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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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So AM, why don't you allow the Kashmir you hold that much bandied "self determination", and that done, join forces witht those newly self-determined Kashmiris/Pakistanis and come and launch a full frontal assault on terrorist India to free the other 2/3?

What's holding you guys back?

Would be so much less painful that this ..... :hitwall:

As a nation, you need to develop the spine and the courage of conviction to back up your words with action, and not hide behind and under "proxy" skirts my friend.

Or pathetic crumbling "non-state" facades.

Cheers, Doc

As a nation then you guys should not also have armed, trained and supported the Mukthi Bani in dismembering Pakistan, as a nation you should also have made a direct assault and not hide behind and under "proxy Mukhti Bani" skirts, and once PA weakened, do an assault.

So since same thing was done by India, used proxies and then launched the assault when saw Pakistan weak, same case with us, first weaken you guys, then will do the assault.

So before pointing at us, see to your own cowardly actions of supporting proxies for terrorism and dismembering Pakistan.
 
Thanks Taimi. ;)

And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!

Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.

Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.

And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.

Cheers, Doc
 
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Thanks Taimi. ;)

And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!

Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.

Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.

And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.

Cheers, Doc

Thanks for your advice, and if we had only wanted to avenge for 71, then there are many other ways to do that also, but its not about just avenging.

Time will tell who self destructs, still thanks for your concern.
 
That is incorrect, as argued out in the Resolutions thread and the 1948 war thread, between Toxic and myself.

The demilitarization was not unilateral and unconditional and was contingent on negotiations between Pakistan, India and the UN rapporteurs, and the language of the UNSC resolutions reflected that, which is often ignored by Indian commentators to paint Pakistan as having violated the resolutions by not unilaterally withdrawing.

Please check those threads for the discussion.

Are you referring to this:

The Truce Agreement does talk of tripartite negotiations, but not to ‘determine the details and process of demilitarization’. Part II/B(1) reads:

“When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A 2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission”​

Nehru while seeking clarifications on the resolution of 13th Aug, 1948, had sought to identify the parties to the negotiation concerning demilitarization. He wrote to Joseph Korbel, the Chairman of the Commission, on 20th Aug, 1948 (UNCIP’s 1st Report):
“...the paramount need for security is recognized by the Commission, and the time when the withdrawal of Indian forces from the State is to begin, the stages in which it is to be carried out and the strength of Indian forces to be retained in the State, are matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India.” (para 4)​
Joseph Korbel, wrote back, on 25th Aug, 1948, confirming Nehru’s interpretation (UNCIP’s 1st Report):
“The Commission requests me to convey to Your Excellency its view that the interpretation of the Resolution as expressed in paragraph 4 of your letter coincides with its own interpretation...”​
Pakistan, too, had sought clarification on this very issue. Joseph Korbel, in his letter to Zafarulla Khan, dated 3rd Sept, 1948, stated (UNCIP’s 1st Report):
“As regards paragraphs B 1 and 2 of Part II, the Commission, while recognizing the paramount need for security of the State of Jammu ad Kashmir, confirms that the minimum strength required for the purpose of assisting the local authorities in the observance of law and order, would be determined by the Commission and the Government of India. The Commission considers that it is free to hear the views of the Government of Pakistan on the subject.”
In other words, India was neither obliged to negotiate with Pakistan nor to share information about demilitarization with anyone other than UN Commission. Neither did Pakistan have any right to dictate terms and conditions for its own withdrawal or seek information from India, or perhaps even from UN, about India’s withdrawal. Pakistan’s role was relegated to that of someone who Commission may ‘hear’, and not that of a party to the negotiation. As far as India was concerned, UN was ‘free to hear views’ of Jupiterions, if UN so desired.

UNCIP’s 3rd Report, clarifies the positions of the two countries on this issue of demilitarization and the process of negotiations.

''...the Pakistan delegation held (a) that the objective of the truce agreement is to create a military balance between the forces on each side and (b) that the withdrawal of her regular forces depended upon plans acceptable to the Pakistan Government for the synchronization of this withdrawal that of the bulk of the Indian forces. (para 229)

India, on the other hand, has (a) never accepted the claim of Pakistan to equality of rights in a military or any other sphere, but considers that the presence of Pakistan troops in Kashmir constitutes an act of aggression and a violation of international law; and (b) has refused to discuss with Pakistan any feature of the withdrawal of Indian forces, maintaining that the timing and staging of the Indian withdrawals and the strength of Indian forces to be retained in the State were matters for settlement between the Commission and the Government of India. The Government of India at this time also made it clear that the fulfillment by the Government of Pakistan of the conditions of withdrawal was a condition precedent to the implementation by the Government of India of any arrangement regarding the withdrawal of its own forces. (para 230)​

The Truce Agreement is clear that Pakistan would have to evacuate the territories captured by it and the local authority will be looking after the administration of the evacuated territory under the direct supervision of the UN Commission.

“Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.” [Part II/A(3)]

By no stretch of imagination can this be construed that ‘the objective of the truce agreement is to create a military balance between the forces on each side’. This deliberately flawed position of (a) led to (b). From Pakistan’s point of view, if it could be established that the withdrawal was about bringing in a ‘military balance’, it would then naturally mean that Pakistan got to decide what, for them, was an acceptable ‘military balance’. This in turn would mean that Pakistan’s withdrawal was contingent upon its agreement with Indian plan of withdrawal. It would then be very easy for Pakistan to weasel out of its own obligation by simply citing its disagreement with Indian plan of demilitarization. (That’s exactly what they did eventually and continue to do)

The Commission had on several occasions, clarified, that Pakistan had to ‘completely’ withdraw from the occupied part. The evacuated land was then to become UN’s concern and Pakistan had absolutely no role to play in it (not even in the subsequent plebiscite). Pakistan’s argument, based on its flawed premise, was in complete contradiction with the Commission’s clarifications. For example, UNCIP’s 3rd Report states:

“...the Resolution […], as has been pointed out, draws a distinction between the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistan forces. Pakistan troops are to begin to withdraw in advance of the Indian troops and their withdrawal is not conditioned on Pakistan's agreement to the plan of the Indian withdrawal.” (para 242)

“That Resolution does not suggest that Pakistan should be entitled to make her withdrawals conditional upon the consultations envisaged between the Commission and the Government of India having led to an agreed schedule of withdrawal of Indian troops. What Pakistan could expect would be that assurance be made that the withdrawals of the two armed forces be arranged and carried out in such a way as to prevent the creation of a situation which might constitute an opportunity for one or the other party to reopen the hostilities.” (para 243)

To summarise, (a) negotiations regarding demilitarization was very much a bipartite affair, where Pakistan had limited role to play, if at all it had any role to play, and (b) Pakistan’s withdrawal was ‘unconditional’ and ‘unilateral’, in the sense that it didn’t depend on India’s plan for demilitarization.
___________________________

End Note:

UNCIP’s 1st Report was prepared by Mr Alfredo Lonazo, representative of Columbia and is dated 22, Nov, 1948. Commission’s chairman was Mr Joseph Korbel.

UNCIP’s 3rd Report was prepared by Mr Robert van de Karchove, representative of Belgium and is dated 9 Dec, 1949. Commission’s chairman was Mr Hernando Semper.

I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.
 
As a nation then you guys should not also have armed, trained and supported the Mukthi Bani in dismembering Pakistan, as a nation you should also have made a direct assault and not hide behind and under "proxy Mukhti Bani" skirts, and once PA weakened, do an assault.

So since same thing was done by India, used proxies and then launched the assault when saw Pakistan weak, same case with us, first weaken you guys, then will do the assault.

So before pointing at us, see to your own cowardly actions of supporting proxies for terrorism and dismembering Pakistan.
If the basis of your argument is who did what before whom, you would loose fair and square. First, 1947 infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir, and then 1965 infiltration into the sovereign state of India, all under the proxy skirt of freedom fighting™.
 
Thanks Taimi. ;)

And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!

Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.

Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.

And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.

Cheers, Doc
O daktaar saheb, Kashmir was never about Kashmiris, not to Paksitan. Here is Bhutto's assessment for your amusement.

If a Muslim majority area can remain a part of India, then the raison d'etre of Pakistan collapses. These are the reasons why India, to continue her domination of Jammu and Kashmir, defies international opinion and violates her pledges. For the same reasons, Pakistan must continue unremittingly her struggle for the right of self-determination of this subject people. Pakistan is incomplete without Jammu and Kashmir both territorially and ideologically. Recovering them, she would recover her head and be made whole, stronger, and more viable. It would be fatal if, in sheer exhaustion or out of intimidation, Pakistan were to abandon the struggle, and a bad compromise would be tantamount to abandonment; which might, in turn, lead to the collapse of Pakistan.'

[Myth of Independence by Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto]​

Its all about Pakistan.
 
Which is why we need to club "hindu" Jammu with Kashmir and c-o-c-k (not hyphenating causes the appearance of asterixes for some reason) our own ideologically secular snook at them.

For posterity.

Cheers, Doc
 
Are you referring to this:



I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.

The thread does not have to take a detour since the arguments have been hashed out several times on the threads mentioned, so lets stick to those threads.

And no, as argued by me on those threads, without a convincing counterargument by you (IMO, you may disagree) there was no condition upon Pakistan to withdraw unilaterally unless satisfied with the outcomes of negotiations.
 
Thanks Taimi. ;)

And there guys we FINALLY have it, shorn of all the righteous window dressing!

Pakistan is least bothered about Kashmir, less about Kashmiris.

Pakistan is still smarting under the pain of 1971.

And Pakistan will self destruct if it continues on its present futile course of seeking parity and vengeance.

Cheers, Doc

Its not about vengeance, that is your distorted narrative - it is merely about pointing out Indian double standards and hypocrisy when India and Indians criticize Pakistan for its actions in Kashmir, without condemning their own actions in East Pakistan.
 
Are you referring to this:



I have a feeling that this thread is about to take another detour.
What fairy tale of the UN resolutions are they telling you guys in Kashmir that Pak has to evacuate.

BOTH countries have to minimize their presence in Kashmir.

Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of demilitarization, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side of the cease-fire line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July 1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;
http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc23dec52.htm

What selective memory the Indians have... We are keeping less people, taking a big risk with India's 3 times larger force even with this minimization.
 
If the basis of your argument is who did what before whom, you would loose fair and square. First, 1947 infiltration into the sovereign state of Kashmir, and then 1965 infiltration into the sovereign state of India, all under the proxy skirt of freedom fighting™.
More hypocrisy and double standards, ignoring India's own military invasion of the 'sovereign States' of Junagadh and Hyderabad.

The 1965 infiltration of J&K cannot be considered an infiltration of the 'sovereign State of India' since the State is disputed territory and India never fulfilled the condition of plebiscite that accompanied the accession.
 
What selective memory the Indians have... We are keeping less people, taking a big risk with India's 3 times larger force even with this minimization.

It is selective quotations - in the thread I mentioned his own quotes made clear that Pakistan was under no compulsion to withdraw unilaterally, and in fact his argument ended up being reduced to one in which he was blaming Pakistan for 'intransigence' in the negotiations that led to the failure to demilitarize and therefore the failure to implement the UNSC resolutions.

The argument that Pakistan 'violated the UNSC resolutions' by not withdrawing is nothing but an Indian canard to find some justification for their own refusal to implement the UNSC resolutions.
 
More hypocrisy and double standards, ignoring India's own military invasion of the 'sovereign States' of Junagadh and Hyderabad.

The 1965 infiltration of J&K cannot be considered an infiltration of the 'sovereign State of India' since the State is disputed territory and India never fulfilled the condition of plebiscite that accompanied the accession.

What about subsequent Operation Grandslam??...Was that also legitmate?
 
O daktaar saheb, Kashmir was never about Kashmiris, not to Paksitan. Here is Bhutto's assessment for your amusement.

If a Muslim majority area can remain a part of India, then the raison d'etre of Pakistan collapses. These are the reasons why India, to continue her domination of Jammu and Kashmir, defies international opinion and violates her pledges. For the same reasons, Pakistan must continue unremittingly her struggle for the right of self-determination of this subject people. Pakistan is incomplete without Jammu and Kashmir both territorially and ideologically. Recovering them, she would recover her head and be made whole, stronger, and more viable. It would be fatal if, in sheer exhaustion or out of intimidation, Pakistan were to abandon the struggle, and a bad compromise would be tantamount to abandonment; which might, in turn, lead to the collapse of Pakistan.'

[Myth of Independence by Zulifiqar Ali Bhutto]​

Its all about Pakistan.

A political leader's rambling, perhaps for pushing a particular political agenda, cannot be taken as the the motivation or justification for the position of the State on disputes that existed long before his time in power and continue to exist after his demise.

Nothing illustrates that fact better than Jinnah's vision of Pakistan as a Muslim majority State with, in essence, secular laws, and the direction that Pakistan actually took. That point is further illustrated by the ideological direction Zia took Pakistan in, and the recent removal of the title 'President' from his name in Pakistani history.

The only thing selective quotations of statements by political leaders do is to offer more skewed justification for a distorted agenda of hate-mongering and vilification of Pakistan by people like yourselves and Vsdoc - much like the canard about 'vengeance for East Pakistan'.
 
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