JF-17 Thunder in touble ?

[PakSniper]

Well if the russians don't take India's concerns,then it is Russia which loses. India will simply switch sources as time goes on.
Now if this is seen as a major breakthrough for Pakistan,sadly that may not be the case.

Unfortunately India as one of the world largest importer of western arms would be much more powerful than one of the world's largest importer of Russian arms.

In such a case..China would be facing a far too formidable foe on the western border..just because it wanted to increase it's imports by using Russia system.

It is China and Pakistan that have source and budget constraint respectively. India may have budget constrains but not the source!

How do you people come out with these fairly tale? China is the biggest buyer of Russian arms more than India, Russia can switch and sell else where to make up the cost if it looses India, since India is moving some what towards west (even at this point) what makes you think Russia will stay loyal to Indian demands? They have their own interests as well you know, loosing India isn't going to crash the Russian arms industry. They may not have that much money, but loosing India they can open more JV's with China, since they already recieved help with J-10 from Russia (it's shows they dont care and follow where the major money is).

Also, note they are soon going to break into the ME market where, KSA and others willn't put their money all in one basket.

Now if this is seen as a major breakthrough for Pakistan,sadly that may not be the case.

If India switches sources, what makes you think Russia will listen to you, if it starts supplying Pakistan, we already seen what happened with RD-93.

 

[Awesome]

India is moving towards western arms whether Russia sells to Pakistan or not. Pakistan is comfortable with that since we know the West would be an unreliable seller. Plus the enormous amounts of catches that are tied to each and every sale is amazing.

In this case, China circumvented the Eula agreement and do you see Russians crying foul? The moods have already shifted. Common Indians have more favorable views towards the west than Russia. It's only the Russian lobby within the Indian power holders that helps them keep their paws gripped in.

Of course I repeat, India is still not going anywhere, its going to stick with Russians even if Putin himself comes to install the RD-93 on a JF-17.

 

[Keysersoze]

Of course I repeat, India is still not going anywhere, its going to stick with Russians even if Putin himself comes to install the RD-93 on a JF-17.

I am sorry but that line deserves a

 

[EagleEyes]

I think the next step should be acquiring some licensed version of Su-30MK through China. Of course there are dozens of countries who would be able to provide us with AESA for that and other avionics. I prefer western.

 

[Lilo]

So you are actually thinking Russia would ditch a big consumer like China (bigger than India, btw) over the RD-93 engines? .

You dont get it do you..?!

Its not a question of wether china "WILL" ditch russians but its a question of wether china "CAN" ditch Russians

china even if it buys arms worth billions of $$.. still has no real alternatives to russians... they HAVE to tag along with whatever conditions russians impose on those arms...russians can even sell arms to taiwan if they wish coz they know china cant do any thing about it... they know chinese will just buy more in number of wat they are selling to counter the arms they just sold to taiwan..

At best Russia would say "Ok, but don't do it again"

Ya sure but thats wat YOU would like to think...
but i dont see you backing your claims with logic anywhere

Seriously you guys have already been screwed over by the Russians and you should leave them and buy the American planes already.

Ya just because you got screwed over by the americans repeatedly in your arms deals ....you cant comfort your selves by saying that we got screwed over by Russians

...Russia AKA USSR supplied arms to us on cheap credit in 70's and 80's.... they even allowed us to pay for those arms in rupees (at that time our economy was in such a state taht i think the value of a rupee note wouldnt be equal to the value of a tissue paper of the same size)

and wasnt america loading its ships with soya beans for your country's "defence" at that time ..??

There was never an instance in our 50 year relationship when russians betrayed our trust.period.

Truth be told, Indians have come to terms with it as well. They've realized that in the future Russians would sell to both. Just like Russia won't leave the Chinese of the RD-93 issue... Indians won't leave the Russians over the RD-93 issue. Maybe, just Mayyyyyyyybe they might not go for the 126 MRCAs, but Indians have a whole lot of other things they want to buy from the Russians.

ARE you delusional ??
we'v come with terms with wat ...??
by the way i see it... you already feel that 150 JF17 's are sitting on your tarmacs with 150 russian engines in them...and taking that as a premise you are building the rest of your argument....but.... can i remind you that we are still in 2007 and jf17 has still has to enter production..

And judging from the warm reception the Russian officials got in Jan, they are probably still buying those 126 MRCAs from Russia, even after getting screwed.

Ya ..screwed..
you ARE delusional ..!

India is just... India. Not a Super Power, not an arm twister, not a world changer like it oh so often amuses itself to be. All these scenarios that Indians are playing out are just hype from a little tidbit thrown their way and the Indians hype it out of proportion.

hey hey... now did our media get to your nerves or what..?

why dont you calm down a bit so that you can make better statements unlike the ones above which reek with jealousy...??

 

[EagleEyes]

china even if it buys arms worth billions of $$.. still has no real alternatives to russians... they HAVE to tag along with whatever conditions russians impose on those arms...russians can even sell arms to taiwan if they wish coz they know china cant do any thing about it... they know chinese will just buy more in number of wat they are selling to counter the arms they just sold to taiwan..

Russia can sell arms to Taiwan? Really?? What have Taiwan purchased until now?

There was never an instance in our 50 year relationship when russians betrayed our trust.period.

When did Pakistan got its RD-93 RUSSIAN engines? Thats not included in these 50 years? Oh yes of course. There were reasons. Lets see for how long you can keep Russians in your arms.

 

[KashifAsrar]

You dont get it do you..?!

Its not a question of wether china "WILL" ditch russians but its a question of wether china "CAN" ditch Russians


Ya just because you got screwed over by the americans repeatedly in your arms deals ....you cant comfort your selves by saying that we got screwed over by Russians


and wasnt america loading its ships with soya beans for your country's "defence" at that time ..??

There was never an instance in our 50 year relationship when russians betrayed our trust.period.

That's the right answer dear!
Bravo!
Kashif

 

[Neo]

I think the next step should be acquiring some licensed version of Su-30MK through China. Of course there are dozens of countries who would be able to provide us with AESA for that and other avionics. I prefer western.

J-11B is there webby!
The chinese copy of Su-27 with reverse engeneerd Al-31FN (TVC) engine.
Once the jet is fully copied it will be exported.

 

[Keysersoze]

J-11B is there webby!
The chinese copy of Su-27 with reverse engeneerd Al-31FN (TVC) engine.
Once the jet is fully copied it will be exported.

Noooooo! Forget that nonsense! we need a good 5th gen fighter!

 

[Neo]

Chinese stealth won't fly before 2012 Keyser, add another 5-6 years before it sold to Pakistan.
J-11B could be an ideal stop-gap measure and complement J-10/JC-20 to counter Indian Su-30.

Its a good plane, with european avionics we can make it even better.

 

[Keysersoze]

Chinese stealth won't fly before 2012 Keyser, add another 5-6 years before it sold to Pakistan.
J-11B could be an ideal stop-gap measure and complement J-10/JC-20 to counter Indian Su-30.

Its a good plane, with european avionics we can make it even better.

2012 is 5 years away......during the intervening few years there will be jf-17's J-10's and F-16's. Why take a older design when you can start planning for a whole new generation of aircraft?

 

[con]

How do you people come out with these fairly tale? China is the biggest buyer of Russian arms more than India, Russia can switch and sell else where to make up the cost if it looses India, since India is moving some what towards west (even at this point) what makes you think Russia will stay loyal to Indian demands? They have their own interests as well you know, loosing India isn't going to crash the Russian arms industry. They may not have that much money, but loosing India they can open more JV's with China, since they already recieved help with J-10 from Russia (it's shows they dont care and follow where the major money is).

Also, note they are soon going to break into the ME market where, KSA and others willn't put their money all in one basket.

The question is not about China buys more than India or vise versa. As I said why the hell would Russia be bother if India buys from any other country,when it receives it's share of business from India.

Russian industry may not crash,but then they are not so stupid to loose a 1.5 billion annual customer just to let China walk off with contract breach of not re-exporting Russian system to a third country.

What if China plans to sell JF-17 to ME with Russian engines? Do you think Russians would all smiling?

Why dont you tell me what will happen when Russian refuses to approve the engine? Do you think China will walk off? They will not buy from Russian anymore?
India can walk off from Russian,they have other sources. China cant. That is the difference. Even if China buys 10 times more than India from Russia ,Chinese dont have any other options.

Chinese will steal,make under the table deals with Europeans to get advance systems,but they can never buy force multipliers in large amount as US will make sure of that.

Again it is China which does not have other options,not India. It is no fairytale!

If India switches sources, what makes you think Russia will listen to you, if it starts supplying Pakistan, we already seen what happened with RD-93.

So you think India switching source is good for Pakistan?

which is better for PAF? IAF with Migs+AA10 or JSF+Aim or Metoer?
which is better for PN?IN with Russian Ships+Russian subs+Tu's or Aegis+U214/Marlin + P8's?
which is better for PA?IA with T-90's or M1A2/Merks/Leo2A6s?

Now you tell me?

 

[Janbaz]

I think the next step should be acquiring some licensed version of Su-30MK through China. Of course there are dozens of countries who would be able to provide us with AESA for that and other avionics. I prefer western.

Why screw our beloved J-10, which can be customized!

J-11B is there webby!
The chinese copy of Su-27 with reverse engeneerd Al-31FN (TVC) engine.
Once the jet is fully copied it will be exported.

But the thing is with F-16, J-10 and JF-17 there cannot be a role for the Su-27. It is a muti role jet with same capabilities as an F-16. So just go for 5th generation jets and focus on the JXX!:toast:

Just as brother Keys has said earlier along the lines, why settle for less when one can go above and beyond what is availibe!

 

[Awesome]

See my Indian friends let me simplify things for you...
What happens when China (imagine China like John Travolta from Broken Arrow), goes like "Eula? Pfft" and supplies Pakistan anyway? What happens despite all the Russian objections, China still provides it to Pakistan?

Ooh, ooh I like to hear the answer for this one... What in your Indian minds do you think would be Russia's next move towards China for doing so?

Simplified enough?

 

[Keysersoze]

The question is not about China buys more than India or vise versa. As I said why the hell would Russia be bother if India buys from any other country,when it receives it's share of business from India.

Russian industry may not crash,but then they are not so stupid to loose a 1.5 billion annual customer just to let China walk off with contract breach of not re-exporting Russian system to a third country.

What if China plans to sell JF-17 to ME with Russian engines? Do you think Russians would all smiling?

Why dont you tell me what will happen when Russian refuses to approve the engine? Do you think China will walk off? They will not buy from Russian anymore?
India can walk off from Russian,they have other sources. China cant. That is the difference. Even if China buys 10 times more than India from Russia ,Chinese dont have any other options.

Chinese will steal,make under the table deals with Europeans to get advance systems,but they can never buy force multipliers in large amount as US will make sure of that.

Again it is China which does not have other options,not India. It is no fairytale!



So you think India switching source is good for Pakistan?

which is better for PAF? IAF with Migs+AA10 or JSF+Aim or Metoer?
which is better for PN?IN with Russian Ships+Russian subs+Tu's or Aegis+U214/Marlin + P8's?
which is better for PA?IA with T-90's or M1A2/Merks/Leo2A6s?

Now you tell me?

Look let me sum it up for you........Why would either China OR Russia allow India to dictate their foreign policy? Time for a wake up call, India just bought several billion dollars of Russian equipment.... Hmmm they could tell them to get lost and watch it all rust as the spare parts dry up.....maybe they can tell them to stuff their 5th gen project as well.........cancel all the naval vessels that have been ordered.

Hmmm I think that it is not gonna happen any time soon. Do you think that the west is gonna need India's help?
Wake up and smell the coffee......So far what weapons have you managed to prevent from being delivered?