KENYA NAVY AND POSSIBLE F-22P AND/OR AGOSTA ACQUISITION

[kenyannoobie]

Governments don't spend b/millions on that basis.


Nor could an F22P. Or even an ex-UK Type 22 batch 3 (assuming you got one of the four that are decommissioned, awaiting disposal)


Good grief, .... in case you hadn't noticed:


RIM-162 ESSM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Raytheon Evolved SeaSparrow program delivers 2,000th missile - Aug 2, 2012
Raytheon Company: Evolved SeaSparrow Missile (ESSM)

Practice against supersonic AShM has been available for some time.
Klubs No-Trump: the USA’s MSST Supersonic Target
GQM-163 SSST: A Tricky Coyote to Match Wits With Defenses
Orbital Sciences GQM-163 Coyote
Bendix RIM-8 Talos

Various navies can destroy supersonic AShM, including US, French and UK navies

French Navy's Air Warfare Destroyers successfully intercept supersonic sea-skimming target


Phalanx CIWS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Supersonic missiles aren't invulnerable (we've dealt with supersonic planes!). Such missules are just difficult. Both Goalkeeper and Phalanx CAN deal with supersonic missiles (but the debris may hit the ship, hence the preference is shifting towards missile such as RAM and ESSM). Because of missile speed, reaction time is short, which translates to a need to detect and hit missiles at longer ranges (preferably at the launch platform). US Carriers are eminently suitable for taking out the platforms, at ranges well beyond 300km. Also, you'ld need information and information generating assets to target the missiles at ranges of 220-300km. THese too are vulnerable.

Carriers won't need to be in the Gulf to attack Iran... If anything is holding back the US from attacking Iran, it is not a few supersonic Klub missiles, but rather the fact that the US military is already heavily invested in both Iraq and Afghanistan and the economy (and therefor funding) is bad....

Klub: Iran, Vietnam, China, India, Algeria ... have them. USN can't / won't do nothing nowhere now? It is not necessarily the case that all operators have the 3M-54E1 member of the Klub family of missiles in service


Unit Cost: US$120-150m (est. for Tigr)
Steregushchy class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
It is similar in size to F22P (large corvette/small frigate). It is not particularly impressive, even with Club missiles. Compared to e.g. Milgem or K130. In all, IMHO, it would still be a waste of money, as your country's main threat is .... piracy.

Isn't the RCS of a highspeed Ashm,especially at its terminal popup phase problematic? Mind you the Gulf is too narrow for any sea room to manouvre especially 1500 foot 100,000 ton carriers.

If the sea skimming mode is chosen, the missile will be first detected by a warship under attack when it emerges over the horizon at a distance of about 15 to 25 nautical miles. This provides the defences on the ship with about 25-60 seconds of warning time before impact. Moreover the speed of the Moskit makes it a challenging target for many shipboard defences.

Sunburn for the RAN?


Of the Club they say:
Both the 3M-54E1 and 3M-54E are small weapons which are difficult to detect on radar, especially should even basic radar signature reduction techniques be applied to them. The use of a bandpass radome and minimal absorbent coatings could push the weapon's head on radar cross section down to that of a large grapefruit (Refer Knott, Schaeffer & Tuley, Radar Cross Section, Ch.14).
Also,IIRC a single subsonic Iraqi Exocet nearly cut the USS Stark in half in 1987. Yes in technological terms it was a generation ago,but can we discount such dangers on the basis of perfect lab condition anti missile tests?

Yes our main threat is currently piracy;but look at this:

On Thursday night an airborne unit,the 40th Ranger Strike Force staged a night low level drop,while a company of KN marines deployed from the sole Landing Ship Personnel, KNS Galana early Friday supported by 4 gunboats and landed on the beaches on 11m rigid inflatables to scant resistance.

Karanja'z Place: THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE KISMAYU CAPTURE

What if there was a heavier resistance beyond the ability of the 4 gunboats and their 40 mm guns? Say,such an op were done say in Puntland,where the gov't is an active player in piracy and therefore resists such a landing?
Btw,this isn't a simple wish list;I'm too old for such things and find them too tedious for words but rather an explanation into what IMO are very real threats that should inform any KN acquisition program.
Is is that a bridge too far for now,in your opinion?

 

[Penguin]

SMALL is a relative term...

Moskit is a big 4 ton missile
Length: 9.39 m
Diameter: 0.76 m
Wingspan: 2.10 m
MissileThreat :: SS-N-22

Onix, while smaller, is still a big 3 ton missile
Length: 8.90 m
Diameter: 0.67 m
Launch Weight: 3000.00 kg
MissileThreat :: SS-N-26

Likewise Brahmos PJ-10
Length: 8.0-8.2 m
Diameter: 0.67 m
Launch Weight: 3000.00 kg
MissileThreat :: BrahMos PJ-10

Klub, though yet smaller, is still a big 2 ton missile
Length: 8.22 m
Diameter: 0.53 m
Wingspan: 2.10 m
MissileThreat :: SS-N-27

By comparison

Taiwan's supersonic HF3
Length: 5.1 m
Diameter: 0.38 m
Launch Weight: 660 kg
MissileThreat :: Hsiung Feng 3

MM40 subsonic Exocet
Length: 5.80 m
Diameter: 0.35 m
Launch Weight: 870.00 kg
MissileThreat :: MM-40 Exocet

UGM084 subsonic Harpoon
Length: 4.64 m
Diameter: 0.34 m
Launch Weight: 682.00 kg
MissileThreat :: UGM-84

What you say about RCS of antiship missiles applied equally to subsonic missiles, which are smaller diameter relative to these supersonics missiles to begin with...

I'm not debating the effectiveness of anti-ship missiles, just pointing out that supersonic missiles can be overcome. For every threat a defence is eventually developed. That is the nature of the game.

I'm not dismissing existing threats to Kenya, I simple don't think the ones you've described require a comparatively expensive solution such as submarines and multirole frigates. Expensive to acquire, man, run and maintain. Not to mention complex and therefor more prone to technical failure in a setting where funding and ability to maintain are possibly both limited and neglect may occur (check the F-5E fleet status)

For example, from your link:

Considering the small size, poor condition and inexperience of Kenya’s fighter force, it’s perhaps surprising that the F-5s have been so busy over Somalia.... Kenya’s air force is notoriously inexperienced and dilapidated, even by the modest standards of East African air arms.

Consider for anti-piracy coastal operations where more than a 40mm is needed a 500 ton ship such as the Project 21630 Buyan class, for example (100mm gun, 2x30mm, 2x 12.7mm HMG, 122mm MLRS, GIBKA remote launcher for MANPADS). I think its support firepower will overmatch anything in that area of the world, short of the major four navies I mentioned.
http://russian-ships.info/eng/warships/project_21630.htm

 

[Penguin]

ps: you forgot to mention an Argie Exocet killing a Limey Type 42 destroyer during the Falklands...

Note F-173 HMS Arrow assisting. Following decommissioning Type 21 Arrow was transferred to Pakistan and renamed PNS Khaibar. She serves PN today.

 

[kenyannoobie]

SMALL is a relative term...

Moskit is a big 4 ton missile
Length: 9.39 m
Diameter: 0.76 m
Wingspan: 2.10 m
MissileThreat :: SS-N-22

Onix, while smaller, is still a big 3 ton missile
Length: 8.90 m
Diameter: 0.67 m
Launch Weight: 3000.00 kg
MissileThreat :: SS-N-26

Likewise Brahmos PJ-10
Length: 8.0-8.2 m
Diameter: 0.67 m
Launch Weight: 3000.00 kg
MissileThreat :: BrahMos PJ-10

Klub, though yet smaller, is still a big 2 ton missile
Length: 8.22 m
Diameter: 0.53 m
Wingspan: 2.10 m
MissileThreat :: SS-N-27

By comparison

Taiwan's supersonic HF3
Length: 5.1 m
Diameter: 0.38 m
Launch Weight: 660 kg
MissileThreat :: Hsiung Feng 3

MM40 subsonic Exocet
Length: 5.80 m
Diameter: 0.35 m
Launch Weight: 870.00 kg
MissileThreat :: MM-40 Exocet

UGM084 subsonic Harpoon
Length: 4.64 m
Diameter: 0.34 m
Launch Weight: 682.00 kg
MissileThreat :: UGM-84

What you say about RCS of antiship missiles applied equally to subsonic missiles, which are smaller diameter relative to these supersonics missiles to begin with...

I'm not debating the effectiveness of anti-ship missiles, just pointing out that supersonic missiles can be overcome. For every threat a defence is eventually developed. That is the nature of the game.

I'm not dismissing existing threats to Kenya, I simple don't think the ones you've described require a comparatively expensive solution such as submarines and multirole frigates. Expensive to acquire, man, run and maintain. Not to mention complex and therefor more prone to technical failure in a setting where funding and ability to maintain are possibly both limited and neglect may occur (check the F-5E fleet status)

For example, from your link:

That quote was an example of Western arrogance and ignorance. The f5s were upgraded at a Jordanian facility.
Consider for anti-piracy coastal operations where more than a 40mm is needed a 500 ton ship such as the Project 21630 Buyan class, for example (100mm gun, 2x30mm, 2x 12.7mm HMG, 122mm MLRS, GIBKA remote launcher for MANPADS). I think its support firepower will overmatch anything in that area of the world, short of the major four navies I mentioned.
Small Artillery Ships - Project 21630

Hmmmm.......the Buyan packs a punch for its size. Could be exceedingly useful in a small contested landing op. Btw,there's quite a lot happening here in Africa and I emailed the mod to see the possibility of a special regional thread.
Still waiting for a response-what do you think?

 

[Penguin]

That quote was an example of Western arrogance and ignorance. The f5s were upgraded at a Jordanian facility.

From wiki:

Since 1978, it [F-5E] is the KAF's main air defence fighter. A total of 29 Delivered: 12 F-5E & 2 F-5F from USA+ 13 F-5EM & 2 F-5F ex RJAF (the ex RJAF aircraft were upgraded to F-5EM standard before being delivered to the Kenya Air Force).
...
There has been a controversy over the purchase of used F-5 jets from Jordan, which were shipped to Kenya and assembled locally

Kenya Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Followed to the source article on controversy:

The most explosive issue the team was to tackle were allegations of procurement irregularities in a transaction that saw the government buy 15 F-5 military airplanes from the government of Jordan.

Such has been the secrecy surrounding the controversial purchase of F-5 from Jordan that even yesterday’s proceedings on the subject had to be heard in camera, with journalists ordered out of proceedings in the name of protecting ‘national security’.

The 15 second-hand jets were purchased at a cost of $450,000 (Sh36,225,000 at current exchange rates) each. They went through a communications upgrade and were painted in Kenya colours.

There have been questions over the cost of the upgrade and the fact that the jets were dismantled and moved to Kenya in kit form for assembly locally instead of being flown from Jordan.

There have also been claims that on assembly locally, the jets have not been able to fly.

Kenya's military bosses fail to answer query on jets - Politics - nation.co.ke

Also, consider why Kenya bought used F-5Es post-2000... particularly since production stopped 1989.
Kenya Airforce buys junk fighter jets « The Nairobi Chronicle

This is what world-renowned defence publication JANES says:

The Kenyan Air Force is the largest and arguably the most professional air arm in East Africa, but has begun to experience declining levels of operability as its primary equipment ages and suffers losses through attrition and lack of maintenance. Almost all of the current inventory was acquired over 25 years ago and is likely to require near simultaneous replacement. Serviceability of the few remaining Northrop F-5 Tiger II combat aircraft has been deteriorating, prompting the government to officially announce in July 2007 its intention to obtain replacement aircraft. Air force personnel had previously inspected a number of surplus Royal Saudi Air Force F-5s in April 2005, with a view to purchasing 10 F-5Es and four two-seat F-5F trainers to restore the Laikipia-based fighter unit to full strength, but no deal emerged. Kenya then began to look elsewhere and subsequently concluded successful negotiations with Jordan involving the acquisition of 13 F-5Es and a pair of F-5Fs. However, it appears that many of these aircraft are suffering poor levels of serviceability, prompting a parliamentary investigation into this procurement. Problems have also been apparent in the maintenance and serviceability levels of helicopters, with a number of Pumas being sent to South Africa for maintenance for extended periods. In April 2007 the Kenyan government announced that it intended to procure second-hand helicopters in the short term to fill gaps in its capabilities; however, the most recent acquisition in 2010 involved a batch of eight Z-9WE Haitun helicopters from China, all of which are believed...

Air force (Kenya) - Sentinel Security Assessment - Central Africa

 

[mewood66]

My name is Mark Wood, and I'm an assitant editor for an international military magazine. We are interested in republishing the second of the two photos in your post in our magazine. Do you hold the rights to the photo, and if so, would you grant permission for us to reprint? And if you do not hold the rights, can you tell us who does and how to contact them? Please respond to my email, mewood66 at gmail.com, at your earliest convenience. Thanks!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The biggest mistake that PN did was stopped and slowed down the induction of Agosta-90Bs like they can have about 7 of these till 2006 if they followed the right path. And can also be exported 3 to BD, 2 to Srilanka and may be 3-4 to Kenya and some others as well.

If we had started assembling the 2nd and 3rd one simultaneously in 1999 and then producing 4th and 5th one in the next 2 years and then 6th and 7th one till 2005-6 then we can started producing two of these in every 1.5 years to supply to BDs, Srilanka and Kenya too with French Permission which we had at that time too.

Source:
Agosta Class submarine orders and deliveries
Three Agosta 90Bs were ordered by the Pakistan Navy in September 1994. The first, Khalid (S137), was built at DCN’s Cherbourg yard and was commissioned in 1999. The second, Saad, assembled at Karachi Naval Dockyard, was launched in August 2002 and was commissioned in December 2003. The third, Hamza, was constructed and assembled in Karachi, launched in August 2006 and commissioned in September 2008.
Work on the Hamza was halted for a time following a terrorist attack in May 2002, which killed 11 French engineers in Karachi. The third submarine was fitted with the MESMA air-independent propulsion system. The MESMA AIP successfully completed Pakistan Navy acceptance trials. In March 2007, Pakistan placed an order with DCNS for the retrofit of the MESMA AIP to the first two Khalid Class submarines, which were delivered in December 2011.
Pakistan has been given a license by DCNS to offer commercial production of the submarines to potential customers.

Although PN also has a great chance of joining the French with Scorpion and Andrasta Submarine Program along with Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia and may be some others as well to start inducting them after 7 Agosta-90Bs.
We should have upgraded the current facility as well as build the third shipyard in 1999 to add capability.

What is this `BLOCK 2 ` section are we building More Agosta Submarines

Hmm that is a interesting little image you got there , by this image acccount
Are we due to recieve a new submarine in 2013 ? hmmmmm ...

There is no credible source on this image .. which has block 2 Agosta

 

[kenyannoobie]

Happy new year to all defence.pkers! I'm reliably informed an Azmat type will be arriving in a year or 2 to beef up the brown water gunboats while the type 056 is still in the pipeline. Looking at the Azmat type armament in its 2 configurations it actually rivals a corvette of light frigate in firepower.
The first has

1x What looks like a 25mm twin barell auto cannon as the main gun.
*2x quadruple launchers of (i assume) all aspect TY-90 SAM's
2x manual 12.7mm machine guns in the port and starboard.
2x quadruple launchers for the C-802 (Ying Ji 82) anti-ship missile.
air/surface Search radar

and the 2nd version has
25mm twin barell main gun
1x rear facing AK 630 CIWS
2x quadruple C-802 missile launchers
Air/surface search radar

Thats truly an excellent optimisation of deckspace on 60 meters and 600 tons but I ask: I sit possible to have a heavier 40 mm or 70 mm bowmounted super rapid?

 

[airomerix]

Congratulations!

 

[kenyannoobie]

I'm reliably informed the KN is establishing a Expeditionary Marine Force in the next couple of years ,the nucleus of which will be a 600 man battalion. It will be for disaster relief/civil unrest/peacekeeping within the wider region(refer to map). What hulls do you recommend?
I need your input-come on,guys!

 

[Penguin]

AN LSL or LST type ship, along the lines of the Indian Magar class or Turkish Sarucabey class. Or a small LPD, along the lines of the Indonesian Makassar-class, or the larger Schelde Enforcer range e.g. Spain´s Galicia - Dutch Rotterdam lpd (of which UK Bay class is a derivative). Another interesting type is HMNZS Canterbury, a multi-role vessel (MRV) of the Royal New Zealand Navy. Or the new Dutch support ship )Joint Logistic Support Ship )

 

[p3avi8tor69]

Kenyannoobie,

Your country does not and will not have F15e. Any sale of US military hardware or FMS (Foreign Military Sale) has to clear our Congress. One of the stipulations are that any sale "should not tip the balance of power in the region.... and that the security of the U.S. will be enhanced etc etc". F15's aren't toys. You need an entire system to support it , to keep if flying etc. We just don't sell them to anyone, we look at the whole picture and decide if a sale will be in our long term interest.

BTW the comment about F15 as stop gap is hilarious.

 

[kenyannoobie]

Kenyannoobie,

Your country does not and will not have F15e. Any sale of US military hardware or FMS (Foreign Military Sale) has to clear our Congress. One of the stipulations are that any sale "should not tip the balance of power in the region.... and that the security of the U.S. will be enhanced etc etc". F15's aren't toys. You need an entire system to support it , to keep if flying etc. We just don't sell them to anyone, we look at the whole picture and decide if a sale will be in our long term interest.

BTW the comment about F15 as stop gap is hilarious.

I'll leave the f-15 issue with a suggestion: have a contact in the Air National Guard logistics section. The birds are sourced from a 3rd country.
A KN OPV is currently under construction at Goa shipyards. If my info is correct its this 105 m model:http://www.goashipyard.co.in/products_specialized_products_105_m_advanced_offshore_patrol_vessel.asp
I've realised forumers perhaps didn't realise the strategic importance of the Lamu to Douala rail/road link which kicked off last year. The map reveals its of global implications.

Now the KN needs are clearer.

 

[p3avi8tor69]

You are hilarious. Your contact is either fictional or you made that up. F15 cannot be sourced from a third nation. We have the final say or approve the re-sale of our equipment to third party which almost never happens unless the equipment is 60 years old or if the reseller is a NATO country and such sale are never hushed hushed. No offence to Kenya (which BTW is a beautiful country) but you aint got the dollars and the nor the relationship.

 

[kenyannoobie]

You are hilarious. Your contact is either fictional or you made that up. F15 cannot be sourced from a third nation. We have the final say or approve the re-sale of our equipment to third party which almost never happens unless the equipment is 60 years old or if the reseller is a NATO country and such sale are never hushed hushed. No offence to Kenya (which BTW is a beautiful country) but you aint got the dollars and the nor the relationship.

Ok!