Kargil Facts & Figures - 2!

[sword9]

Do you mean like the dead Indian soldiers whose bodies India plainly refused to take from the Pakistanis through the Red-Cross, right?:?:

TomCat, in another thread you wanted to know type of posts or members are demented delinquents.

Your above quoted post is a prime example of one from a demented delinquent? Never had India ever refused to accept its own dead soldiers during the 1999 Kargil war.

One can understand patriotic sentiments, but your above claim is so delusional and contrary that it has reduced your image as a poster of little or no consequence.

 

[sword9]

1-It was one of the most brilliant tactical high altitudes operations of all times.Even Indian own post war inquiry admitted that 'after all our war planning we were totally surprised'.

2-Pakistan Army captured nearly 134 posts and according to neutral observers till the time Clinton intervened, Indians had taken back about 10 of these posts.

3-Most importantly the posts that Indians recaptured were the frontal ones meaning where artillery could have direct hits and have an impact, where as remaining 110+ plus were at the rear where this decisive Indian strength was useless.

4-The role of President Clinton has not really been correctly highlightened in the kargil war.The real fact is that it was HIS personal intervention that in the end turned the tables.It seems that other geo political considerations such as Pak. support of Taliban etc. played a decisive role in ensuring U.S mega pressure on Nawaz Sharif.

5-In short, from pure military point of view it was a super move by Pakistan Army.I have checked from number of global sources and and just a fraction of NLI was hit.Their bravery at those heights was unbelievable as was the professionalism of SSG commandoes, perhaps the best high altitude fighters in the world.

6-However, the limitations were equally glaring regarding poor understanding of U.S response and other players intervention.

Gaining tactical surprise is an important factor but losing out on the gains due to poor defensive battle planning is criminal.

Op Badr was a complete waste in time, manpower, resources and most important national prestige.

Instead of trying to scrape out victories to cover deficiences it would do good to understand what went wrong, what are the solutions and who was accountable for the mess.

 

[Contrarian]

1. Of course, India wins decisively against Pakistan in every single conflict, but only in bollywood movies. Snap out please, we are not debating bollywood scenarios.
2. I guess that’s why India was threatening to open up other fronts. It’s a common strategy among the decisive winners to open up other fronts to relive pressure, right?
3. Decisive winners also finish their jobs completely and not half-assed. Enjoy::read:

'Key peak still in Pakistani occupation'
[ 7 Jun, 2004 2128hrs ISTIANS ]

CHANDIGARH: A former Indian Army officer has claimed a few strategic peaks in the Kargil sector of Jammu and Kashmir, including the crucial Point 5353, were still under occupation by Pakistani forces.

Brig. Surinder Singh, who was dismissed from service in June 2001, also claimed the Indian defence establishment had misled the country by claiming it had gained control on the peaks in Kargil, where India and Pakistan fought a brief border conflict in 1999.

Singh was sacked after being embroiled in a controversy with his superiors about alleged lapses and intelligence failures that led to Pakistan-backed intruders occupying strategic features along a 140-km stretch of the Line of Control.

He asserted he had proof that Point 5353, a hill in the Drass sector of north Kashmir, was still under Pakistani occupation.

"I have evidence of this claim including satellite images," he told reporters.

Singh said the alleged inaction of the defence and political leadership during the Kargil conflict was only the tip of the iceberg.

"The defence establishment had misled the nation about getting every intruder out of the Kargil sector. I can give proof of this to whatever committee the new government at the centre sets up," Singh said, noting he had written about the matter to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Singh said he had asked Mukherjee to order a thorough probe into the Kargil conflict and issues that were deliberately hidden by the previous coalition government led by the Bharatiya Janata Party.



:lol1:



Do you mean like the dead Indian soldiers whose bodies India plainly refused to take from the Pakistanis through the Red-Cross, right?:?:

Cringe all you want, its actually surprising that every time Pakistan loses in battle, the leaders there make it look like a victory for their own countrymen. That is completely weird. Pakistani's actually believe that they have won in the battles against India except for in 1971, where they simplycant deny the ground realities, and that Kargil was a great success and that only the US made them back out!!

Say whatever, the only thing Pakistan achieved in Kargil was surprise, they lost in everything else, and was singled out among the world as a rogue nation. They lost militarily, diplomatically, in public relations, in absolutely everything.

Btw, when did India not take its dead soldiers from PAKISTAN?? Dont post rubbish!

For gods sake Pakistan did not accept their own dead soldiers which is a proven fact and which is a huge disgrace to Musharraf or whoever was ruling at the time, there seems to be a conusion b/w NS and Musharraf!! India gave a decent burial to all the Pakistani soldiers with due respect. It is a humiliation not for Pakistani citizens but for those ruling them, Not accepting their own dead !!

Even though we won in Kargil, there havebeen countless commitees and reports examining what went wrong in Kargil, ie how could they have let this situation develop and then why it was not handled properly in the begining. The government has taken approprate measures to tackle these mentioned problems. We now know exactly what went wrong in Kargil for us, why we suffered even in the begining of the war, etc, etc. And the Army, AirForce and govt have taken adequate measures so that such a situation does not happen in the future. All the weapons now being acquired are now testimony to these things, like the 155mm guns. The IA felt that only 155 mm guns were needed and nothing less will do, even the bofors barely managed their jobs in Kargil. So they are buying them like anything now and the entire older guns which cannot be upgraded are going to be simply scrapped.

BTW if there were any peaks still held by Pakistan, the Indian Government would raise hell about it, so please, dont really take this BS to be true, or maybe it is that you like to trust crap posted everywhere in the world, hint at Adnan Gill.

I am yet to see, ANYTHING similar in Pakistan, no self-evaluation. Only boasting about how they won Kargil.

 

[dabong1]

Cringe all you want, its actually surprising that every time Pakistan loses in battle, the leaders there make it look like a victory for their own countrymen. That is completely weird. Pakistani's actually believe that they have won in the battles against India except for in 1971, where they simplycant deny the ground realities, and that Kargil was a great success and that only the US made them back out!!

What makes me cringe is that india thinks it won every war it fought against pakistan.The ground reality is that pakistan has defeated india every time.You count the 71 war as if the indians fought the whole 9 months.You only came in at the last moment.
The pakistanis had just boxed 9 rounds against the bengali's and then the indians came in at the 10th and took all the glory......You got to get you victory somehow.
It is a well known fact that if it had not been for american pressure the pakistani army would still be holding all of kargil not just the stategic mountains it was after in the first place and still has control of.

Say whatever, the only thing Pakistan achieved in Kargil was surprise, they lost in everything else, and was singled out among the world as a rogue nation. They lost militarily, diplomatically, in public relations, in absolutely everything.

What makes you think the world cares about india's opinions.You are falling for that self delusion indian belief that you are some sort of world power.Nobody thinks pakistan is a rogue country only the indians.You may believe you own propgaganda but nobody else does.The only thing pakistan lost was the nerve to fight a war on all fronts as india was ready to attack punjab.Thats what you do when you losing... you open up more fronts.India got the cheap victory stunt only once the pakistanis had been given orders to vacate the areas.....[/FONT]

Btw, when did India not take its dead soldiers from PAKISTAN?? Dont post rubbish!

For gods sake Pakistan did not accept their own dead soldiers which is a proven fact and which is a huge disgrace to Musharraf or whoever was ruling at the time, there seems to be a conusion b/w NS and Musharraf!! India gave a decent burial to all the Pakistani soldiers with due respect. It is a humiliation not for Pakistani citizens but for those ruling them, Not accepting their own dead !!

The indians at the start of kargil where handing the bodies of slain kashmiri freedom fighters dressed in pak army uniform under the glare of the media to the pakistani army to prove pakistan army's involvment.Cheap nasty tricks.
I think there was an exchange of dead bodies under the red cross after kargil where the indians refused to accept the bodies of indian soilders under the eye of the media......was it something to do with not being able to accuse pakistan of mutilating the bodies?

Even though we won in Kargil, there havebeen countless commitees and reports examining what went wrong in Kargil, ie how could they have let this situation develop and then why it was not handled properly in the begining. The government has taken approprate measures to tackle these mentioned problems. We now know exactly what went wrong in Kargil for us, why we suffered even in the begining of the war, etc, etc. And the Army, AirForce and govt have taken adequate measures so that such a situation does not happen in the future. All the weapons now being acquired are now testimony to these things, like the 155mm guns. The IA felt that only 155 mm guns were needed and nothing less will do, even the bofors barely managed their jobs in Kargil. So they are buying them like anything now and the entire older guns which cannot be upgraded are going to be simply scrapped.

Good..... buy weapons

BTW if there were any peaks still held by Pakistan, the Indian Government would raise hell about it, so please, dont really take this BS to be true, or maybe it is that you like to trust crap posted everywhere in the world, hint at Adnan Gill.

It is a fact that pakistan still controls the most strategic peaks in kargil.The entire war was nothing more then a smokescreen to take control of these peaks.Upto 95% of the land gained by pakistan during kargil was left vacant after the ceasfire and india took control under the fanfare of some sort of military victory.The 5% of kargil still under pakistan control is the bit that counts.
Please do go ahead and check who control's Point 5353 which is a hill in the Drass sector in northern Kashmir before and after kargil war.
The indian government is not going to do anything as it has told its population that it defeated pakistan in kargil.Once that one lie becomes clear then all the rubbish that india says about kargil will be exposed.

 

[TexasJohn]

Dabong.... it's hard to read the font you selected....

Here is an extremely good study that covers Kargil and just high altitude terrain warfare. Completely unprejudiced, and examines the shortcomings on both sides.

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/theses/Acosta03.pdf

Anybody interested in Kargil and oth such conflicts should read this.

 

[TomCat111]

TomCat, in another thread you wanted to know type of posts or members are demented delinquents.

Your above quoted post is a prime example of one from a demented delinquent? Never had India ever refused to accept its own dead soldiers during the 1999 Kargil war.

One can understand patriotic sentiments, but your above claim is so delusional and contrary that it has reduced your image as a poster of little or no consequence.

Your lack of knowledge, rather ignorance is least bit of my concern.....

 

[TomCat111]

Never had India ever refused to accept its own dead soldiers during the 1999 Kargil war.

Though I am tired of holding finger through arguments every time one of you suffers from selective amnesia, this time, I will make an exception. Hope it will refresh your memories little bit....

Two Indian soldiers handed over to ICRC
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ISLAMABAD, Sept 16: Pakistan on Thursday handed over two Indian soldiers, taken prisoners last month in an attack on the Pakistani positions across the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir, to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

The two Indian soldiers, Lance Naik Ram Singh No:2984373 and Sepoy Bajinder Singh No:2996593 of 3rd Rajput Battalion of 9th Indian Regiment, "were released on humanitarian grounds after ICRC certified that they were found to be in sound health," said a Foreign Office statement.

The two Indian soldiers were handed over to the ICRC officials at 9.15 p.m.

The Indian armymen were captured by the Pakistan Army during an Indian attack on Pakistani post in Shyok-Turkok Sector across the LoC in Kashmir on August 30.

"While the Government of Pakistan has been willing to release these two Indian soldiers, the Indian government has procrastinated for nearly two weeks before agreeing to take them back," the statement said.

On Tuesday last, when all the arrangements had been made to hand over the Indian soldiers to the ICRC, the Indian government insisted upon a last minute pre-condition that they should not be handed over to the ICRC in the presence of media. The handing over was, therefore, postponed.

"Pakistan has all along stressed the involvement of ICRC and international media in order to preempt the possibility of Indian propaganda of maltreatment of soldiers as had been done by India at the time of return of six bodies of Indian soldiers during the Kargil crisis."-APP

Source: DAWN WIRE SERVICE Week Ending : 18 September 1999 Issue : 05/38



PoW or dead? Mystery of the missing fourth soldier
GAURAV C. SAWANT

NEW DELHI, AUGUST 18: The Government has with much alacrity revealed the recovery of the bodies of three Indian soldiers killed in action on the heights of sub-sector Haneefuddin last year but is maintaining a mysterious silence on the missing fourth. Two other soldiers who were part of the same action were captured by the Pakistan army and subsequently returned.

Even the account of how the bodies were recovered is shrouded in mystery. While the Army officially claims that as the snow melted on the icy peaks of Turtuk, they found the three bodies, sources insist that Pakistan returned the three bodies while one soldier continues to be missing in the Pakistani-held territory.

Immediately after the Kargil conflict last year, the Army had embarked on an ambitious plan to capture dominating heights on the Line of Control (LoC). In one such operation on August 30 in sub-sector Haneefuddin, Captain Suneel Yadav and five soldiers with him crossed the LoC -- unintentionally according to the Army but what the Pakistanis say was an act of aggression -- to reach a dominating height.

A fierce gun-battle ensued and two Indian soldiers were captured by the Pakistani army. Four others, including Yadav, were declared missing by the Indian Army. ``What followed showed how callous the Indian Government was about its soldiers and barely weeks after the Kargil war,'' sources said.

Pakistan claimed it had captured two Indian soldiers and kept them as Prisoners of War (PoWs), the Indian Government refused to acknowledge it till the Pakistan army showed the two PoWs (soldiers from the IIIrd Battalion of the Rajput Regiment) on state television.

Then the Indian Government came up with the account that six soldiers had strayed across the LoC during ``routine patrolling'' and asked Pakistan to return them at the nearest border exchange post. The Pakistan army refused, saying PoWs were returned only through the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). The ministries of defence and external affairs kept passing the buck, each asking the other to get the soldiers back.

Though the Army knew that Yadav and three other soldiers with him had been killed in action (The Commanding officer of III Rajput, Colonel S.B.N. Janardanan, had written a condolence letter to the families as early as on August 30), the Army kept asking Pakistan to return the six missing soldiers.

The Pakistan army stuck to its guns and returned the two PoWs through the ICRC at the Wagah border. From here the two soldiers were whisked away to the Northern Command headquarters in Udhampur. Sources said the two soldiers also confirmed that Yadav and the soldiers with him were killed in a gun-battle.

In the last fortnight, the bodies of Captain Yadav and two other soldiers were cremated with full state honours amid the popping of flashbulbs but the Army continues to remain silent on the missing fourth soldier.

A military spokesman confirmed that one soldier of the Rajput Regiment was ``still missing'' but insisted that efforts were being made to locate him or his body. ``We have requested the Pakistan army to intimate us in case it (the body) is found across the LoC,'' he said.

 

[TomCat111]

Btw, when did India not take its dead soldiers from PAKISTAN?? Dont post rubbish!

Sweetie, please read post 22. Rest of your post is pure rubbish and wastage of time to even read...:GUNS:

 

[sword9]

Your lack of knowledge, rather ignorance is least bit of my concern

Though I am tired of holding finger through arguments every time one of you suffers from selective amnesia, this time, I will make an exception. Hope it will refresh your memories little bit....

I suggest you try understand the meaning of the word "procrastinated" and the reference of denial of hundreds of bodies of own service personel.

"While the Government of Pakistan has been willing to release these two Indian soldiers, the Indian government has procrastinated for nearly two weeks before agreeing to take them back," the statement said.
Source: DAWN WIRE SERVICE Week Ending : 18 September 1999 Issue : 05/38

Your above report is dated 18 Sept, the one posted by me below is dated 2nd September. The incident took place on 29/30 August, and the request for the bodies/ POW was made 2 days later. there was no denial.

http://listserv.indnet.org/cgi/wa.cgi?A2=ind9909&L=india-l&T=0&P=286
Pak asked to return six Indian soldiersNEW DELHI, Sept 2 (PTI)

India has requested Pakistan to return the six members of its patrol team
which have been missing since the night of August 29/30 in sub-sector
Haneefuddin in Turtuk sector of Jammu and Kashmir.

''The Indian Director General of Military Operations has asked his
Pakistani counterpart on August 31 to returm the Indian patrol team
members in case they had strayed inadvertently into Pakistani territory,``
an army spokesman said today.

The patrol team consisted of an officer and five jawans of 3 Rajput
Batallion, the spokesman said.

Pakistan claimed it had captured two Indian soldiers Lance Naik Ram Singh
(Number 2984373) and Sepoy Bajinder Singh (number 2996593) of Rajputana
Rifles on the night of Aug 29 and 30 during clashes in Shyok-Turtuk.

Chill out you are really embaressing yourself.

 

[Bull]

I suggest you try understand the meaning of the word "procrastinated" and the reference of denial of hundreds of bodies of own service personel.


Your above report is dated 18 Sept, the one posted by me below is dated 2nd September. The incident took place on 29/30 August, and the request for the bodies/ POW was made 2 days later. there was no denial.



Chill out you are really embaressing yourself.

Hey sword, seeing you around after quite sometime.

Dont sweat for thus guy,its just plain waste of time.

 

[TomCat111]

I suggest you try understand the meaning of the word "procrastinated"

I suggest you try understand the meaning of the word "context."

Your above report is dated 18 Sept, the one posted by me below is dated 2nd September. The incident took place on 29/30 August, and the request for the bodies/ POW was made 2 days later. there was no denial.

Sweetie pie, I have quoted two sources. One from DAWN and the other from ExpressIndia.com Read both of them again and this time pay attention extra attention to bold, underlined, and colored text. I hope you can read English, as you appear to be babu type. The quotes clearly give an account of lies, deceit and cover-ups by your glorious Army. What were they afraid of by letting the truth out? Obviously, they refused to take the bodies under ICRC’s supervision, because then they couldn’t have concocted the malicious propaganda about alleged mutilation.

Chill out you are really embaressing yourself.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[TomCat111]

Dont sweat for thus guy,its juts plain waste of time.

Sweetheart, stop worrying. Please wrest assured, I have no desire to waste my time with you or your embarrassed buddy. Feel free to keep him with you. For all I care, you can take him for a long drive in your Ford, hold his hand, or hug him. Just do NOT share your escapades with us. That’s all I ask for.

 

[sword9]

I suggest you try understand the meaning of the word "context."

What do you know about the word "context"? Most of your posts are actually "out of context", like the one here. You seem to be dying to paint the Indians with the same brush of "refusing to accept own troops".

Sweetie pie, I have quoted two sources. One from DAWN and the other from ExpressIndia.com Read both of them again and this time pay attention extra attention to bold, underlined, and colored text. I hope you can read English, as you appear to be babu type.

So have I posted an archaived article dated 2nd September, which does not deny acceptence of own troops, and is quite clinical in context. The articles you posted are dated much later and seem to seek a "conspiracy" of denial. Suit yourself, beauty eyes in the eyes of the beholder.

The quotes clearly give an account of lies, deceit and cover-ups by your glorious Army.

Poor you.

What were they afraid of by letting the truth out? Obviously, they refused to take the bodies under ICRC’s supervision, because then they couldn’t have concocted the malicious propaganda about alleged mutilation.

Oops you seem to be loosing it. Getting high blood pressure at such any early age?

The feeling is mutual.

I will not loose sleep over it.

 

[sword9]

Sweetheart, stop worrying. Please wrest assured, I have no desire to waste my time with you or your embarrassed buddy. Feel free to keep him with you. For all I care, you can take him for a long drive in your Ford, hold his hand, or hug him.

Nice to let us know how you spend your weekends. I guessed as much

 

[TomCat111]

What do you know about the word "context"? Most of your posts are actually "out of context", like the one here. You seem to be dying to paint the Indians with the same brush of "refusing to accept own troops".

So have I posted an archaived article dated 2nd September, which does not deny acceptence of own troops, and is quite clinical in context. The articles you posted are dated much later and seem to seek a "conspiracy" of denial. Suit yourself, beauty eyes in the eyes of the beholder.

Poor you.

Oops you seem to be loosing it. Getting high blood pressure at such any early age?

I will not loose sleep over it.

Just as expected.... high on babbling and low on substance..........

keep it up.....