Leaked NATO report claims to expose direct links between ISI, Taliban

[VCheng]

......................
from whose perspective?

Is that even a question? Whose overwhelming perspective is likely to prevail? That is the one that matters, even for Pakistan itself.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

ahan, im not even sure i understand what you're trying to imply now - Cheng.

at any rate, Irfan Sahib did say something that's true. There is a path to ''redemption''

on both sides......always remember that trust and partnership are a 2-way thing. Not a 1-way thing, and most certainly not something that is developed over night.



I trust that in the end, Pakistan will be on the right side of history. That's what matters.

 

[VCheng]

ahan, im not even sure i understand what you're trying to imply now - Cheng.

at any rate, Irfan Sahib did say something that's true. There is a path to ''redemption''

on both sides......always remember that trust and partnership are a 2-way thing. Not a 1-way thing, and most certainly not something that is developed over night.



I trust that in the end, Pakistan will be on the right side of history. That's what matters.

That is exactly what I fear that my point is not getting across. You are still thinking in terms of right and wrong and trust and mistrust and redemption for "sins". International geopolitics has never worked like that and never will!

Please remember that history is merely the winner's version of events. A famous Bushism is perhaps appropriate here: "Who cares about how history sees us? We'll all be dead!".

 

[gambit]

it helps to at least be informed before making baseless half-truths like that...how many suspects were arrested and handed over to Americans after making positive ID on them.

The operative words are: ...on Pakistani soil...

We do not care if Pakistan turn over anyone or not. Neutral parties are under no obligations to turn anyone, ID-ed or not, dead or alive, arrested or free, clothed or nude, fed or starved, wealthy or poor, over to anyone. All Pakistan have to do is exercise credible sovereign control to AT LEAST make it difficult for Taliban and al-Qaeda to cross over into Pakistan and find safe refuge, and to expel any Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters BACK INTO Afghanistan.

you want to talk about trying to control taleban? They are an Afghan phenomenon and currently US/NATO are in Afghanistan. That's your own problem buddy, not ours. You want to talk about grievences now? Under your watchful eye, the indians were setting up ''consulates'' close to our borders. To us that posed a threat, but your side silently nodded and did not even a ''half hearted effort'' to pressure Afghan authorities to shut them down. The Karzai America supported and still supports (without the Americans he's nothing) had a brother who was openly involved in the narcotics industry in Afghanistan. Does this sound healthy to you?

Fine. Then let US and Karzai deal with them IN AFGHANISTAN. Karzai is our problem. Pakistani soil is Pakistani's problem. Why is that so difficult to understand?

to date, US has failed to provide any evidence that OBL was receiving any state protection....even the hawkish Leon Panetta acknoweldged this reality. Without evidence, all you have is your beak.

Please...Silence is quite enough protection. Ever heard of 'consent by/through silence' ?

we are about as competent at enforcing our long and de-marcated border with Afghanistan as you are enforcing your border with Mexico. You have the luxury of liberal, never-ending funding (well as of late, not really). We do not.

Bad analogy. Mexican immigrants and drug dealers are not seeking to overthrow the US, nor are they using US as a base to wage a war against anyone else.

for ''speculations sake'' what do you think would happen in Afghanistan if NATO heeded to Pakistan's advice and didnt attack Afghanistan.....instead they cooperated with the Afghan government and put incredible amount of pressure on them until they gave up the foreign fighters. I believe Mullah Omar had offered to summons OBL to a Shariah-type court and invited the Americans to observe it. Mullah Omar and OBL had a major falling out anyways, so it wasnt like he would be sitting by his feet defending the Yemeni-born Saudi. The Americans insisted on carpet bombing instead, and you are where you are today in Afghanistan because of your own missteps.

We are under no obligations to concede to Omar's offer. After years of negotiations that ended with 9/11, no country would entertain anything less than what we wanted. This is a feeble argument in trying to deflect from Pakistan's responsibility as a sovereign state in controlling sovereign soil.

you give Pakistan way too much credit for your failures in Afghanistan.

Credit? No. Appropriate blame? Yes.

 

[Tridibans]

Afghans react to US claims that Taliban supported by Pakistan - video | World news | guardian.co.uk

Residents of Kabul give their reaction to claims in a leaked US military report that the Taliban is backed by Pakistan. It warns that the Taliban are confident of a return to power in Afghanistan as soon as Nato-led forces withdraw from the country. The report was based on interrogations of 4,000 detainees

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Gambit
Thanks for your posts. It seems that we have diverted from the topic and have started blaming each other for the failure to control the conflict in Afghanistan.

Regarding your posts, I understand where you are coming from because I see this quiet often that some Americans find it very patriotic to only find the faults and put blame on the other side.
Having said that, I don’t dismiss your points about our failure to control our borders and use of our soil against the occupation forces in Afghanistan, for every single blame I can quote in kind regarding the writ of the Afghan Government and less than impressive record of occupation forces in Afghanistan but that will only lock us in the circular arguments.

The failure to prevent cross border infiltration on either side and use of Pakistan and Afghanistan’s soil is a fact. While you point at haqqanis using Waziristan, we point our fingers at TTP’s leadership who makes open air videos in Afghanistan taunting our people and our army. We also point out the use of Kandhar by BLA and their international supporters and the argument goes on.
But this thread is based on a leak that the Pakistan army/ ISI is actually supporting the Taliban and the impression is that we are madly in love with them. That’s something which we completely dismiss.

if we have even a fraction of control or say over the working of Afghan Taliban as these all fatherless reports claim then the first thing we would have done was self-preservation and safety, by getting the Taliban to eliminate TTP and BLA or deny them the use of Afghan soil.

People who leak these news should make up their mind, are they really serious with the peaceful settlement? Are they wasting time with Taliban meetings in Qatar and Saudi Arabia? The only logical explanation to me is that some American policy makers want to do it alone excluding Pakistan although even that suggestion is absurd and unworkable. And then again there are presidential elections too so that has to be put into context too.

 

[gambit]

Regarding your posts, I understand where you are coming from because I see this quiet often that some Americans find it very patriotic to only find the faults and put blame on the other side.

Do not pull this cheap shot on me. I can say the same thing for just about every Pakistanis on this forum.

Having said that, I don’t dismiss your points about our failure to control our borders and use of our soil against the occupation forces in Afghanistan, for every single blame I can quote in kind regarding the writ of the Afghan Government and less than impressive record of occupation forces in Afghanistan but that will only lock us in the circular arguments.

It is circular only because you already have the convenience of the failure and/or refusal of Pakistan to control your borders to make it easy for Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters to find refuge and respite in Pakistan, and THAT compounds the difficulties we already have in Afghanistan. The failures we have in Afghanistan -- Pakistan had a hand in facilitating.

But this thread is based on a leak that the Pakistan army/ ISI is actually supporting the Taliban and the impression is that we are madly in love with them. That’s something which we completely dismiss.

if we have even a fraction of control or say over the working of Afghan Taliban as these all fatherless reports claim then the first thing we would have done was self-preservation and safety, by getting the Taliban to eliminate TTP and BLA or deny them the use of Afghan soil.

People who leak these news should make up their mind, are they really serious with the peaceful settlement? Are they wasting time with Taliban meetings in Qatar and Saudi Arabia? The only logical explanation to me is that some American policy makers want to do it alone excluding Pakistan although even that suggestion is absurd and unworkable. And then again there are presidential elections too so that has to be put into context too.

You may not like the contents of the (leaked) report but it is one of many and it is one that is refined and compiled based upon many observations, some valid, some not, of those who have had dealings with the ISI at different levels. Pakistan does not need to control the Taliban, only mutual interests will provide sufficient restraints and guidance as to who can do the most damage to the US presence in Afghanistan and how.

 

[Killswitch]

George W. Bush decided to trust Musharraf, and invaded Afghanistan. The Pakistanis never had any intention of helping America set up a democracy in Afghanistan (the Pakistanis themselves are a society dominated by their army).

The Americans are learning what the Indians have been telling them for quite some time now, that Pakistan uses Islamic terrorism as a foreign policy tool.

Unless the Americans are willing to break the back of the Pakistani army (which they are not) the terrorism will not stop.

There is no silver bullet for the situation. Sadly the Afghans suffer the most for this foolishness.