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Jet engine lag

Sam Manekshaw

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Four years ago, when Indian aero-engineers walked into the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, they were shocked to see Chinese engineers there. The Indians had come to flight-test Kaveri, India's first indigenous jet engine. The Chinese, too, had come on a similar mission. And, the Indian engineers were worried whether the Chinese would beat them to it.

Worry was understandable, because jet-engine technology is even more exclusive than nuclear know-how. Only a few countries in the world know how to make jet engines. The market for tens of thousands of engines that power fighter planes owned by air forces across the globe is controlled by just a handful of companies—GE and Pratt & Whitney of the United States, NPO Saturn of Russia, Rolls-Royce of the UK, Snecma of France and Eurojet of Germany. The dominance of these companies is almost complete, evident from the fact that even though Rolls-Royce admitted to have paid commission to agents in dealing with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the defence ministry could not do much because if Rolls-Royce stopped supplying engines, it would affect HAL's production of Jaguar fighter bombers.

Kaveri, which was developed at the Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the Defence Research and Development Organisation, successfully completed the sub-sonic test in Moscow by flying a giant Ilyushin-76 aircraft. The Chinese test was a failure. Four years later, however, it seems the Kaveri story is going to have a sad end, while the Chinese are making steady progress with their project.

Back from Russia, lack of funds significantly slowed down Kaveri's progress. "We have shortage of funds to even run the five prototype engines which have been produced so far. It is difficult to procure fuel for the engines," says GTRE director C.P. Ramanarayanan. The Chinese story, on the other hand, turned out to be completely different. After their engineers returned with the failed engine, the Chinese government opened its purse-strings and invested more than $60 billion for developing its aerospace sector of which a significant portion was spent on the jet engine programme. China has "gone crazy for making aircraft," says a recent white paper prepared by renowned aerospace scientist Roddam Narasimha.

Flush with funds, the Chinese burnt the midnight jet-fuel and put their WS-10 turbofan engine on a few prototypes of their J-10 fighters, and flew them. "But they are still far from developing the engine for squadron service," says a GTRE scientist. "We can also fly Kaveri suboptimally, as the Chinese are doing, but we don't have test aircraft for that. We are waiting for just one old MiG-29 for testing."

Anyway, Narasimha's paper, prepared last year, had some effect on the Manmohan Singh government. When GTRE asked for half a million dollars in the budget, the babus returned the request, saying it was "suboptimal", and with the advice to ask for more. This gave them hope. "The Chinese haven't yet succeeded in finalising the engine for squadron service. We can still catch up, because we have already addressed the issues on making the engine supersonic. We needed only funds to test," says the scientist.

But now, a move by the Narendra Modi government to scrap all DRDO development programmes that face significant delays could end India's Kaveri dreams. DRDO's Director-General (Aero) K. Tamilmani has reportedly described it as a bold move, saying the agency has realised its old mistakes and is taking steps to address them.

GTRE scientists, who made the engine, disagree. Indeed, the Kaveri programme has taken long. The defence ministry recently told Parliament that the project was sanctioned in March 1989 at a cost of Rs382.8 crore, to be completed by December 1996. This was revised (in 2005) to December 2009. But GTRE scientists say similar engines produced by global manufacturers will cost almost three to four times. With Rs2,105 crore having been spent on the programme so far and with over two decades of experience in the field and the programme on the verge of successful completion, Ramanarayanan feels it would not be wise to scrap it. The lessons learnt will "go down the drain".

The fate of Kaveri will now be decided by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which has sought some clarifications from GTRE. According to GTRE scientists, Kaveri now needs to cover just the last mile. According to defence ministry estimates, India would be spending a whopping Rs3.5 lakh crore for its aircraft fleet, including the fifth generation fighter aircraft and the French Rafale combat aircraft, in the next 10 to 15 years, of which the cost of the engines would be around Rs74,500 crore. Engines for the Su-30MKI fleet would require another Rs70,000 crore. "Most of the money that we are planning to spend on these engines is likely to go to foreign countries, but if we allow programmes such as Kaveri to continue and succeed, this will help us in saving at least 30 to 40 per cent of the funds," says Ramanarayanan.

Scientists deny that India had to buy GE engines to power Tejas, India's first light combat aircraft, because of the delay in Kaveri. "Nobody in the world puts an untested engine in an untested aircraft," says a scientist. "Even if Kaveri was ready by now, we would have put some other engine in Tejas. It is always like that. The first engines are always put in proven aircraft and untested aircraft are always powered with proven engines." The first 40 LCAs are being powered by GE-404 engine whereas the DRDO has placed orders for more than 200 GE-414 engines for the LCA-MKII, which are scheduled to be ready by 2017.

There are unconfirmed reports that Kaveri is being designed also to power India's top secret unmanned combat aerial vehicle. Since India has not signed the Missile Technology Control Regime, no country would supply engines for UCAVs that fly longer than 300km. "Since the UCAV would be a lighter plane, the present power of the Kaveri engine would be enough for powering it," says a DRDO scientist. The UCAV programme, being worked on by DRDO and HAL, has been sanctioned Rs7,000 crore.

Scientists working on Kaveri say they have tackled all technical issues in making the engine supersonic. "We need to test it on a fighter such as MiG-29 or a SU-30MKI." They are confident that Kaveri has hit the home stretch. It just needs an aircraft, a few more months, some more money and little more patience to secure India's entry into the exclusive fighter jet engine club.

WITH R. PRASANNAN


Beneath the wings
GE and Pratt & Whitney of the United States and Rolls-Royce of the United Kingdom are the world's leading fighter-jet engine manufacturers. Other prominent engine makers include NPO Saturn and Klimov of Russia, Snecma of France and Eurojet Turbo GmbH based in Germany, run by a consortium of Rolls-Royce, Avio (Italy), ITP (Spain) and MTU (Germany).

Some of the leading engines and the fighters they power:


GE
The F110 family:
Powers F-15 and F-16 fighter aircraft of many countries
The F404 family: Used in the world's first stealth fighter, the F-117. Also powers Korean T-50s, Boeing F/A-18C/D Hornets, Saab Gripen multi-role fighters
The F414 family: Powers Boeing Super Hornets and Growlers, MKII version of the Tejas light combat aircraft, Saab's next generation Gripen aircraft


PRATT & WHITNEY
The F119 family:
Powers the US Air Force's F-22 Raptors
The F135 family: Used in the F-35 Lightning IIs, all of the US Air Force's F-15 Eagles and the majority of the world's F-16 Fighting Falcons
The F100 family: Powers various aircraft of 23 air forces around the world


ROLLS-ROYCE
RB199:
Tornado multi-role aircraft operated by the UK, Germany, Italy and Saudi Arabia
Adour: SEPECAT Jaguars, Mitsubishi T-2s and F-1s, BAE Systems Hawk
Spey: AMX strike aircraft


NFO SATURN
AL-21: Powers Sukhoi Su-17s, Su-24s, Sukhoi T-10s and MiG-23s
AL-31: All Su-27 derivatives and China's Chengdu J-10 multi-role fighters
AL-31F: Su-35BM and PAK FA


SNECMA
M88:
Multi-role combat aircraft Rafale from Dassault Aviation
M 53: Mirage 2000-9s
Atar: Mirage F1s and 50s


EUROJET
EJ200:
Eurofighter Typhoons


KLIMOV
RD-33 Series: MiG-35s and Mig29Ks
SMR-95 Series: Super Mirage F-1s, Super Cheetah D-2s

The Week | Jet engine lag
 
FYI, China only spend 500 millions USD in WS10 series design to make it a sucess. Money is not the main problem, its the way of doing things. Indian spend pennywise money to make the Mar probing research a success. Maybe it could enlighten you .

China install the WS10 series engine on dual-engine fighters like J11B and J15/j16, you gonna make it comparatively safe than single engine fighter. It just a matter of time to get matured. India shall take some risk in developing turbojet engine. It is not Indians are not clever, sometimes you just think about too much. You contain yourself, and also the lame organizational structure.

Now China is full self-sufficient in dual engine fighters' engine supply. The next goal is to make it more reliable to fit in the single engine fighter. If five more peaceful years given, CHina will pull it off in the end.

I think India shall always very brave to try and experiment the fighter jet technology, you need more decent ground testing infrastructure. I say India can do it if you really focus on it.

To be honest, the core engine of the WS10 series is referenced from CMF-56 engine, while we still in honeymonn with USA in 1980s. We add some features of AL31f in it, and we do some innovation and improvement. A brand new engine is emerging. I think India has 100 times better international treatment than China has, cause you are democracy and a important leverage against CHina in Asia. You guys shall take the huge oppoutunity to enhance your engine level, it depends who lead you and the whether he has sighseeing or not.
 
FYI, China only spend 500 millions USD in WS10 series design to make it a sucess. Money is not the main problem, its the way of doing things. Indian spend pennywise money to make the Mar probing research a success. Maybe it could enlighten you .

China install the WS10 series engine on dual-engine fighters like J11B and J15/j16, you gonna make it comparatively safe than single engine fighter. It just a matter of time to get matured. India shall take some risk in developing turbojet engine. It is not Indians are not clever, sometimes you just think about too much. You contain yourself, and also the lame organizational structure.

Now China is full self-sufficient in dual engine fighters' engine supply. The next goal is to make it more reliable to fit in the single engine fighter. If five more peaceful years given, CHina will pull it off in the end.

I think India shall always very brave to try and experiment the fighter jet technology, you need more decent ground testing infrastructure. I say India can do it if you really focus on it.

Money,infrastructure and Management is problem here although things are getting better right now....we need efficient organisation like ISRO for aircraft industry.
 
When i study overseas , i saw very brilliant Indian students. You guys need to strong leader to put you in order. I strongly believe you got a huge potential to exploit. I also worried how Indians gonna do with China if you guys getiing stronger enough to turn the table.

It just a matter of time India will become a developed country, i think we Chinese shall not push India into corner everytime. India shall also consider China's attention and concern. Mutual respect in very important, both nations are strong enough to protect its land. I think Modi and Xi shall brave enough to solve the border dispute in our generation, so that our childrens won't suffer from the tragedy of border conflict.
 
When i study overseas , i saw very brilliant Indian students. You guys need to strong leader to put you in order. I strongly believe you got a huge potential to exploit. I also worried how Indians gonna do with China if you guys getiing stronger enough to turn the table.

It just a matter of time India will become a developed country, i think we Chinese shall not push India into corner everytime. India shall also consider China's attention and concern. Mutual respect in very important, both nations are strong enough to protect its land. I think Modi and Xi shall brave enough to solve the border dispute in our generation, so that our childrens won't suffer from the tragedy of border conflict.

We do not dislike china. Infact its quite the opposite. Also our 'gaze' lies elsewhere. We both can cooperate to usher prosperity for both our people. This should be the aim rather than a futile attempt to 'contain' each other.
I just hope the boundary dispute is resolved in time for both our sake.
 
When i study overseas , i saw very brilliant Indian students. You guys need to strong leader to put you in order. I strongly believe you got a huge potential to exploit. I also worried how Indians gonna do with China if you guys getiing stronger enough to turn the table.

It just a matter of time India will become a developed country, i think we Chinese shall not push India into corner everytime. India shall also consider China's attention and concern. Mutual respect in very important, both nations are strong enough to protect its land. I think Modi and Xi shall brave enough to solve the border dispute in our generation, so that our childrens won't suffer from the tragedy of border conflict.
This is the most important part...China and India both are ancient civilization living peacefully side by side and sharing values of each other. Other than border conflict i don't see India or China have anything bitter between them.
I repeat " World is large enough to satisfy the ambitions of India and China "...Together we can bring the world power center to ASIA.....I strongly want the powerful Asia but before that i would like to make sure that my National Interest is not compromised.
I assure u that India is peace loving nation.
 
I sincerely hope that the decision makers in Modi govt. understands the importance of engine development for the future of the aero industry.....

We should not dump the Kaveri project, instead device the team of the project in to 2. Induct some new brain and again given them the task to develop the engine from scratch. The best proposal must be per sued as the successor of Kaveri project.
 
great post lets hope modi government gives them one more chance


Or start a completely new Engine development project,while allocating some pittance to Kaveri so it fulfills testing requirement ( not production ).


As thing stands, India could manufacture alloys able to withstand 1450°C while western companies have a knowhow of alloys able to withstand 1600°C. This allows western Engines to have better compression ratio, thus increasing their Thrust and decreasing their weight.

If India want to build a better Engine using new alloys, it has to change whole design of Kaveri to accommodate higher compression ratios. It would be better to start from scratch, as Kaveri, even when working optimally to underpowered and Heavy.Design Knowledge gained from Kaveri could be employed in new design.
 
This is the most important part...China and India both are ancient civilization living peacefully side by side and sharing values of each other. Other than border conflict i don't see India or China have anything bitter between them.
I repeat " World is large enough to satisfy the ambitions of India and China "...Together we can bring the world power center to ASIA.....I strongly want the powerful Asia but before that i would like to make sure that my National Interest is not compromised.
I assure u that India is peace loving nation.
Modi and Xi shall sit and talk, they have to tell the real thought of each other.
 
Or start a completely new Engine development project,while allocating some pittance to Kaveri so it fulfills testing requirement ( not production ).


As thing stands, India could manufacture alloys able to withstand 1450°C while western companies have a knowhow of alloys able to withstand 1600°C. This allows western Engines to have better compression ratio, thus increasing their Thrust and decreasing their weight.

If India want to build a better Engine using new alloys, it has to change whole design of Kaveri to accommodate higher compression ratios. It would be better to start from scratch, as Kaveri, even when working optimally to underpowered and Heavy.Design Knowledge gained from Kaveri could be employed in new design.
and it can also be used in UAV.
 
Or start a completely new Engine development project,while allocating some pittance to Kaveri so it fulfills testing requirement ( not production ).


As thing stands, India could manufacture alloys able to withstand 1450°C while western companies have a knowhow of alloys able to withstand 1600°C. This allows western Engines to have better compression ratio, thus increasing their Thrust and decreasing their weight.

If India want to build a better Engine using new alloys, it has to change whole design of Kaveri to accommodate higher compression ratios. It would be better to start from scratch, as Kaveri, even when working optimally to underpowered and Heavy.Design Knowledge gained from Kaveri could be employed in new design.
You don't have to scrap Kaveri project, you shall improve it. Bring in new brain to serve the purpose and emphasize on ground infrastructure building and metallurgy development.
 
Well their points are valid . We need to think out of cost effective . High tech weapon system need lots of money . Chinese spend billions which are usually kept as secret. Only god knows how much they are spending for Aircraft program . I like our Govt to give them a chance . But let it be as secret project till they come up with perfect engine . It will change entire dynamic in own capacity. Or just don't worry about kaveri fighter jet engine and buy more powerful engine with tot at any cost and upgrade them for our future requirements.

Wonder why West can do something which we can't . Leave alone the Chinese . Their half of the inovative ideas are either stolen or bought from russia and others. I don't blame them . If you can't build on ur own just buy it . Simple concept we yet to understand.

Modi and Xi shall sit and talk, they have to tell the real thought of each
My friend what is the use when ur pla intrude into our territory ? When ur Xi ping was in India and meeting our Leader ? You must first sort out the power fight with in communist party and PLA. Both talk and do differently. Which is weird for Indians.

FYI, China only spend 500 millions USD in WS10 series design to make it a sucess. Money is not the main problem, its the way of doing things. Indian spend pennywise money to make the Mar probing research a success. Maybe it could enlighten you .

China install the WS10 series engine on dual-engine fighters like J11B and J15/j16, you gonna make it comparatively safe than single engine fighter. It just a matter of time to get matured. India shall take some risk in developing turbojet engine. It is not Indians are not clever, sometimes you just think about too much. You contain yourself, and also the lame organizational structure.

Now China is full self-sufficient in dual engine fighters' engine supply. The next goal is to make it more reliable to fit in the single engine fighter. If five more peaceful years given, CHina will pull it off in the end.

I think India shall always very brave to try and experiment the fighter jet technology, you need more decent ground testing infrastructure. I say India can do it if you really focus on it.

To be honest, the core engine of the WS10 series is referenced from CMF-56 engine, while we still in honeymonn with USA in 1980s. We add some features of AL31f in it, and we do some innovation and improvement. A brand new engine is emerging. I think India has 100 times better international treatment than China has, cause you are democracy and a important leverage against CHina in Asia. You guys shall take the huge oppoutunity to enhance your engine level, it depends who lead you and the whether he has sighseeing or not.
Dude from where u got this estimation ? 500 million ? Real estimations will not out . Are you saying it just took 500m till now ? What about the repeated failure ? Cost of failure and redesigning will be very costly than ur estimation
 
Will investing in this program result in say in 10 years from now a engine at par with GE 404 or GE 414? If yes then pls spend in R&D if NO then no point doing only for learning. As we all know LCA (MK1 MK2) would be the largest number of operational numbers in fleet may b around 300+ as envisioned some weeks back as our need. Hence if we are able to mature an engine to a capability to match such a proven engine then its worth the time and money invested. or else use scientist on projects which may give value to our indigenous capability.

I believe a much better path cud have been a JV with Snecma with TOT signed for rafale deal. That way we can do much better. Use the expertise and build better and deliver results.
 

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