J-7 FS and J-7 MF, forgotten planes

[siegecrossbow]

I found it necessary to start a discussion on the J-7 FS and J-7 MP, two attempts to modernize the J-7 airframe that ultimately ended in failure. Here are some pictures of those two beauties:

J-7 FS:

J-7 MP (no actual planes were built so I have to stick with models):

I understand that the J-7 MP was originally designed for the Pakistani Airforce and was the original Super Seven. After the U.S. schism with China following 1989 the project was put on hold and it was eventually replaced by the now famous JF-17.

I think my biggest question about J-7 variants like the J-7 MP and FS is just how economical is it to upgrade other variants of J-7 to MP and FS. Since both China and Pakistan field large numbers of J-7s it may not be economical to replace all of their third generation planes with Fourth Gen. planes all at once. Perhaps upgraded J-7s could fill the gap for the time being?

 

[Donatello]

I think PAF wanted to modernise the F-7 design. It was the J-7 in China. They wanted to have something at par or at least near the level of the at that time new Mirage 2000s. But then due to sanctions on China and Pakistan western support dried up. So they then launched the JF-17 project. Though a different plane altogether, they might have learned interesting lessons to implement from the J-7 projects.

I think the Grifo radar gave a good tech boost to our F-7s.

 

[Luftwaffe]

It is very economical to replace all of them.

Requirements changes with time. Please see through JF-17/J-10-FC-20 Threads.

 

[somebozo]

I think J7 is some timeless piece of an aircraft which will be written down in history and saved in museums

 

[Safriz]

I never seen an aircraft with engine air intake right under the nose cone,or am i missing something?

 

[siegecrossbow]

I never seen an aircraft with engine air intake right under the nose cone,or am i missing something?

This concept is actually quite old. Check out this plane:

F-86D Sabre "Dog":

There is one Sabre Dog on display at my City and it took me quite a bit of research to find out what it was. Never would've guessed that it was a Sabre-mod.

 

[Donatello]

I never seen an aircraft with engine air intake right under the nose cone,or am i missing something?

They were experimental aircraft mate. That's how you find out if a particular design will help performance or not. Most of these were in the times when i guess there was little or no Computer Aided Design.

CAD was on thing that perhaps gave the West an edge over the east.

 

[Quwa]

The Sabre II was basically a joint program between China, U.S. and Pakistan to heavily modify and upgrade F-7 into a modern lightweight multi-role fighter to supplement the F-16A/Bs in PAF. For example, Sabre II was supposed to use a U.S. turbofan (GE404?), Western radar, avionics and weapon-systems (including BVR). It was supposed to have a round/solid nose and side-intakes, but keep true to F-7's maneuverability and low costs. Basically it was supposed to assume the role the Northrop F-20 didn't get a chance to back in the 1980s...which IMHO the PAF should have procured with ToT in addition to the F-16s.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The original idea was to have F-16s as the hi-end and the Sabre II (i.e. heavily upgraded F-7) as the lo-end...that said, the Sabre II was meant to be as capable (if not more ) than F-20. To that end, the Sabre II was to be equipped with a U.S. turbofan, Western radar & avionics, and multi-role.

I guess the ironic part is that the F-20 Tigershark didn't catch on as well. Talk about doomed couples...

Do you happen to know which turbofan engine was going to be installed on the J-7MF? I think if the Pakistani Airforce needed a Western engine then significant internal modifications must be made.

 

[Quwa]

I guess the ironic part is that the F-20 Tigershark didn't catch on as well. Talk about doomed couples...

Do you happen to know which turbofan engine was going to be installed on the J-7MF? I think if the Pakistani Airforce needed a Western engine then significant internal modifications must be made.

I believe the top choice was GE404...but Flight Global reported that the PW1120 was also offered.

Sure were interesting times, but Pakistan could've had MUCH worse...the Slavic Novi Avion and South African Carver were the true tragedies during those years.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I believe the top choice was GE404...but Flight Global reported that the PW1120 was also offered.

Sure were interesting times, but Pakistan could've had MUCH worse...the Slavic Novi Avion and South African CAVA were the true tragedies during those years.

I agree that Novi Avion would've been a helluva plane if it came out. It reminds me a lot of the J-10 (both appearance wise and the fact that it was a first indigenous effort at a fighter jet). I think Serbia is ordering the JF-17 and may go for the J-10 in the future.

I do think that Pakistan got the better deal after the J-7MF was axed. The FC-1, for one, is an original airframe and offered innovations such as the DSI inlet and far better upgrading potential. No matter how much you upgrade the J-7 I don't think you'll ever get a plane that could best a F-16 in a dogfight.

 

[Quwa]

I do think that Pakistan got the better deal after the J-7MF was axed. The FC-1, for one, is an original airframe and offered innovations such as the DSI inlet and far better upgrading potential. No matter how much you upgrade the J-7 I don't think you'll ever get a plane that could best a F-16 in a dogfight.

Agreed. The J-7MF Sabre II was conceptualized a decade late in my opinion, and that was probably a major reason why PAF axed it. Prior to the U.S. sanctions it was well known that Sabre II was too expensive relative to what it offered, and was put into the back burner. As for the JF-17, I think it was designed with effective physical improvements in mind if and when money is available for it. One example is increased use of composite materials, particularly in the fuselage...there is definitely room to lighten weight and improve aerodynamics. The use of AESA radar, higher thrust engine (maybe with TVC), better ECM/EW suite, HMD/S, etc, will make it a clear mainstay force-multiplier. An excellent jump from F-7s and MiG-21s...

 

[Luftwaffe]

Had it been developed and put into production it would by today accommodate GRIFO-S7/GRIFO-2000/16 radars.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I think that although neither version of J-7s were ultimately inducted they provided invaluable design experience for the CAC. You can see shades of J-10 and JF-17 in both of these planes.