Kaveri Engine Project update

[tvsram1992]

With Russian and French help we can make an operational engine with in a decade . We can also use kaveri for Rafales in MLU .

 

[Boson]

But not on LCA, it wasn't even integrated for ground tests and taxi trials so far,

Because tests using IL-76 were an important phase of testing, which is now complete (result: success - Kaveri didn't fail or show any abnormal or unexpected behaviour up above in actual flight conditions. Design capabilities proven on ground were replicated in the air).

But we know this result only post-facto. It was entirely possible that Kaveri abruptly lost power or other issues emerged in actual flight testing on IL-76. Then what? ---- That's where the 3 other engines on IL-76 prevent a crash and bring back the engine under testing safely back for further investigation.

If the Kaveri was directly flight tested with LCA .... the unproven capabilities presented a risk that the LCA could crash, since there is no other backup proven engine to land the plane safely.

It is not wise to test an unproven engine on a single-engine aircraft.

Hence, the decision to use IL-76 instead of LCA is entirely justified.

Given the success with IL-76, comes the next step to test the Kaveri on an LCA prototype, as a technology demonstrator.

Putting Kaveri on the LCA is the second step. It could not have been the first thing to do.

which makes the claim that it would offer enough thrust for 75% of the requirement more than unlikely.

I think the "which" in the above statement is explained above. Hence, there is no "which" that proves that Kaveri is not suitable to cover 75% of LCA's flight envelope.

In fact, the Kaveri is going to be flight tested on a technology demonstrator LCA prototype because of sufficient confidence now, that Kaveri is considered reliable enough to be flown an an unstable aircraft like LCA.. which critically depends on the Fly-by-wire and guaranteed availability of engine power to be able to land safety.

LCA can't land like a glider in case of loss of engine power ... because it is unstable (this instability is a design feature in all FBW planes of fourth generation). So, it will not be wise to test an unreliable engine on such a plane.

The chinese evidently risked the WS-10A on a J-10, and it crashed because once the engine goes off (and even if off, is unable to re-ignite) .... a crash is a given for any fourth generation jet.

Testing the engine on other test aircrafts or ground test facilities doesn't matter here, because the engine was not meant to be a tech demonstrator, but to power LCA and it is a failure in this field.

This is just a matter of language ... every failure can be seen as a learning step for improvement. We are much better placed to build a turbofan engine to power the LCA, with the Kaveri engine in place, than without this vital piece of experience and key building blocks.

It is easy to infer that the next (more powerful) turbofan engine designed India.. will simply copy a large bulk of the technologies from the Kaveri project. Many techonologies / components are redundant and have excess requirements. These components will move as-is from an 81KN engine .. to a 95KN engine .... to a 120 or 150 KN engine.

The focus of next round of enhancements will be on where the Kaveri lacks .... we won't need to do reliability tests on every nut and bolt for the next engine.... but which we did need to do for the first turbofan we designed (i.e. Kaveri).

DRDO was only able to offer a tech demonstrator so far and hopes to base future engine developments on the limited experience they got now.

Same as what I wrote above. Future engine developments will not need to be from ground up.

When we started Kaveri ... we even needed to calibrate the insturments which compute how much thrust did the engine deliver.... and what not. The development costs of Kaveri include the first laboratories set up for materials fabrication and testing engine components .. to testing the fully assembled engine.

The several thousand hours of ground testing have yielded vital calibration charts ... based on which the next engine will need lesser tests (just as LCA Mk-2 needs lesser tests ... than the LCA Mk-1 because we've already built our flight profile charts).

But as they admited, for any fighter development K9 is not useful and they are not good enough to do it alone, therefor even they want foreign support!

We need to get the job done .... let's not worry about the "colour of the cat, as far as it kills mice".

With or without foreign support is not key .... but we need to own the technologies vital for our defence preparedness.

A turbofan engine is a complicabled, but vital technology.

Even Shaki engine was developed in collaboration with Snecma .... but now we don't need "Snecma's permission" to build as many Shakti engines as we like.

And we are free to go our own way, to build up further on the Shakti engine.

It is stupidity not to collaborate, if foreign collaboration saves costs and speeds up the work.

So when you look at it with a more realistic view, the glass is not even half full and there is still much to go to fill it!

What is important is that : (1) Glass is not fully empty; the filling up process starts with a drop.
and (2) The process of filling up must continue ... in the sense that we should not give up and let it remain to just one drop ... but keep filling it up .. if possible at a faster rate.

 

[sancho]

What is important is that : (1) Glass is not fully empty; the filling up process starts with a drop.
and (2) The process of filling up must continue ... in the sense that we should not give up and let it remain to just one drop ... but keep filling it up .. if possible at a faster rate.

No, what's important is to admit the mistakes and failures of and learn from them, but DRDO is simply switching to the next "ambitious" projects and distracting with some babysteps by selling them as milestones, or major achievements. Testing K9 on IL 76 proved nothing than that the engine works in general, but nothing else since it didn't powered the aircraft and the IL would have flown with the 3 normal engines anyway.
All the time and money we spend and the delays it caused in the LCA project were wasted because of DRDO and this can't be taken that easily. Somebody has to be taken accountable for this and there should be changes in DRDOs project management and an analysis of all that went wrong, only then they can improve again!

 

[Boson]

No, what's important is to admit the mistakes and failures of and learn from them, but DRDO is simply switching to the next "ambitious" projects (?? - what ambitious project: putting Kaveri on a technology demonstator LCA is "ambitious" project??)and distracting with some babysteps by selling them as milestones, or major achievements. Testing K9 on IL 76 proved nothing (?? - so we should have put the Kaveri directly on LCA, just like stupid china)than that the engine works in general, but nothing else since it didn't powered the aircraft and the IL would have flown with the 3 normal engines anyway.(?? - so you mean to say that Kaveri was coupled with IL-76 only for a photo / video opportunity.)

All the time and money we spend and the delays it caused in the LCA project were wasted because of DRDO and this can't be taken that easily. Somebody has to be taken accountable for this and there should be changes in DRDOs project management and an analysis of all that went wrong, only then they can improve again!

You need to be able to support anything above with reliable news in the media.... or consider what basis you provide for your own statements : see highlighted things above !

 

[The A-5]

Here is an image of the marine gas turbine version of Kaveri engine -

 

[sudhir007]

 

[RPK]

India Considers New Partnership Options For Kaveri Engine | Aviation International News


India’s Defense Research Development Organization (DRDO) has confirmed that it has abandoned plans to jointly develop and produce the Kaveri military aircraft engine solely with France’s Snecma. The change in plan has come after India ordered 99 of General Electric’s F-414 engines—in preference to the Eurojet 2000 engine—for its indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Mark II program, for which the Kaveri is supposed to be an alternative powerplant. “We still need an overseas partner, but it will not be Snecma on a single-vendor basis,” CP Ramnarayanan, director of the DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) recently told Indian reporters. “We will select our partner through competitive bidding.”


A DRDO official told AIN on condition of anonymity that if the Kaveri partnership is retendered the contenders will be Snecma and Russia’s Saturn. “Today’s [engine] technology requires the same weight ratio to have much more power with low maintenance costs. The Russian philosophy is to make it cheaper and let maintenance be somebody else’s headache,” he commented.

However, some analysts have described the decision as a wise one given that GTRE will already get some access to technology for Snecma’s M88 engine that powers Dassault Aviation’s Rafale multirole fighter that India has selected. From an Indian perspective, this lessened the case for cooperating with Snecma on the Kaveri engine. However, according to a government defense official speaking on condition of anonymity, India will have to wait much longer for crystal blade technology, metallurgy and a full understanding of the hot section under the terms of its existing transfer of technology agreement.

What remains to be seen is whether India may now pursue an alternative Russian-led option for developing the Kaveri engine. In 2010, Russia’s Central Institute for Aviation Motors (TsIAM) conducted flight testing of a Kaveri turbofan on an Ilyushin Il-76 test bed. This research into how to achieve the desired performance was presented to the Indians, who in theory could now opt to reconsider a Russian partnership for the program.

 

[Black Widow]

No, what's important is to admit the mistakes and failures of and learn from them, but DRDO is simply switching to the next "ambitious" projects and distracting with some babysteps by selling them as milestones, or major achievements. Testing K9 on IL 76 proved nothing than that the engine works in general, but nothing else since it didn't powered the aircraft and the IL would have flown with the 3 normal engines anyway.
All the time and money we spend and the delays it caused in the LCA project were wasted because of DRDO and this can't be taken that easily. Somebody has to be taken accountable for this and there should be changes in DRDOs project management and an analysis of all that went wrong, only then they can improve again!

Dude what is this???? Being a senior member and defence enthusiast you must know how research goes...

1. India can never put new engine directly on plane unless the engine has regerous tested.
2. It will take 2-3 years of testing/modification of Kaveri on LCA. Then only there will be green signal.

Either we should go China way (Induct without proper testing) or Western way (testing centric). If India will go CHinese way, trust me you will be the first to cry (for inferior product).

 

[faithfulguy]

No, what's important is to admit the mistakes and failures of and learn from them, but DRDO is simply switching to the next "ambitious" projects and distracting with some babysteps by selling them as milestones, or major achievements. Testing K9 on IL 76 proved nothing than that the engine works in general, but nothing else since it didn't powered the aircraft and the IL would have flown with the 3 normal engines anyway.
All the time and money we spend and the delays it caused in the LCA project were wasted because of DRDO and this can't be taken that easily. Somebody has to be taken accountable for this and there should be changes in DRDOs project management and an analysis of all that went wrong, only then they can improve again!

I believe that India should get rid of this failed project. Stop playing with the gullible Indian enthusiasts by talking about how this engine can go on trains, ship, death stars, etc.

 

[Black Widow]

I believe that India should get rid of this failed project. Stop playing with the gullible Indian enthusiasts by talking about how this engine can go on trains, ship, death stars, etc.

We don't need your certificate of excellence.. Please refrain from giving certificate. and its not a failed project, It is able to deliver same thrust as GE404 (170 KG heavier though)

So get rid and what? close the project???

 

[faithfulguy]

We don't need your certificate of excellence.. Please refrain from giving certificate.

So get rid and what? close the project???

Quietly cancel this project. Start joint engine development with more advance countries. Don't go alone if you guys are not capable.

 

[Black Widow]

Quietly cancel this project. Start joint engine development with more advance countries. Don't go alone if you guys are not capable.

Thanks but no thanks.... Your suggestion is not required. Now have a nice day..

 

[Aegis DDG]

Damn that's an sexy turbofan engine. Is it doing wet thrust or dry thrust?

 

[jarves]

Damn that's an sexy turbofan engine. Is it doing wet thrust or dry thrust?

It is undergoing testing,Here is a clear pic @Aegis DDG

 

[jarves]

The indigenous Kaveri aero engine, conceived to power home-built fighter plane Tejas but generally written off as a 25-year, Rs. 2,100-crore drain on resources, now looks set to resume where it left off two years ago and complete the last lap of its development.

A surprisingly strong nudge from the government and prospects of good funds in recent months have given tailwinds to the engine programme; a revised proposal has been made on the government’s advice for the remaining part of the Kaveri activity, according to DRDO Director General (Aero) K. Tamilmani and Director, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) C.P. Ramanarayanan. They did not elaborate on what the proposals are.

The Kaveri’s last big activity was in 2011, when it took a flight test in Russia fitted on the Il-76 transport plane. Although 90 per cent of the flight envelop was covered, at least five problems showed up, according to scientists.

Since then, the GTRE has worked on the nagging issues and would take Kaveri to its logical conclusion up to certification, Dr. Tamilmani said on Tuesday while announcing an upcoming conference of the organisation.

Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engine’s performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards.

“When we do that, we will have the first indigenous [aero]engine with proven and certified performance for exploitation” — meaning it would be rendered suitable for fitting on future Indian-made military or passenger aircraft — Dr. Ramanarayanan told The Hindu later.

Dr. Tamilmani said a ready engine would precede an indigenous aircraft programme, a model followed worldwide.

The aero engine has been a vital but missing link in the country’s military aviation, which has to buy them from foreign makers at huge costs. Each aircraft needs to replace its engines three or four times during its lifetime.

In 2008, Kaveri was de-linked from its original platform, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Earlier this year, senior scientists said it would be used to fly unmanned air vehicles of the armed forces. Its derivatives could go into powering ships, too.

The Ministry of Defence is buying 99 GE F414 engines for the LCA from global engines major GE for Rs. 3,000 crore.

The DRDO has missed the LCA mandate but still hopes to achieve the final objective, possibly for other equally important projects, Dr. Ramanarayanan said.

A 2011 survey by the GTRE estimated that this decade, India could spend Rs. 1.8 lakh crore to buy engines plus another Rs. 4 lakh crore for their upkeep. The DRDO scientists admit to slip-ups and lost opportunities.

In a separate activity, military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is developing engines for its helicopters and trainer aircraft by 2018.

New tailwinds for Kaveri engine - The Hindu

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/new-tailwinds-for-kaveri-engine/article5190724.ece