again I’m increasingly drawn to the conclusion that the whole Insurgency of the NE was a real bloody mess. One feeding on the other and growing, one fades out and another takes it’s place. Damn!

IMHO, one major reason was people treating Assam and the Assamese as power-of-attorney holders for the Indian state, required to do the central government's duties for no extra charge, over a period and an area that was completely not manageable at the state level.

 

[Nilgiri]

IMHO, one major reason was people treating Assam and the Assamese as power-of-attorney holders for the Indian state, required to do the central government's duties for no extra charge, over a period and an area that was completely not manageable at the state level.

Spot on. Basic implementation of law and order of the state is so crucial to everything else....in fact I would say it is THE crucial thing above all else.....because it in very basic way promotes and helps the good people and businesses of an area while showing them that the bad apples and criminals get clamped down upon.

If the orders of state cannot be enforced, well people (with biggest sticks in area) take matters into their own hands....it is never as good as proper govt but it happens regardless and inevitably.

A while back for example I was looking into more detail than before of how the US incorporated the ex-confederate states back into the union over a period of almost a decade (and longer) after the war itself ended.

There were even reversals that are not that well known about, everyone seems to assume the war just ended and everyone got on the path of reconstruction and redemption etc...

For example Georgia was admitted but quickly kicked back out for a while (to bring martial law and suspension of constitution till appropriate level of basic peace at least for the major organs of the federal govt was brought about so the constitution was implementable). It was finally admitted for good once this was deemed achieved. All this was driven by the grievous law and order situation. Many other ex-CSA states re-admittance was delayed for many years for same reason.

Often certain mobs targeted such people as judges and sheriffs (of all level of authority and their families too) dispensing the significant laws passed in the US during the civil war itself that were not implementable in the CSA during the war for obvious reasons.

The situation continues in large ways in much of US inner cities and ghettos....there are unpopular answers to be had to solve the issue...but they are not politically apt.

India situation with the N.E is different in many ways of course...but some similarities can be found. The problems are exacerbated somewhat by the largely non-contiguous nature of the basic geography setup with rest of India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Spot on. Basic implementation of law and order of the state is so crucial to everything else....in fact I would say it is THE crucial thing above all else.....because it in very basic way promotes and helps the good people and businesses of an area while showing them that the bad apples and criminals get clamped down upon.

If the orders of state cannot be enforced, well people (with biggest sticks in area) take matters into their own hands....it is never as good as proper govt but it happens regardless and inevitably.

A while back for example I was looking into more detail than before of how the US incorporated the ex-confederate states back into the union over a period of almost a decade (and longer) after the war itself ended.

There were even reversals that are not that well known about, everyone seems to assume the war just ended and everyone got on the path of reconstruction and redemption etc...

For example Georgia was admitted but quickly kicked back out for a while (to bring martial law and suspension of constitution till appropriate level of basic peace at least for the major organs of the federal govt was brought about so the constitution was implementable). It was finally admitted for good once this was deemed achieved. All this was driven by the grievous law and order situation. Many other ex-CSA states re-admittance was delayed for many years for same reason.

Often certain mobs targeted such people as judges and sheriffs (of all level of authority and their families too) dispensing the significant laws passed in the US during the civil war itself that were not implementable in the CSA during the war for obvious reasons.

The situation continues in large ways in much of US inner cities and ghettos....there are unpopular answers to be had to solve the issue...but they are not politically apt.

India situation with the N.E is different in many ways of course...but some similarities can be found. The problems are exacerbated somewhat by the largely non-contiguous nature of the basic geography setup with rest of India.

I'm surprised - very pleasantly surprised - that you know about what was known from the opposite point of view as the 'carpetbagger' era in the American South. That was a fascinating period, and one in which law and order gained a notional control, but the social reins very, very quickly went back into the hands of white supremacists.

Today, this is Republican country; there was a time, when, remembering which party Abe Lincoln belonged to, most Southrons were Democrats. I've seen the change in my own life time, from the days of the infamous Huey Long to today's Ron deSantis (yes, I know he capitalises it differently).

Have you seen the movie "In the Heat of the Night"? I wouldn't point you at something obvious like "To Kill a Mockingbird" after our duel over the best actors in western cinema.

 

[Nilgiri]

"In the Heat of the Night"?

They call me MR TIBBS.

My favourite Sidney Poitier movie overall.

 

[Nilgiri]

I'm surprised - very pleasantly surprised - that you know about what was known from the opposite point of view as the 'carpetbagger' era in the American South.

I forgot to add joe, looking back now at how I approached many topics for study.

There was definite injection points of influence early on (as a kid)....and with time I basically expanded my understanding and context outwards after I read about the subject "window" itself in strong enough intensity.

This one it definitely went something like:

1) Gone with the Wind (big favourite read and movie watch of my mom particularly, a movie we watched a number of times)...it was definitely the injection point of influence for me looking back. I still bring up the story and movie from time to time and give her bits of historical addendum to it....she most enjoys it.

2) Civil war more generally (which I know most intensely about, this subject really consumed me for a few years) and larger body of movies, culture, books etc tied to it. After the 20th century world wars (which had similar injection points in youth), I would know most about this one in my estimation.

3) Broader stuff before and after because you cannot really understand 2) without it.

4) Broader understanding of lingering currents....both direct and transmuted somewhat

I try to always tell people who have passion for something in history (or a lot or all of it in general) to do likewise....because eventually you will find some very noticeable common threads to current timeframe and it does add a certain personal satisfaction and higher understanding.

 

[HalfMoon]

It is time to balkanize India

1) Muslim Country of Kashmir & Kargil
2) Buddhist Countries of Ladakh, Sikkim & Arunachal
3) Parsi countries of Mumbai & Pune
4) Christian Country of Goa
5) Muslim Country of Deccan and Malabar
6) Christian Countries of Andhra & Tamilnadu
7) Muslim Countries of Bengal and Assam
8) Sikh Country of Punjab
9) Jain Country of Kutch and Marwar
10) Dalit Country of Chatisgarh, Odissa and Jharkhand
11) Christian Country of Meghalaya, Mizoram & Nagaland