Kulbhushan Case. Who will win Pak India Battle in International Court of Justice

[hussain0216]

You have nothing against him, I can kidnap a pakistani and put a fake name for him on fake passport, his name will be Deepak Singh Khan and torture him and then record his confession...so yes a big LoL

You have less evidence against Mansoor Azhar

He was indian

He got caught in Balochistan

He had fake passports

He is toast,

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

if india wins, let me tell u, it will be a great dent on the credibility of ISI and our efforts in WOT internationally.........it will have far far reaching consequences.

if india only get counselor access then its a different thing. He will still be a terrorist. The case is not about kalbushan terrorism. In those courts we got lot lot of secret evidences like telephone conversation recordings, names of his gang members and their confessional statements. surveillance before arrest recordings, video of arrest, other members of RAW arrested on his information and most likey intelligence information obtained from him. No intelligence agency will arrest someone without evidences of espoinage, let alone showing on TV.

ICJ at most can declare that his rights were violated and that he should be given consular access and a civil trial with an actual defence - consular access would mean India can appoint his lawyer or even provide his lawyer. I am not arguing whether he was a spy or not. I am just telling you from a legal perspective. Pakistan might not want a public trial and India does. Why? Irrespective of his being spy - it might show he was lured into Balochistan which would constitute entrapment. The charges leveled on him could be circumstantial. Also even if he was genuinely caught and genuinely involved, it might expose Pak's own methods and officers involved in his capture which they would not like. Perhaps even their informers would.

judge would be Pakistani.
secondly, india won't be able to defend passport at civil court too.
end result :hanged.

 

[Jackdaws]

if india only get counselor access then its a different thing. He will still be a terrorist. The case is not about kalbushan terrorism. In those courts we got lot lot of secret evidences like telephone conversation recordings, names of his gang members and their confessional statements. surveillance before arrest recordings, video of arrest, other members of RAW arrested on his information and most likey intelligence information obtained from him. No intelligence agency will arrest someone without evidences of espoinage, let alone showing on TV.


judge would be Pakistani.
secondly, india won't be able to defend passport at civil court too.
end result :hanged.

So let it happen.

 

[saiyan0321]

This might extend to seeking a neutral venue for trial, the right to appoint a lawyer, and the most fundamental right, the right to consular access.

Since I was tagged, I watched both videos - with disappointment.

Hmm is there a precedent for such a thing. Neutral venue? Bcz if there isn't wouldn't it again set a precedent that such cases must be referred to a neutral venue and what is a neutral venue? Other states? thats not gonna happen and if it has I would love a case law.... Bcz that would them bring all such cases of nationals in foreign lands cases to be brought to neutral venues and where do municipal laws stand then or then there is that line that a country can invoke territorial jurisdiction if a crime is committed on its territory..... Dualism would come to play in such a situation right...

Sahi

Sahi


Ahh sorry for that.... Wanted to learn from you knowledge of international law...

As for the rest. You know Austin stated that international law is not true law but positive morality only...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir, does terrorists qualify for counsellor access?

Apparently, yes.

Hmm is there a precedent for such a thing. Neutral venue? Bcz if there isn't wouldn't it again set a precedent that such cases must be referred to a neutral venue and what is a neutral venue? Other states? thats not gonna happen and if it has I would love a case law.... Bcz that would them bring all such cases of nationals in foreign lands cases to be brought to neutral venues and where do municipal laws stand then or then there is that line that a country can invoke territorial jurisdiction if a crime is committed on its territory..... Dualism would come to play in such a situation right...

Sahi

Sahi


Ahh sorry for that.... Wanted to learn from you knowledge of international law...

As for the rest. You know Austin stated that international law is not true law but positive morality only...

I was referring to trial before a civilian court as a neutral venue.

 

[saiyan0321]

I was referring to trial before a civilian court as a neutral venue.

Oh....

Yeah most likely the most adverse is a retrial and kulbushan given consular and a lawyer...

.thanks for the info Joe

 

[Republic]

if india only get counselor access then its a different thing. He will still be a terrorist. The case is not about kalbushan terrorism. In those courts we got lot lot of secret evidences like telephone conversation recordings, names of his gang members and their confessional statements. surveillance before arrest recordings, video of arrest, other members of RAW arrested on his information and most likey intelligence information obtained from him. No intelligence agency will arrest someone without evidences of espoinage, let alone showing on TV.


judge would be Pakistani.
secondly, india won't be able to defend passport at civil court too.
end result :hanged.

Please read third day's proceedings of ICJ, posted in this forum by a Pakistani member. It will take you one hour but it is worth reading. You will get a complete overview of your standing in this case.

Mark my words, we will not only get consular access but annulment of military court proceedings and retrial by a civil court also at the minimum. Complete exoneration (not impossible if you go by the Comments and reactions of Judges) at maximum.
Here...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...-lawyer-befitting-reply.603170/#post-11190157

You must read it.
Regards.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

@Joe Shearer @saiyan0321
With respect to a retrial ina civilian court, and lawyers appointed by India, given that this is an espionage case, how does that impact confidential sources and intelligence information that is classified and Pakistan cannot share publicly and certainly not with India?

 

[khail007]

Apparently, yes.

Sir, would you please share the source?

 

[saiyan0321]

@Joe Shearer @saiyan0321
With respect to a retrial ina civilian court, and lawyers appointed by India, given that this is an espionage case, how does that impact confidential sources and intelligence information that is classified and Pakistan cannot share publicly and certainly not with India?

Joe in territorial jurisdiction the law of the land works right. What if the law of the land allows for military trials of such cases?

I haven't brushed up on our foreign espionage laws.. There is a good set of laws that run the intelligence agencies but aren't public as revealed in the order by supreme court in the rizvi case...

I don't think a full trial can happen where Intelligence agency proceedings are revealed.. This is why if a retrial order comes, we will play a very delay game since the ICJ has no mechanism for contempt of court nor execution petitions...

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

Please read third day's proceedings of ICJ, posted in this forum by a Pakistani member. It will take you one hour but it is worth reading. You will get a complete overview of your standing in this case.

Mark my words, we will not only get consular access but annulment of military court proceedings and retrial by a civil court also at the minimum. Complete exoneration (not impossible if you go by the Comments and reactions of Judges) at maximum.
Here...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...-lawyer-befitting-reply.603170/#post-11190157

You must read it.
Regards.

i read it. I think india can't save him. India so far failed to answer many questions which even ICJ look like took notice of:
1) why was matter not taken up with iran, if he was kidnapped from iran.
2) Why was a serving military(or even retired) using fake passport.
3) India never proved that he really is kalbushan yadav from india. Pakistan will give you counselor access if you prove him indian through documents, not just by talking.
4) Where is the proof that he is retired.
5) India accepted mutual agreement on counselor access. If you would have denied it,it would have been better for your case.
These points are unanswered and the fact that even ICJ judge asked indian about one of them shows that things don't look good for india at the time.

Pakistan in 2016 submitted notification that from now onward ICJ don't have any juristriction on Pakistan's security matter and judiciary matter, right after jadav arrest.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer @saiyan0321
With respect to a retrial ina civilian court, and lawyers appointed by India, given that this is an espionage case, how does that impact confidential sources and intelligence information that is classified and Pakistan cannot share publicly and certainly not with India?

Until now, nothing like that has been suggested.

In fact until now even the court judgement has not been revealed.

Sir, would you please share the source?

It is quoted by Harish Salve in his address to the ICJ; I watched it on WIONews.

i read it. I think india can't save him. India so far failed to answer many questions which even ICJ look like took notice of:
1) why was matter not taken up with iran, if he was kidnapped from iran.
2) Why was a serving military(or even retired) using fake passport.

There is nothing to show that he was using a false passport except the bald assertion of ISI agents who have an obvious need to say so.

Preparing a false passport is not beyond the capabilities of ISI.

3) India never proved that he really is kalbushan yadav from india. Pakistan will give you counselor access if you prove him indian through documents, not just by talking.

When Pakistan herself accused him of being a retired IN Commander, is she, in effect, asking for proof that her charges were correct?

When Pakistan delivered a demarche to India protesting about the activities of her citizen, is that not a testimony by the country herself?

There is something called being too clever.

4) Where is the proof that he is retired.

You have to ask the prosecution, who claimed so.

5) India accepted mutual agreement on counselor access. If you would have denied it,it would have been better for your case.

Noted. We will take care next time I walk in.

These points are unanswered and the fact that even ICJ judge asked indian about one of them shows that things don't look good for india at the time.

If that helps you digest your dinner, good for you.

Pakitan in 2016 submitted notification that from now onward ICJ don't have any juristriction on Pakistan's security matter and judiciary matter, right after jadav arrest.

Please check what comes within the jurisdiction of the ICJ.

Besides being too clever, Pakistan may - just may - have shot herself in the foot.

 

[Verve]

There is nothing to show that he was using a false passport except the bald assertion of ISI agents who have an obvious need to say so.

Just like the audio tape of Mumbai attacks being coordinated from Pakistan by Hafiz Saeed!? Right?

Surely RAW is very capable of fabricating such 'evidence' if ISI can an Indian passport.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

what jurisdiction ICJ has really in the matter? Can they overturn the conviction? Can they have the terrorist released? At best they can reprimand Pak for not giving consular access. Am I right or not? All indications point to us winning the case tho.

In cases of serious espionage or spying, counselor access can be denied.
However Yadav did have a Pakistani counsel and othet legal chances or opportunities, present under Pakistani laws.

Apart from that ICJs decision holds no binding power in Pakistan.

Remember what india did in 2000s, atlantique case?

 

[khail007]

It is quoted by Harish Salve in his address to the ICJ; I watched it on WIONews.

So you have only quotes of Harish Salve ... who is the defence and will only try to save a terrorist.

There is nothing to show that he was using a false passport except the bald assertion of ISI agents who have an obvious need to say so.

So you mean to say that the innocent Indian terrorist was enjoying a picnic trip in Balochistan-Pakistan.

Preparing a false passport is not beyond the capabilities of ISI.

A biased statement from an Indian to save the pawn - nothing else.