Islamophobia in China and Pakistan's vow of silence

[Joe Shearer]

@waz @Joe Shearer


Are you drunk or back to troll?

What a disgusting statement! @Horus, has someone hacked your account, or have you taken leave of your senses? Is it possible that you were the author of that vulgarity?

 

[SQ8]

I think most Indians in their self-righteousness

Its ingrained. Almost like breathing for them.

I still don't get it sir.

In simpler terms, chill out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Right I'll write about this. Apart from the Chinese posters I can be pretty confident that every other poster in this thread, especially the Indian posters, with their usual "higher than the mountains" one liners have never met a Chinese Muslim in their lives. Hence rely on press reports.
During the early years from 2000, such reports were surfacing and I was quite concerned. In 2005 I went on Haj and decided to make a point of finding Chinese Muslims to ask them about all these things. During the night stay at Muzdalifah I found one guy running to the top of a high mountain and planting the Chinese flag there. Apparently this was a bit of fun that that the pilgrims indulged in i.e. who could plant their national flag first on the mountains in Muzdalifah. I went running to the foot of the mountain to get hold of this fellow and caught up with him on his way down. I gave him Salam and introduced myself and we embraced, and he gave me his name and told me he was Chinese. He was a Hui Muslim. I asked him about his camp at Mina, and he said that he will take me there tomorrow, as I told him I had some enquires to make. Tomorrow came and we went to his camp, which was very large and well equipped. It was just after the Dhur prayer and the pilgrims were about to have lunch and they sat me down. Looking around the composition of the group, the group was overwhelming Hui, with a few Ughiurs. I was told to address my questions to the camp leaders who spoke English, they were the elders and not anything to do with the government. I asked them about how their lives were in China and they laughed. They said they led fantastic lives and China was their motherland. I then questioned them about the fasting issue, Hijab, beards and so forth. This made me look daft considering the bulk of them had beards and they said there was no such restriction.
After this I raised the topic of Xinjiang region and their faces became more serious. The Hui said it was an ethnic struggle and nothing to do with faith, at this point the few Ughiurs spoke up (through the elders interpreting). Several of them stated they hated China and it was brutal and oppressive, the others shook their heads and said that if you keep your nose clean you have nothing to fear. The anti-Chinese Ughiurs spoke up again and said that the Hui are ethnically like the Han and so their answers didn't really represent their struggle, the elders stepped in and said that they were all brothers and the debate died down. I enjoyed a lovely meal with them, hugged them and prayed for their success.

Is the clampdown "Islamaphobic" no it's not. It is to do with ethnicity, yes it is. Are the lines blurred when it comes to faith and ethnicity, yes they are. Could we see some officials being zealots and coming to conclusions that beards = militants, that can happen. Are Chinese Muslims patriotic, very much so.

Thank you for bringing a semblance of dignity back to this discussion. I am really sorry that this thread exists; two respected moderators/ administrators have shown themselves in a very poor light during the earlier exchanges, and have permanently compromised the respect they enjoyed.

Sad days.

Its ingrained. Almost like breathing for them.



In simpler terms, chill out.

As you know, the bulk of my posts on PDF have been directed to correcting the egregious posts of other Indians. But the vulgarity I saw earlier, and the utterly childish behaviour on later posts, really comes as a shock to me. I agree about the set attitudes of some Indians; that in no way justifies what I read - which, incidentally,considering its utterly low levels of decorum and decency in discussion, I deeply regret I read.

 

[TheTruth]

Bro, Can you read?

You're comparing China settling territories that have been populated in most parts by Han for over 2,000 years to flooding AP with foreigners?

@Joe Shearer appreciate the civility, I'll try to keep it in check since there are more intelligent people to actually engage with now.

 

[SQ8]

One has got to admire the gumption of certain Indian members here, as if whining about defending their country on a Pakistan forum that gave them online rights they have never dreamed of providing on their own sites to us will make any difference. But therein lies the difference and the rather clear demonstration of how hypocrisy gets ingrained within mindsets.

As for the topic itself, China is not unique in its Islamophobia nor has Pakistan at any point demonstrated its willingness to protest against such acts. If diplomacy was so "principled" a subject then the world would be a very righteous place indeed. But that is not the case as much as the self righteous would like the world to believe about their nation as much as they do this amongst themselves regarding their pokes at the Chinese-Pakistan relation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You're comparing China settling territories that have been populated in most parts by Han for over 2,000 years to flooding AP with foreigners?

@Joe Shearer appreciate the civility, I'll try to keep it in check since there are more intelligent people to actually engage with now.

Thank you, but I emphatically will not participate in this thread. Nothing to do with your very kind comment, but the discussion is of a degraded and vulgar nature that I really wish to have nothing to do with (now here I go splitting my participles - shows how angry I am).

For all on the thread, who might, for whatever reason, wish to continue: your own self-respect and sense of dignity deserves better.

 

[SQ8]

As you know, the bulk of my posts on PDF have been directed to correcting the egregious posts of other Indians. But the vulgarity I saw earlier, and the utterly childish behaviour on later posts, really comes as a shock to me. I agree about the set attitudes of some Indians; that in no way justifies what I read - which, incidentally,considering its utterly low levels of decorum and decency in discussion, I deeply regret I read.

Good luck at that, I gave up on my countrymen a long time back. Regardless, it only serves as an example of increased vile hatred that has spawned up since the internet or rather social media took off. I've come to enjoy that mindset now, stroking it, poking it, seeing it explode on and off and imaging the beating that user's keyboard may be taking; clearly I've become sadistic in regard to interactions on PDF.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good luck at that, I gave up on my countrymen a long time back. Regardless, it only serves as an example of increased vile hatred that has spawned up since the internet or rather social media took off. I've come to enjoy that mindset now, stroking it, poking it, seeing it explode on and off and imaging the beating that user's keyboard may be taking; clearly I've become sadistic in regard to interactions on PDF.

Sadly, you probably have the right of it.

I must admit being driven to tears by some sordid incidents that occur in real life, where teachers so clearly abhor and despise their students that they are able to run them down in public, mark their work according to their personal likes and dislikes and get vindictive with individuals. These are bright young men and women, and the way some of my fellow faculty members behave fills me with horror. This happens on a daily basis, particularly as we are trying to place the first batch to qualify from this programme. So I have voluntarily taken on the placement task, which is quite easy once one brings honesty and integrity to it, and removes the big talk, the tall claims and the tearful appeals to upset all the rules to accommodate one sectional interest or the other.

I used to get some relief coming into PDF and discussing abstractions and theoretical concepts in conditions that deny oxygen to the rude, vulgar and stupid. After another thread like this, notwithstanding your clear-eyed and disillusioned analysis of the Internet reality - masterly, by the way - I do not think I will have the heart to continue. It seems too much like the real world.

 

[SQ8]

I used to get some relief coming into PDF and discussing abstractions and theoretical concepts in conditions that deny oxygen to the rude, vulgar and stupid. After another thread like this, notwithstanding your clear-eyed and disillusioned analysis of the Internet reality - masterly, by the way - I do not think I will have the heart to continue. It seems too much like the real world.

Well, you have a lot more patience than I have but I look at coming back here from the perspective of having good discussions with those that matter. Unlike real life the opinions here rarely effect your day to day activities or even your income, to repeat what I told another member regarding posts here in a not so flattering analogy: what you read and say here should be as significant as your last burp; if it was one that provided relief then you'll be happy about it, if it was one that was a little annoying on its way out.. you'll still not really care for or remember it a few seconds after it was over.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, you have a lot more patience than I have but I look at coming back here from the perspective of having good discussions with those that matter. Unlike real life the opinions here rarely effect your day to day activities or even your income, to repeat what I told another member regarding posts here in a not so flattering analogy: what you read and say here should be as significant as your last burp; if it was one that provided relief then you'll be happy about it, if it was one that was a little annoying on its way out.. you'll still not really care for or remember it a few seconds after it was over.

LOL.

Thank you for introducing a note of sanity and expelling the overwrought feelings.

 

[SQ8]

LOL.

Thank you for introducing a note of sanity and expelling the overwrought feelings.

Sanity prevails among those that choose it huzoor. In reality I have been utterly disheartened by my countrymen and their attitude, so much so that I thanked the almighty from the depth of my heart as I stepped out of this country for a new home elsewhere recently; but one cannot stop the heart aching for one's own.. even as the realization of the futility of it all pretty much takes over all hope.

Interesting thing about the topic; the Chinese have been much more ruthless( as the soviets were with their central Asian republics) in curbing any ideals of religious symbolism that is associated with dissent. However, much like the soviets I have a feeling that it might backfire and only give what is ethnic strife greater motivation in the form of religion. A close relative took a trip in the early 90s to Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Kazakhistan( on board a former aeroflot jet where the pilots let him make a cell phone call at 33000 on their own phones and then let him fly the plane). The condtions narrated by the Muslims there of Soviet times mirror those measures being undertaken by the Chinese; although they were much severe to what the Chinese have only begun.

 

[Butchcassidy]

Right I'll write about this. Apart from the Chinese posters I can be pretty confident that every other poster in this thread, especially the Indian posters, with their usual "higher than the mountains" one liners have never met a Chinese Muslim in their lives. Hence rely on press reports.
During the early years from 2000, such reports were surfacing and I was quite concerned. In 2005 I went on Haj and decided to make a point of finding Chinese Muslims to ask them about all these things. During the night stay at Muzdalifah I found one guy running to the top of a high mountain and planting the Chinese flag there. Apparently this was a bit of fun that that the pilgrims indulged in i.e. who could plant their national flag first on the mountains in Muzdalifah. I went running to the foot of the mountain to get hold of this fellow and caught up with him on his way down. I gave him Salam and introduced myself and we embraced, and he gave me his name and told me he was Chinese. He was a Hui Muslim. I asked him about his camp at Mina, and he said that he will take me there tomorrow, as I told him I had some enquires to make. Tomorrow came and we went to his camp, which was very large and well equipped. It was just after the Dhur prayer and the pilgrims were about to have lunch and they sat me down. Looking around the composition of the group, the group was overwhelming Hui, with a few Ughiurs. I was told to address my questions to the camp leaders who spoke English, they were the elders and not anything to do with the government. I asked them about how their lives were in China and they laughed. They said they led fantastic lives and China was their motherland. I then questioned them about the fasting issue, Hijab, beards and so forth. This made me look daft considering the bulk of them had beards and they said there was no such restriction.
After this I raised the topic of Xinjiang region and their faces became more serious. The Hui said it was an ethnic struggle and nothing to do with faith, at this point the few Ughiurs spoke up (through the elders interpreting). Several of them stated they hated China and it was brutal and oppressive, the others shook their heads and said that if you keep your nose clean you have nothing to fear. The anti-Chinese Ughiurs spoke up again and said that the Hui are ethnically like the Han and so their answers didn't really represent their struggle, the elders stepped in and said that they were all brothers and the debate died down. I enjoyed a lovely meal with them, hugged them and prayed for their success.

Is the clampdown "Islamaphobic" no it's not. It is to do with ethnicity, yes it is. Are the lines blurred when it comes to faith and ethnicity, yes they are. Could we see some officials being zealots and coming to conclusions that beards = militants, that can happen. Are Chinese Muslims patriotic, very much so.

I have actually met one, he didnt have good things to say about the han but had no problem with the communist party.

 

[sicsheep]

Right I'll write about this. Apart from the Chinese posters I can be pretty confident that every other poster in this thread, especially the Indian posters, with their usual "higher than the mountains" one liners have never met a Chinese Muslim in their lives. Hence rely on press reports.
During the early years from 2000, such reports were surfacing and I was quite concerned. In 2005 I went on Haj and decided to make a point of finding Chinese Muslims to ask them about all these things. During the night stay at Muzdalifah I found one guy running to the top of a high mountain and planting the Chinese flag there. Apparently this was a bit of fun that that the pilgrims indulged in i.e. who could plant their national flag first on the mountains in Muzdalifah. I went running to the foot of the mountain to get hold of this fellow and caught up with him on his way down. I gave him Salam and introduced myself and we embraced, and he gave me his name and told me he was Chinese. He was a Hui Muslim. I asked him about his camp at Mina, and he said that he will take me there tomorrow, as I told him I had some enquires to make. Tomorrow came and we went to his camp, which was very large and well equipped. It was just after the Dhur prayer and the pilgrims were about to have lunch and they sat me down. Looking around the composition of the group, the group was overwhelming Hui, with a few Ughiurs. I was told to address my questions to the camp leaders who spoke English, they were the elders and not anything to do with the government. I asked them about how their lives were in China and they laughed. They said they led fantastic lives and China was their motherland. I then questioned them about the fasting issue, Hijab, beards and so forth. This made me look daft considering the bulk of them had beards and they said there was no such restriction.
After this I raised the topic of Xinjiang region and their faces became more serious. The Hui said it was an ethnic struggle and nothing to do with faith, at this point the few Ughiurs spoke up (through the elders interpreting). Several of them stated they hated China and it was brutal and oppressive, the others shook their heads and said that if you keep your nose clean you have nothing to fear. The anti-Chinese Ughiurs spoke up again and said that the Hui are ethnically like the Han and so their answers didn't really represent their struggle, the elders stepped in and said that they were all brothers and the debate died down. I enjoyed a lovely meal with them, hugged them and prayed for their success.

Is the clampdown "Islamaphobic" no it's not. It is to do with ethnicity, yes it is. Are the lines blurred when it comes to faith and ethnicity, yes they are. Could we see some officials being zealots and coming to conclusions that beards = militants, that can happen. Are Chinese Muslims patriotic, very much so.

This is so true, there are some discrimination against the uyghurs in China because of some events in recent years, but it doesn't have anything have to do with religion, most pick-pockets in major Chinese cities have been uyghurs for the past 20 years, but not until they started chopping up people with knifes, we started to crack down.

we have nothing but respect for Muslims, one example is all major Chinese universities have Hajal food option, some even have a completely different cafeteria, and they are popular, many many Han student enjoy going there.

No Muslim is prosecuted because of his religion
No Muslim is beat up because of his religion
Anti -Muslim is not a word in China

the Uyghur youth is troubled, we need to do something for them so they don't get used by the extremists.

Watch this trailer of award winning documentary THE TRAIL FROM XINJIANG.
The Trail From Xinjiang Dongnan Chen/陈东楠/China (36... - Hot Springs Documentary Film Festival 2014

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

forget pakistani govt, ordinary pakistanis are scared to voice their opinion, even on pdf... dont want to hurt chinese sentiment.. the slavery runs deep.
palestine of course is completely different.

indian talking about deep rooted slavery.....it doesnt get much better than this

We don't regret the breakup either. Frankly looking at the level of sectarianism in Islam ,I am happy that Majority muslim west Punjab and its adjacents left us. IF you were with us, goodness gracious.

But now ,we have shias of Pakistan singing the indian national anthem on Pak independence day. What more could be a bigger insult than this to Pakistan lol.

Every religion has fringe groups who exploit sectarian differences. Christianity was not different. Judaism you have liberal vs. orthodox. Hell -- look at india the only country with a caste system where girls get raped and hung from trees just b/c of their caste.

as for your last point - good luck finding any Pakistani singing your "national" anthem.....the word "indian" is more derogatory than the word "bastard"

 

[Joe Shearer]

indian talking about deep rooted slavery.....it doesnt get much better than this



Every religion has fringe groups who exploit sectarian differences. Christianity was not different. Judaism you have liberal vs. orthodox. Hell -- look at india the only country with a caste system where girls get raped and hung from trees just b/c of their caste.

as for your last point - good luck finding any Pakistani singing your "national" anthem.....the word "indian" is more derogatory than the word "bastard"

Thus endeth the first lesson.