Leaders are not made, they are born as one !!

[fisher1]

...

Your interpretations of Islamic history and leaders has nothing to do with the view held by Muslims. And you have the audacity to justify the coming of lustful military generals for power with distorted version of Islamic history, Nauzbillah. Someone mentioned Khalid bin Waleed (RA) - Sayf Allah - the sword of Allah in front of whom Musharaff and other generals look like cowards yet Khalid bin Waleed(RA) never took control of power instead obeyed the Caliph (RA).

No matter how much you or the military tries, the religion of Islam is clear and generals will never find any legitimacy. No matter how great they are at fighting, they will always have to obey the leader.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1257895050182189061

It's ironic of you to talk about Qom e Lut using abuse cases in Pakistan while you're living in a country where not only is homosexual marriages allowed but you can't criticise faggots and homosexuality. And you have praises for them too.

 

[Hamza913]

Only if the state administration can understand!
sometimes I think we locals are much more sensible and could've taken very different decisions (which could've actually benefitted Pakistan) from what our administration has taken.

The administration is intelligent, it's just that they do what's best for themselves, not the nation.

 

[Psychic]

I am as anti-musharraf as you can get out there but Nawaz Sharif of 1999 was a POS in his behavior and policies, his love for india in 1999 was making most people in Pakistan uncomfortable so I can understand why the army as a whole sided with another POS like Musharraf to get rid of him.

Nawaz became India lover after that affair.

Nawaz had supported the army through and through during the Kargil war. I do not need to prove myself as it is well documented. However, a smear campaign was launched against him by the khalai makhlooq after the fiasco and he was blamed for "forcing" the army to return from the "victorious" battlefield. The whole print media was involved in this smear campaign spearheaded by his political enemies like the Jamaat e Islami.

And that is from me who does not support ANY politician; but I do not support upstarts like Musharraf either who do more damage than good.

 

[Crusher]

Nawaz became India lover after that affair.

Nawaz had supported the army through and through during the Kargil war. I do not need to prove myself as it is well documented. However, a smear campaign was launched against him by the khalai makhlooq after the fiasco and he was blamed for "forcing" the army to return from the "victorious" battlefield. The whole print media was involved in this smear campaign spearheaded by his political enemies like the Jamaat e Islami.

And that is from me who does not support ANY politician; but I do not support upstarts like Musharraf either who do more damage than good.

He was india love even before that. Once he won the election with a huge majority in 1997, he became a POS arrogant prick, first he abolished the Jumma as national weekly holiday since that day I started hating the arrogance of that money lover POS because the argument that he gave to make Sunday instead of Jumma was such a pathetic argument that world markets are closed on open whereas we are closed but after coming into Germany I have realized that Friday is the least productive day of the week in the western world and quite often it is not even full working day for most of the businesses. And above these people have two weekly holidays Saturday and Sunday when there is no official, bank and market business taking place. I was very happy when he was thrown out by the military even though I was supporter of Muslim league (not because of Nawaz sharif) because it was a relatively moderate conservative political party in a sensitive society like Pakistan. What made me angry about Musharraf afterwards was that first I thought the military will hold a general election once again within a year or so and the game will start once again but Musharraf had other plans. And then he showed his true colors by damaging the Pakistan's full support for Kashmir's independence and was begging and kissing indian a55 to get a handshake with indian prime ministers like wajpai and manmohan singh. His role with regards to US after 9/11 was also one of the worst chapters in the history of Pakistan, he made Pakistan part of a war that was never Pakistan's war, it was a war between US and its inferred enemies hiding in Afghanistan. But that d0g faced Musharraf forcibly involved Pakistan into this American war to get legitimization from the US for his otherwise illegitimate regime for the US before 9/11. At that time I even felt that Musharraf had a "hand" behind 9/11 because he was the biggest beneficiary of 9/11 aftermath.

 

[Psychic]

He was india love even before that. Once he won the election with a huge majority in 1997, he became a POS arrogant prick, first he abolished the Jumma as national weekly holiday since that day I started hating the arrogance of that money lover POS because the argument that he gave to make Sunday instead of Jumma was such a pathetic argument that world markets are closed on open whereas we are closed but after coming into Germany I have realized that Friday is the least productive day of the week in the western world and quite often it is not even full working day for most of the businesses. And above these people have two weekly holidays Saturday and Sunday when there is no official, bank and market business taking place. I was very happy when he was thrown out by the military even though I was supporter of Muslim league (not because of Nawaz sharif) because it was a relatively conservative political party in a sensitive society like Pakistan. What made me angry about Musharraf afterwards was that first I thought the military will hold a general election once again within a year or so and the game will start once again but Musharraf had other plans. And then he showed his true colors by damaging the Pakistan's full support for Kashmir's independence and was begging and kissing indian a55 to get a handshake with indian prime ministers like wajpai and manmohan singh. His role with regards to US after 9/11 was also one of the worst chapters in the history of Pakistan, he made Pakistan part of a war that was never Pakistan's war, it was a war between US and its inferred enemies hiding in Afghanistan. But that d0g faced Musharraf forcibly involved Pakistan into this American war to get legitimization from the US for his otherwise illegitimate regime for the US before 9/11. At that time I even felt that Musharraf had a "hand" behind 9/11 because he was the biggest beneficiary of 9/11 aftermath.

I said the same thing that no matter how bad Nawaz was, Musharraf did more harm than good. Musharraf ended up sucking India's and America's dick more than Nawaz or anyone else.

And what I wrote about Kargil is a fact, not my opinion. You can have your opinion which may be subjective but facts are something which are objective. Fact is that he had supported the military through and through during the Kargil war (him being India-lover doesn't change this fact) and a smear campaign against him was launched after that failed war.

 

[Crusher]

I said the same thing that no matter how bad Nawaz was, Musharraf did more harm than good. Musharraf ended up sucking India's and America's dick more than Nawaz or anyone else.

And what I wrote about Kargil is a fact, not my opinion. You can have your opinion which may be subjective but facts are something which are objective. Fact is that he had supported the military through and through during the Kargil war (him being India-lover doesn't change this fact) and a smear campaign against him was launched after that failed war.

I have no opinion on Kargil, it is a non-issue for me and vast majority of Pakistan. It was a secret sh1t and I only used to hear about it on Doordarshan news channel or indian radio channels in 1998 or 1999, it was never on the news on PTV so for us general public it didn't even happen. I still stand by my position on Nawaz Sharif, without military support Nawaz sharif was a big zero in politics, he was made by them and propagated also by them in the society, print and national media by them. My own family was also supporter of PPP till the year 1990 like most of the people in Punjab at that time then our uncle made all of us anti-PPP and at that time people vote "cycle" which was election symbol of Muslim league. I was never a fan of Nawaz Sharif in 90s, I was just anti-PPP (actually anti-Benazeer) and at that time the product brought for sale in market against PPP by the Establishment was Nawaz Sharif so people voted him. I remember my high school teacher in 1994 used to say us "Ay uto uto larday nay, vicho ralay nay" so that was public image of these sh1tty political parties even in those days.

 

[ali_raza]

A basic problem with Kargil conflict is that most of us are unaware of the military and political objectives which were set as parameters to declare it successful. Unless those are known, our analysis of the tactical level performance or higher level leadership will be in vain.

We all enjoy the benefit of hindsight while discussing past operations, that may be kept in mind. This makes our task much easier while discussing anything. Its always easier to pass a judgement this way.



I, based on my limited experience, always fail to understand the importance of FH-77 Bofors once Kargil is being discussed. It is nothing special, a normal artillery piece. Its extended range was of no use since the conflict dictated that artillery was already being fired over open sights, or direct fire. Rest it fired normal artillery shells which had the same effect as that of a normal artillery gun of its calibre. For Tiger Hill, Indians conducted a 200-gun pre-attack bombardment, followed by a Brigade level attack....even then what odds 8 Sikh, 18 Grenadiers and 2 Naga faced against a small body of NLI troops is pretty evident.

Do please keep in view the exact location of Zoji La pass vis a vis LOC, along with the indian deployments in the area. Its not that easy to reach Zoji La undetected.



@diligence



As far as planning is concerned, the objectives, their retainability and sustainability were all within limits if we had gone as per the ORIGINAL plan. If we would have stuck to the original plan, Indian response would not have been that big, and the scope of operation from both sides would have been within our acceptable limits.

You are right, disowning own troops is always detrimental to morale.

PAF support was originally not required as per the original plan.

Again, supply should not have been a problem if we would have followed the original plan.

You are also right that in the end, this operation did more damage to us than of any use.

You are also right that pre-hostilities diplomatic moves were missing which could have complemented our efforts.

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Cmon gentlemen, instead of discussing Kargil War in this thread (we can do it in its own thread) lets discuss our leaders, for this is what this thread is all about.

Leaders are not found in higher echelons, Pakistan Army has exemplary examples of leaders at all levels till General Officers. Just some examples (some, not all)

Gen Iftikhar
Gen Tajammal
Gen Bokhari (as Brigadier in FCNA)
Brigadier Ameer Hamza (105 Brigade)
Lt Col Raja Akram, FF
Lt Col Sultan, 31 Baluch
Brigadier Hayat, 107 Brigade, 1971
Gen A O Mitha
Gen Abrar, GOC 6 Armored Division
Gen Akhtar Malik
Brig Nisar, 25 Cavalry, Chengez Force
Brig Amjad Chaudhary
Brif A R Shami
our NH recipients
Capt Iqbal, SSG
Maj, later Brigadier Abdul Rehman, SSG
Brig T M


Above names may not be even 1% of our heroes, and then these are only from Army, we have many heroes from PAF and PN as well.....

Then, again, thousands of examples from the last two decades in our fight against terrorists.

i would suggest u read the book of colonel ishafq
he was incharge of logistics in kargil war
cant recall the name of the book but it was famous back then.
ge wrote it how we should have taken zojila pass with much ease

 

[PanzerKiel]

i would suggest u read the book of colonel ishafq
he was incharge of logistics in kargil war
cant recall the name of the book but it was famous back then.
ge wrote it how we should have taken zojila pass with much ease

If you are referring to his book "Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds"...as far as i know he was in ISPR during the Kargil Conflict.

 

[ali_raza]

If you are referring to his book "Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds"...as far as i know he was in ISPR during the Kargil Conflict.

yes and i saw his interview too.i was quite young when i did that research

 

[fisher1]

I said the same thing that no matter how bad Nawaz was, Musharraf did more harm than good. Musharraf ended up sucking India's and America's dick more than Nawaz or anyone else.

And what I wrote about Kargil is a fact, not my opinion. You can have your opinion which may be subjective but facts are something which are objective. Fact is that he had supported the military through and through during the Kargil war (him being India-lover doesn't change this fact) and a smear campaign against him was launched after that failed war.

It's the same feeling the Iraqis had. One survivor of the Iraqi war said he was so happy when America invaded because he was sick of Saddam Hussain but what happened afterwards, he regretted it and wished for the rule of Saddam Hussain.

Yeah we were stupid and happy for Musharaff for overthrowing Nawaz Sharif but and people here can't admit it in their hatred for Nawaz Sharif, Musharaff was a million times more evil than NS could be.

Nawaz Sharif was overthrown by the Americans for their upcoming plan of 9/11 and Nawaz Sharif as a democratic leader could never ever do what a dictator could do. So Musharaff was chosen who had all the power without any fear of his government falling.

Musharaff divided Pakistan and made Pakistan reputation as a terrorism hub which we still can't shake off not to mention the hell we lived through where going outside our home meant you could be on the news of a bomb blast. His evil is too long.

People don't understand how the military has destroyed Pakistan. They have been foreign agents working for American interests. They bring their puppets while they run the show from behind and when public gets sick of their puppets, they swoop into save the show. Pakistan never had democracy, it's always selection or dictatorship.

People need to realise that without the power of military to silence and kill people, democratic governments will always be as strong as the support they get from public. They can never go into a war with Muslim country while supporting the Kuffar because the public will never allow it.

Look at the world and the best countries are one where there's democracy. Whenever America wanted to run a country, they installed dictators. Pakistan is the prime example.

 

[Psychic]

It's the same feeling the Iraqis had. One survivor of the Iraqi war said he was so happy when America invaded because he was sick of Saddam Hussain but what happened afterwards, he regretted it and wished for the rule of Saddam Hussain.

Yeah we were stupid and happy for Musharaff for overthrowing Nawaz Sharif but and people here can't admit it in their hatred for Nawaz Sharif, Musharaff was a million times more evil than NS could be.

Nawaz Sharif was overthrown by the Americans for their upcoming plan of 9/11 and Nawaz Sharif as a democratic leader could never ever do what a dictator could do. So Musharaff was chosen who had all the power without any fear of his government falling.

Musharaff divided Pakistan and made Pakistan reputation as a terrorism hub which we still can't shake off not to mention the hell we lived through where going outside our home meant you could be on the news of a bomb blast. His evil is too long.

People don't understand how the military has destroyed Pakistan. They have been foreign agents working for American interests. They bring their puppets while they run the show from behind and when public gets sick of their puppets, they swoop into save the show. Pakistan never had democracy, it's always selection or dictatorship.

People need to realise that without the power of military to silence and kill people, democratic governments will always be as strong as the support they get from public. They can never go into a war with Muslim country while supporting the Kuffar because the public will never allow it.

Look at the world and the best countries are one where there's democracy. Whenever America wanted to run a country, they installed dictators. Pakistan is the prime example.

I partially agree with you.

Military has its good and bad like everyone else in this country and what Musharraf did, he turned the country into a war zone, sold the dignity and wellbeing of the nation to America and surrendered Kashmir and Afghanistan to India and Indian influence respectively.

However, it would be unfair to paint the entire military with the same brush and dryclean the entire civilian leadership. Afterall, the civilian leaders themselves have a history of polishing boots. Furthermore, in a country like ours where votes are cast on the basis of biradari rather merit, the situation becomes even more complex taking into account the mental capacity of the voters. Military intervention only makes matters worse. Unless we overhaul the system ; introduce presidential system, strict voting criteria and meritocracy, we can neither prosper nor stop military from intervening. The problem of Democratic systems in countries like ours is that nothing can be done because you will have opposition(e.g KB dam). Military takes advantage of it because civilian leaders do not bother to revamp the system.

 

[Aspen]

Presenting you one of the greatest and brave COAS in the history of Pakistan and EX President General Pervez Musharraf.

When asked by an Indian Journalist: Do you have regret about Kargil?

Musharraf: Do you have regret about dividing Pakistan and Siachin?

No matter what he has done with the rest of the things He has always took India, Indian media and their leadership very strongly.

Respect

Imran khan is much better than him. And is the most popular pm Pakistan ever had

Imran Khan is the most timid, weak and anti-war PM Pakistan has ever had.

Musharraf had the balls to do both Kargil and Afghan war. Was it right or not, that is a different question, but you cannot call Musharraf weak. Kargil would have been a success if Nawaz didn't give all our gains back to India. Afghan war was never a choice for Pakistan so we made the best of it by getting rid of sanctions and taking US money and doing whatever the hell we wanted in Afghanistan.

Imran Khan does not have the balls to do a Kashmir war if Pakistan depended on it. And he gave extension to Bajwa, I expect aggression after an extension. But Bajwa is as timid and afraid as IK.

I am deeply disappointed in IK. He tweets all the time about India being like Nazis but does not back his words with action.

You know what world did to Nazis in WWII? They went to war and wiped Nazis and their radical ideology off the face of the earth.

If Pakistan is calling India Nazis, IK should not be afraid to go to war with them.

Musharraf was much more respectable because he was not afraid to go to war and stood by his word.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Presenting you one of the greatest and brave COAS in the history of Pakistan and EX President General Pervez Musharraf.

When asked by an Indian Journalist: Do you have regret about Kargil?

Musharraf: Do you have regret about dividing Pakistan and Siachin?

No matter what he has done with the rest of the things He has always took India, Indian media and their leadership very strongly.

https://www.facebook.com/

Geo mery mussharaf. This guy sent thousands of scholars abroad, and today, if somehow Pakistan is able to handle international Indian pressure, then musharraf should be credited.
After Zia and him, its jokers, all Pakistan got.
Even current joker of jokers.
Pakistan can be saved only by a compact group of patriots. Who really love Pakistan, people of Pakistan, not soil. The guys who actually know what are things on ground, and what to do. The group, that know, how to combine and organize Pakistanis as a fist. Imran may be a good guy, but people around him are same old haramis. Same incapable corrupt stuff, which were part of PPP and Noonis once. In the Machinery under him same old haramis. Same old corrupt and manipulating stuff and staff.
I mean, kia karyga Imran bechara akyla.

 

[Aspen]

Geo mery mussharaf. This guy sent thousands of scholars abroad, and today, if somehow Pakistan is able to handle international Indian pressure, then musharraf should be credited.
After Zia and him, its jokers, all Pakistan got.
Even current joker of jokers.
Pakistan can be saved only by a compact group of patriots. Who really love Pakistan, people of Pakistan, not soil. The guys who actually know what are things on ground, and what to do. The group, that know, how to combine and organize Pakistanis as a fist. Imran may be a good guy, but people around him same old haramis. Same incapable corrupt stuff. Machinery under him same old haramis. Same old corrupt and manipulating stuff.
I mean, kia karyga Imran bechara akyla.

I miss having a fearless leader with guts

 

[Prince Kassad]

Disaster was created by Imran Khan and party, which has been multiplied after they hijacked Pakistan by unfair means.



Because Pakistan is ruled by the friends of Iran, who help India more than Indians can help themselves.

Sir, are you saying you do have faith in the Pakistani Judicial system?