Islamic Eschatology - Strategic importance!

[Azadkashmir]

lolz yh i heard that there will be muslim in russia army plus they breed more. imagine going to russia joining the military and get medals and recognition. what about Shah Nimatullah propehcy ? america ? england? versus russia.


check this out

The first prediction is about Nadir Shah’s attack of Delhi. He said: Nadir Shah would emerge from Iran and would snatch the Indian empire. He would callously use his sword to assassinate the people of Delhi.About the Mughals he said: You (who are reading my prophecies) will not find Mughals anywhere after 300 years.

About the arrival of East India Company in the Subcontinent, he said:Rajas and Maharajas would turn careless. For most of the time they would remain drunk and addicted to opium. At that time the British/Christians would land in India disguised as traders and businessmen. About the British rule in India he predicted:My dears! Understand it very clearly that they would rule India for 100 years at least.(Please note that the Britishers stay in India was for 200 years, however, they ruled only for 100 years. When Lord Curzon, the then Viceroy of India came to know about Hazrat Shah Naimat’s prophecies, he put a ban on their publishing and making them public).

He predicts a war between Russian and Japan. Japan will prevail.

Two persons, both named “Ahmed” will do corrupted tasfeer of Quran, and deviate peole. [could be referring to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyani and Pervez Ahmed]

While talking about the First World War, Shah Naimat predicts:For four years a great war would be fought in the West in which E(England) would score an unfair victory over G(Germany).I would like to clarify that Shah Naimat used the Persian alphabets Alif for Inglistan (England) and Jeem for Germany. The interesting point to note is that this war was fought in the West (Europe) for four years (1914-1918).

While predicting more about First World War, he even gave the death figures. Shah Naimat said:It would be a great world war. There would be a great bloodshed and about 13.1 million people would be killed.

Earthquake in Japan, 1/4 of Japan destroyed. [Happened in 1923]

He prophesised about the Second World War also and said:The Second World War would start 21 years after the First World War and it would be more violent, lethal, destructive and ruinous then the first one. People who are interested in military history knows it very well that the Second World War (1939-1945) started exactly 21 years after the First World War.

While mentioning the weapons he said:The scientists of that era would make very deadly and fatal weapons which could measure energy and power and would bring mass destruction to the fighting forces (atomic bomb).

Prediciton of T.V and Telephones.

Then Wali says that British will leave the subcontinent and there will be a lot of bloodshed.

Wali said,It would be evident to the whole world that India would be clearly divided into two parts.Sikhs will slaughter the Muslims. [happened during the partition]. Due to hypocrisy and cheating there would be a lot of tragedies, massacres and carnage, Shah Sahib while referring to undemocratic governments in this region said,India would be ruled by rulers who would not be legitimate to do so. They would change the official rules and set of laws just like that. Law and order would scarcely prevail.

The followers of Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon him) would indulge in disgraceful criminal acts and immoral and indecent conduct.His views about religious leaders are not very encouraging. He saidThe muftis of that era would behave irresponsibly. They would issue fatwas (religious decrees) without any reason. (doesn’t it sound like Fatwas of Mulana Sufi Mohammed in Swat) but when it would come to speak the truth about the religion, they would start making despicable and lame excuses. He further said,The Islamic teachings would be like a blown out candle. No one would care about them. Scholars would be forcefully relegated to the lowest pedestals and the uneducated and amateurish would turn up as intellectuals and scholars.

His following few predictions about wars in the region are quite obvious. Naimat Shah said,Suddenly, the Muslims would face a quite jolting restlessness. They would fight a daring war with kafirs (non-Muslims) of the region. After a 17-day war the Almighty would bless the Muslims with a victory. They would earn this triumph after fighting a bloody war, daringly laying down their lives and rendering a lot of sacrifices. A Hindu leader would represent his country in another atheist country, where he would die while in his sleep.

(This refers to 1965 War. Lal Bahadur Shastri died of a heart attack in Tashkent, an atheist city of athiest Soviet Union.)

The people of the Muslim part of the Subcontinent would dethrone their ameer (President) and from then onwards they would earn a great humiliation. ( Khwaja Nazimuddin’s removal). After that there would be a great rage, calamity and chastisement. The punisher (Allah) would sentence those who would deserve it. Allah would issue a mass killing command. The eastern part of the country would tragically fall due to the deceitfulness of pretenders. The people of the western part would mourn over it. A big city of the eastern part would become a place of butchery and bloodshed. A mass killing would take place there and people would be slaughtered freely without any fear. A Muslim leader, in fact, would be an abettor of the kafirs and would lend them full support through his treachery. (The accursed Mujiburahman who chose his place in Hell among the Kuffars).

The person whose name would start with Gaaf (Persian alphabet having G as an alternative in English) and would contain six letters (maybe Gandhi) would remain victorious in this war due to his impiety and wickedness (Indira Gandhi).

Shah Sahib said:The Muslims of the western portion (West Pakistan) would have the blessings of Allah. The most responsible leaders, skilled scientists and highly professional and dedicated military experts would be available to them. All the Muslim countries would be looking towards them. Muslims from Turkey, Arabia, Iran and the Middle East would turn up with remarkable Ummah spirit to support them and the area of Chitral, Nanga Parbat, Gilgit, China and Tibet would become the main battlefield.

Hazrat Naimat Shah further said:The people of Kabul would also come out to kill kafirs (non-Muslims) who would run around from pillar to post and would make petty and paltry excuses to save their lives. They would literally beg the Muslims for their lives. The frontier would quiver and quake with the foot-beats of ghazis and mujahids of the frontier who would suddenly emerge out of nowhere. This event would take place after Eid-ul-Azha and the next Eid ul Fitr.

Wali said:�River Attock (Kabul) would be filled thrice, with the blood of kafirs, during that period. The Muslims would capture the whole Punjab (including Lahore city), Kashmir, the land situated between River Ganges and Yamuna (Uttar Pradesh province) and the city of Bijnaur. This war would remain among the human beings for good about six months and ultimately, God willing, the Muslims would be victorious. All the enemies and the ill-wishers of Islam would be killed and the whole India would be clean of Hinduism and Hindu traditions. Shah Naimat said:Suddenly there would be a great roar. It would be a catastrophic earthquake like the doomsday. It would cause great devastation and disruption in Sindh and Hind (India).

While predicting another bloody war he said:One of the two alifs (America and England (Inglistan) I have mentioned earlier, would be totally destroyed. Russia would attack the western alif (maybe England). Russia would also kneel down to China’s wrath, rage and fury and would be destroyed. However, to live in the world would beg China for immunity. Later on, one of the jeems (either Germany or Japan) would make an alliance with Russia against either of the alifs (America or England). Most lethal and explosive weapons would be used to an extent that the alif (America or England) would be totally wiped out from the world map and its name would remain merely in the history books. This would be a punishment for them from the Almighty and the generations would remember them as the iniquitous.

Islam would dominate India for at least forty years until Dajjal would emerge from the city of Esfahan. There would be a lot of sedition, disturbance, violence and war in the region. Khorasan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq would not be an exception. The war would devastate and desolate these countries as well until the Best Year as described by the Holy Quran would come. Imam Mehdi would attain prominence. He would appear during the Hajj days and suddenly he would become famous the world over. In my opinion, Imam Mehdi would appear before Dajjal’s appearance.

The Wali further predictsajjal’s forces would be in Esfahan and his army would be consisted of Jews and Christians and I am clearly seeing it. I can also see a dust storm rising up from Kufa. Jesus Christ would also descend from the heavens. I can see thousands of riders accompanying the Christ and finally Jesus, the son of Mary, would kill Dajjal with his own sword. Look Naimat Shah! Stop and do not disclose the secrets of Allah. I am predicting these events in the Islamic year 548 Hijri.Allah knows best.

 

[TMA]

Orya Maqbool Jan Mentioned That 45% Of The Russian Army Is Muslim Similarly Way Back In 2010 and 2008
Different Articles Predicted That Russia Might Soon Become Muslim Majority and Half Of The Russian Army Might Become Muslim

https://defence.pk/threads/russian-army-to-become-a-muslim-majority-army-by-2015-2020.18530/

http://www.d-intl.com/2013/10/22/our-next-horror-scenario-a-muslim-russia-armed-to-the-teeth/


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/20/pipes-muslim-russia/

I don't know how reliable this is. I mean Daniel Pipes is not intellectually honest. Are there any official statistics from the Russian Federation?

Currently what Muslim countries should focus on is national consciousness and development in national stage. On this forum i've repeatedly underlined the importance of islamic calvinism, how it progresses societies, if you want an example of this look up Turkey and anatolian tigers, and their place in Turkey's rising economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Tigers
http://www.globalinvestormagazine.com/Article/3374077/Rise-of-the-Anatolian-Tigers.html
http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...-turkeys-silent-revolution/article3364873.ece

In short the recent (last couple decades) huge economic success occured simoultanously with sunni values that we hold dear in Turkey: Discipline, honesty, punctuality and being strenuous in your job.

This is just the economic aspect. I hope people know Max Weber's hugely influential thesis on the protestant ethic and capitalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism
In the book, Weber wrote that capitalism in Northern Europe evolved when the Protestant (particularly Calvinist) ethic influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises and engaging in trade and the accumulation of wealth for investment. In other words, the Protestant work ethic was an important force behind the unplanned and uncoordinated emergence of modern capitalism.

Another essential aspect is how religion itself is viewed and operated by the state. On this i wrote a segment on PDF many years ago. https://defence.pk/threads/islamic-and-western-thought-in-turkey-a-problem-yet-not-solved.163606

If you are interested in societal development of Muslim societies, these are just a start. I recommend that thread, even though i was in my teenage years back then and my English hadn't fully developed, due to it being my third language.

I can't fully see how relevant eschatology is, trying to dicipher the future is a waste of energy. Trying to build a better national consciousness and society is where the focus should be directed towards, especially for muslims

Eschatology will help you to better build a national consciousness & society by allowing one to anticipate the historical process. For example a better understanding of eschatology will help nations to choose their allies i.e. not NATO!

 

[TMA]

 

[Solomon2]

I don't know how reliable this is. I mean Daniel Pipes is not intellectually honest.

Never heard anyone say that before. Proofs? References?

Eschatology will help you to better build a national consciousness & society by allowing one to anticipate the historical process. For example a better understanding of eschatology will help nations to choose their allies i.e. not NATO!

Do you think al-Qaeda or the Taliban are better allies instead? Does their vision and pursuit of the end-times match your desires?

 

[TMA]

Never heard anyone say that before. Proofs? References?

Do you think al-Qaeda or the Taliban are better allies instead? Does their vision and pursuit of the end-times match your desires?

The Russian Federation!

 

[Solomon2]

The Russian Federation!

To turn Pakistan into another Syria?

 

[Hamza913]

The Russian Federation!

They are FAR worse than NATO. Whilst I don't appreciate Western military actions, I do feel some sympathy for Western troops. Russian troops on the other hand? They can have acid poured on them and I still wouldn't be satisfied.

 

[Sparkle229]

lolz yh i heard that there will be muslim in russia army plus they breed more. imagine going to russia joining the military and get medals and recognition. what about Shah Nimatullah propehcy ? america ? england? versus russia.


check this out

The first prediction is about Nadir Shah’s attack of Delhi. He said: Nadir Shah would emerge from Iran and would snatch the Indian empire. He would callously use his sword to assassinate the people of Delhi.About the Mughals he said: You (who are reading my prophecies) will not find Mughals anywhere after 300 years.

About the arrival of East India Company in the Subcontinent, he said:Rajas and Maharajas would turn careless. For most of the time they would remain drunk and addicted to opium. At that time the British/Christians would land in India disguised as traders and businessmen. About the British rule in India he predicted:My dears! Understand it very clearly that they would rule India for 100 years at least.(Please note that the Britishers stay in India was for 200 years, however, they ruled only for 100 years. When Lord Curzon, the then Viceroy of India came to know about Hazrat Shah Naimat’s prophecies, he put a ban on their publishing and making them public).

He predicts a war between Russian and Japan. Japan will prevail.

Two persons, both named “Ahmed” will do corrupted tasfeer of Quran, and deviate peole. [could be referring to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyani and Pervez Ahmed]

While talking about the First World War, Shah Naimat predicts:For four years a great war would be fought in the West in which E(England) would score an unfair victory over G(Germany).I would like to clarify that Shah Naimat used the Persian alphabets Alif for Inglistan (England) and Jeem for Germany. The interesting point to note is that this war was fought in the West (Europe) for four years (1914-1918).

While predicting more about First World War, he even gave the death figures. Shah Naimat said:It would be a great world war. There would be a great bloodshed and about 13.1 million people would be killed.

Earthquake in Japan, 1/4 of Japan destroyed. [Happened in 1923]

He prophesised about the Second World War also and said:The Second World War would start 21 years after the First World War and it would be more violent, lethal, destructive and ruinous then the first one. People who are interested in military history knows it very well that the Second World War (1939-1945) started exactly 21 years after the First World War.

While mentioning the weapons he said:The scientists of that era would make very deadly and fatal weapons which could measure energy and power and would bring mass destruction to the fighting forces (atomic bomb).

Prediciton of T.V and Telephones.

Then Wali says that British will leave the subcontinent and there will be a lot of bloodshed.

Wali said,It would be evident to the whole world that India would be clearly divided into two parts.Sikhs will slaughter the Muslims. [happened during the partition]. Due to hypocrisy and cheating there would be a lot of tragedies, massacres and carnage, Shah Sahib while referring to undemocratic governments in this region said,India would be ruled by rulers who would not be legitimate to do so. They would change the official rules and set of laws just like that. Law and order would scarcely prevail.

The followers of Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon him) would indulge in disgraceful criminal acts and immoral and indecent conduct.His views about religious leaders are not very encouraging. He saidThe muftis of that era would behave irresponsibly. They would issue fatwas (religious decrees) without any reason. (doesn’t it sound like Fatwas of Mulana Sufi Mohammed in Swat) but when it would come to speak the truth about the religion, they would start making despicable and lame excuses. He further said,The Islamic teachings would be like a blown out candle. No one would care about them. Scholars would be forcefully relegated to the lowest pedestals and the uneducated and amateurish would turn up as intellectuals and scholars.

His following few predictions about wars in the region are quite obvious. Naimat Shah said,Suddenly, the Muslims would face a quite jolting restlessness. They would fight a daring war with kafirs (non-Muslims) of the region. After a 17-day war the Almighty would bless the Muslims with a victory. They would earn this triumph after fighting a bloody war, daringly laying down their lives and rendering a lot of sacrifices. A Hindu leader would represent his country in another atheist country, where he would die while in his sleep.

(This refers to 1965 War. Lal Bahadur Shastri died of a heart attack in Tashkent, an atheist city of athiest Soviet Union.)

The people of the Muslim part of the Subcontinent would dethrone their ameer (President) and from then onwards they would earn a great humiliation. ( Khwaja Nazimuddin’s removal). After that there would be a great rage, calamity and chastisement. The punisher (Allah) would sentence those who would deserve it. Allah would issue a mass killing command. The eastern part of the country would tragically fall due to the deceitfulness of pretenders. The people of the western part would mourn over it. A big city of the eastern part would become a place of butchery and bloodshed. A mass killing would take place there and people would be slaughtered freely without any fear. A Muslim leader, in fact, would be an abettor of the kafirs and would lend them full support through his treachery. (The accursed Mujiburahman who chose his place in Hell among the Kuffars).

The person whose name would start with Gaaf (Persian alphabet having G as an alternative in English) and would contain six letters (maybe Gandhi) would remain victorious in this war due to his impiety and wickedness (Indira Gandhi).

Shah Sahib said:The Muslims of the western portion (West Pakistan) would have the blessings of Allah. The most responsible leaders, skilled scientists and highly professional and dedicated military experts would be available to them. All the Muslim countries would be looking towards them. Muslims from Turkey, Arabia, Iran and the Middle East would turn up with remarkable Ummah spirit to support them and the area of Chitral, Nanga Parbat, Gilgit, China and Tibet would become the main battlefield.

Hazrat Naimat Shah further said:The people of Kabul would also come out to kill kafirs (non-Muslims) who would run around from pillar to post and would make petty and paltry excuses to save their lives. They would literally beg the Muslims for their lives. The frontier would quiver and quake with the foot-beats of ghazis and mujahids of the frontier who would suddenly emerge out of nowhere. This event would take place after Eid-ul-Azha and the next Eid ul Fitr.

Wali said:�River Attock (Kabul) would be filled thrice, with the blood of kafirs, during that period. The Muslims would capture the whole Punjab (including Lahore city), Kashmir, the land situated between River Ganges and Yamuna (Uttar Pradesh province) and the city of Bijnaur. This war would remain among the human beings for good about six months and ultimately, God willing, the Muslims would be victorious. All the enemies and the ill-wishers of Islam would be killed and the whole India would be clean of Hinduism and Hindu traditions. Shah Naimat said:Suddenly there would be a great roar. It would be a catastrophic earthquake like the doomsday. It would cause great devastation and disruption in Sindh and Hind (India).

While predicting another bloody war he said:One of the two alifs (America and England (Inglistan) I have mentioned earlier, would be totally destroyed. Russia would attack the western alif (maybe England). Russia would also kneel down to China’s wrath, rage and fury and would be destroyed. However, to live in the world would beg China for immunity. Later on, one of the jeems (either Germany or Japan) would make an alliance with Russia against either of the alifs (America or England). Most lethal and explosive weapons would be used to an extent that the alif (America or England) would be totally wiped out from the world map and its name would remain merely in the history books. This would be a punishment for them from the Almighty and the generations would remember them as the iniquitous.

Islam would dominate India for at least forty years until Dajjal would emerge from the city of Esfahan. There would be a lot of sedition, disturbance, violence and war in the region. Khorasan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq would not be an exception. The war would devastate and desolate these countries as well until the Best Year as described by the Holy Quran would come. Imam Mehdi would attain prominence. He would appear during the Hajj days and suddenly he would become famous the world over. In my opinion, Imam Mehdi would appear before Dajjal’s appearance.

The Wali further predictsajjal’s forces would be in Esfahan and his army would be consisted of Jews and Christians and I am clearly seeing it. I can also see a dust storm rising up from Kufa. Jesus Christ would also descend from the heavens. I can see thousands of riders accompanying the Christ and finally Jesus, the son of Mary, would kill Dajjal with his own sword. Look Naimat Shah! Stop and do not disclose the secrets of Allah. I am predicting these events in the Islamic year 548 Hijri.Allah knows best.

you have got to be kiding me

 

[TMA]

They are FAR worse than NATO. Whilst I don't appreciate Western military actions, I do feel some sympathy for Western troops. Russian troops on the other hand? They can have acid poured on them and I still wouldn't be satisfied.

Why do say they are worse?

Russia is not at war with Islam in the current climate; NATO is!
It was not Russia which launched the "War on Terror" post the false flag attacks of 9/11. It was not Russia which invaded Afghanistan and spread destabilization into the entire region, it was not Russia which invaded Iraq, it was not Russia which armed Khawarij groups in Libya and bombed her, it is not Russia which armed Khawarij groups in Syria.

I suppose I should have said that the allies to take should be those whom the Lord God says in Surah Al-Maida Verse 82:

لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُمْ مَوَدَّةً لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّا نَصَارَىٰ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ
​

Asad: Thou wilt surely find that, of all people, the most hostile to those who believe [in this divine writ] are the Jews as well as those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught beside God; and thou wilt surely find that, of all people, they who say, "Behold, we are Christians," come closest to feeling affection for those who believe [in this divine writ]: this is so because there are priests and monks among them, and because these are not given to arrogance. (emphasis added)

The question is where shall Muslims find these Christians?

 

[TMA]

To turn Pakistan into another Syria?

NATO has done this by arming Khawarij groups; of course Muslims have not done themselves any favours by being foolish.

 

[TMA]

 

[Hamza913]

Why do say they are worse?

Russia is not at war with Islam in the current climate; NATO is!
It was not Russia which launched the "War on Terror" post the false flag attacks of 9/11. It was not Russia which invaded Afghanistan and spread destabilization into the entire region, it was not Russia which invaded Iraq, it was not Russia which armed Khawarij groups in Libya and bombed her, it is not Russia which armed Khawarij groups in Syria.

I suppose I should have said that the allies to take should be those whom the Lord God says in Surah Al-Maida Verse 82:

لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ النَّاسِ عَدَاوَةً لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقْرَبَهُمْ مَوَدَّةً لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّا نَصَارَىٰ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنْهُمْ قِسِّيسِينَ وَرُهْبَانًا وَأَنَّهُمْ لَا يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ
​

Asad: Thou wilt surely find that, of all people, the most hostile to those who believe [in this divine writ] are the Jews as well as those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught beside God; and thou wilt surely find that, of all people, they who say, "Behold, we are Christians," come closest to feeling affection for those who believe [in this divine writ]: this is so because there are priests and monks among them, and because these are not given to arrogance. (emphasis added)

The question is where shall Muslims find these Christians?

What Russia has done in Chechnya, Dagestan and Afghanistan is worse than whatever NATO has done so far. Also, ideologically, NATO is better than Russia.

Russians glorify the murder of innocents much more than Westerners do. Donald Trump is more popular in Russia than he is in most NATO countries, and Russia is open about how poorly it treats innocents without caring. Westerners on the other hand, despite having a few bad eggs, usually have the capability of self-criticism and understand their mistakes as well as recognise them.

Both are douchebags, but Russia is worse. Besides, at least NATO pours money into our pockets.

 

[TMA]

What Russia has done in Chechnya, Dagestan and Afghanistan is worse than whatever NATO has done so far. Also, ideologically, NATO is better than Russia.

Russians glorify the murder of innocents much more than Westerners do. Donald Trump is more popular in Russia than he is in most NATO countries, and Russia is open about how poorly it treats innocents without caring. Westerners on the other hand, despite having a few bad eggs, usually have the capability of self-criticism and understand their mistakes as well as recognise them.

Both are douchebags, but Russia is worse. Besides, at least NATO pours money into our pockets.

****************************************

"Today I am going to look into the topic of Orthodox and Muslim cooperation, suggest one possible approach to this issue and give a practical example where this could be done immediately and with great benefit for all the parties involved. I consider this post today as the eighth installment of my “Russia and Islam” series and I suggest that those who have not read it take a look at it before proceeding (click here for parts one, two, three, four, five, six and seven). For reasons obvious to anybody who has read these series, I will limit my scope to the topic of cooperation between Orthodox Christians and non-Wahabi Muslims. As an Orthodox Christian myself I do not believe that any cooperation is possible between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy or the Reformed/Protestant denominations, nor do I believe that there is anything to discuss with Wahabis. So when I will speak of ‘Christian’ below this will strictly refer to Orthodox Christians and ‘Muslim’ will refer to any Muslim except Wahabis.

The fundamentally misguided yet typical approach:


Having had many opportunities to exchange views with Muslims from different countries and having also heard Christian and Muslim religious figures engaged in various debates, dialogs and discussions, I can describe the typical scenario by which such dialogs are conducted.


Typically, both sides try to establish a list of all the issues Islam and Christianity agree upon. These include that God is love, that the Mother of Jesus was a virgin, that the anti-Christ will come before the end of time, that Moses was a great prophet, that angels are the messengers of God any many other things. Added to this list of topics of agreement are usually statements about how Christians and Muslims have lived in peace side by side and how this should continue today. This is a well meaning and polite way to engage in a dialog, but this is also a fundamentally misguided one for the simple reason that it overlooks absolutely fundamental theological and historical problems. Let’s take these one by one.


Irreconcilable theological differences between Christianity and Islam


The highest most sacred dogmatic formulation of Christianity is the so-called “Credo” or “Symbol of Faith” (full text here; more info here). Literally every letterdown to the smallest ‘i‘ of this text is, from the Christian point of view, the most sacred and perfect dogmatic formulation, backed by the full authority of the two Ecumenical Councils which proclaimed it and all the subsequent Councils which upheld it. In simple terms – the Symbol of Faith is absolutely non-negotiable, non-re-definable, non-re-interpretable, you cannot take anything away from it, and you cannot add anything to it. You can either accept it as is, in toto, or reject it.


The fact is that Muslim would have many problems with this text, but one part in particular is absolutely unacceptable to any Muslim:


And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made


This part clearly and unambiguously affirms that Jesus-Christ was not only the Son of God but actually God Himself. This is expressed by the English formulation “of one essence with the Father” (ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί in Greek with the key term homousios meaning “consubstantial”). This is *THE* core belief of Christianity: that Jesus was the theanthropos, the God-Man or God incarnate. This belief is categorically unacceptable to Islam which says that Christ was a prophet and by essence a ‘normal’ human being.


For Islam, the very definition of what it is to be a Muslim is found in the so-called “Shahada” or testimony/witness. This is the famous statement by which a Muslim attests and proclaims that “There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God”. One can often also hear this phrased as “There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is His prophet”.


Now without even going into the issue of whether Christians can agree or not that “Allah” is the appropriate name for God (some do, some don’t – this is really irrelevant here), it’s the second part which is crucial here: Christianity does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet at all. In fact, technically speaking, Christianity would most likely classify Muhammad as a heretic (if only because of his rejection of the “Symbol of Faith”). Saint John of Damascus even called him a ‘false prophet’. Simply put: there is no way a Christian can accept the “Shahada” without giving up his Christianity just as there is no way for a Muslim to accept the “Symbol of Faith” without giving up his Islam.


So why bother?


Would it not make much more sense to accept that there are fundamental and irreconcilable differences between Christianity and Islam and simply give up all that useless quest for points of theological agreement? Who cares if we agree on the secondary if we categorically disagree on the primary? I am all in favor of Christians studying Islam and for Muslims studying Christianity (in fact, I urge them both to do so!), and I think that it is important that the faithful of these religions talk to each other and explain their points of view as long as this is not presented as some kind of quest for a common theological stance. Differences should be studied and explained, not obfuscated, minimized or overlooked.


The next divisive issue is the historical record.


Christians and Muslims – friends or foes? What does history show?


Another well-meaning and fundamentally mistaken approach often seen in dialogs between Christians and Muslims is the attempt to present the history of relations between these two faiths as a long uninterrupted love-fest. This is factually wrong and naive to the extreme.


First, both Muslims and Christians are human beings, imperfect and sinful human beings (both religions agree on that). Second, and just to make things worse, both Islam and Christianity have, at times, been official state religions, meaning that states acted in the name of their religion. As a result, there have been plenty of moments in history where Christians and Muslims fought each other. Yes, it is true that Muslims and Christians often did live in peace side by side, but unless one is a total bigot and ignoramus, it is simply impossible to ignore the fact that Christians and Muslims also waged war, persecuted and mistreated each other, sometimes viciously.


So what?


What needs to be established not whether Christians and Muslims did wrong each other in the past, but whether they can live in peace. And the answer to that is a resounding “yes!”. I know, some naysayer will immediately object that both Christianity and Islam have an mixed record of interpretation of whether converting the other to your religion is a religious duty or not. The point here is not whether some Christians or Muslims do (or did) believe that they have to convert each other at all cost, but whether there are those who do not believe so. As long as this is a possibility compatible with one’s faith this is sufficient.


I think that history, and plenty of statements from religious figures on both sides, prove that this is possible – and that there is a preponderance of evidence to show that – that both Christians and Muslims can accept that the decision to be a Muslim or a Christian should be freely taken inside each person’s heart without compulsion or even interference. The fact that it is possible to interpret Christianity and Islam differently is irrelevant as long as it is also possible to accept such a basic stance on religious choices.


Yes, I know that in Islam apostasy is a capital crime, but I also know that over the centuries Muslims have also chosen to not enforce this. It is not for me as an Orthodox Christian to dictate what Muslim leaders decide, but it is also clear to me that there are enough wise and pragmatic Muslim leaders out there to fully comprehend the consequences of a decision on their part to enforce the death penalty on somebody choosing to abandon Islam.


So where do we go from here?


It is very simple to get Christians and Muslims to feel hostility towards each other. First, make a few theological statements which are unacceptable to the other party, call the other a heretic or unbeliever, then mention a few bloody and contentious episodes in history and soon you will have a very nasty situation on your hands. This is as easy as it is sterile as nothing at all can come from that.


Thankfully, it is just as easy to accept that there are irreconcilable differences between the core beliefs of both religions and that each person should have the means to freely make a choice between these two faiths according to his conscience. As for history, it is a no-brainer to accept that both parties have, at times, done wrong to each other and that we are not responsible for what happened in the past, but only for what we make of our present and future.


Still, having dealt with our differences, we still should ask ourselves whether we have something in common, a common interest, or common values, which we might want to jointly defend. And we most definitely do: our ethics.


The common ground – ethics:


Any religion has two primarily components: what it believes in, what it proclaims, and then the rules of life, the “how to” of daily existence which it mandates. In Christian terms there is the doxa (what you proclaim or glorify) and the praxis (how you live your spiritual life on a daily basis). These are the basic rules common to most religions: not to kill, not to steal, to live a life of modesty, to protect the weak, etc. When comparing Islam and Christianity one can find both differences and similarities between their praxis and ethics. The differences in praxis are not that important because they mostly affect the private lives of the faithful: Muslims will fast during the month of Ramadan, Christians during the four major fasts of the year and on Wednesdays and Fridays. So let them, who cares? They really do not bother each other and, in fact, they are typically respectful of each other’s traditions. On ethics, however, the two religions mostly agree both on a social/corporate and individual level and, with one notable exception which I will discuss below, Christianity and Islam have very similar ideas of what is right and wrong and what society should stand for or pro-actively reject. Rather than making a long list of what Islam and Christianity agree on, I will simply introduce a new actor for comparison’s sake: the “post-Christian secular West”.


What does the post-Christian and secular West stand for today?


First and foremost, the post-Christian and secular West stands for the freedom of each person to chose his/her own system of belief, code of behavior, system of morals, lifestyles, etc. In other words, the post-Christian and secular West categorically rejects the notion that something called “The Truth” exists. From that it is logically inevitable to conclude that there really is no “right” or “wrong” at all. In fact, a core belief of the post-Christian and secular West is that “your freedom stops were mine begins” (originally expressed as “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins“). Ergo – as long as others are not affected by it, you can do whatever you want. Each person has his/her ‘truth’ and what you consider right another person might consider wrong and vice-versa.


Second, and as a direct consequence of the first point, the post-Christian and secular West places the well-being of the individual above the well-being of the community. This is perfectly expressed by the famous “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” phrase of the US Declaration of Independence which states that these are the inalienable right of each individual. The contrast with both Christianity and Islam could not have been greater since these religions consider that the real life is the Eternal Life, that the human being is called to be in obedience to God and that true happiness is spiritual and not earthly. In fact, while the West considers life as the highest value, Christianity and Islam welcome death and consider that dying in the name of God is a most desirable act of witness of God (martis in Greek has exactly the same meaning as shahid in Arabic: witness).


Finally, and as a direct consequence of the two points above, the only common value to all people in the post-Christian and secular West is, of course, money. Money is, literally, the only “common currency” of a society without any supreme values in which each person is free to define right and wrong as he/she wishes. This results in an inevitable monetization of everything, including the life of a human being.


This is really a very minimal system of values, but it is plenty enough to make it the “anti-religion” par excellence. In comparison to that, the differences between Orthodoxy and Islam suddenly appear tiny, almost irrelevant. Today, this is best exemplified in Russia where both Orthodox Christianity and Islam are under a direct multi-level attack by the determined efforts of the post-Christian and secular West which spares no effort to subvert and destroy the vales of these religions and replace them by Western “values” promoted in multi-billion dollar propaganda campaigns, including music, movies, books, fashion, TV, talk shows, stores, politicians, famous personalities, etc.


The recent and famous cases of Pussy-Riot and the supposed “right” of Russian homosexuals to organize “pride” parades in Moscow are the perfect examples of the kind of agenda the post-Christian and secular West is pushing nowadays. And although this is not reported in the Western corporate media, I can attest to the fact that Muslim leaders in Russia all perfectly understand that they are also under attack and that this is not just an “Orthodox problem”.


So what could they do about it?


A perfect opportunity – the Russian Constitution


Russian politicians are not blind to what is going on and with the exception of a few pathologically naive or dishonest “liberals”, they all understand that what is happening now is a clash of civilizations between the post-Christian and secular West and post-Soviet Russia. The fact that this clash of civilizations is not only ideological, but also political and even military (as the examples of the Euromaidan in the Ukraine and the deployment of the US anti-missile system in Eastern Europe shows) only makes these matters more urgent.


It just so happened that the Russian Constitution is celebrating its 20th anniversary and that possible changes to that Constitution are being discussed in many part of Russian society. One of the most bizarre features of the current Russian Constitution is that it forbids the state from having any ideology. Article 13.2 of the current Constitution states that “No ideology may be established as state or obligatory one“. The roots of this rather strange paragraph can be traced to a mix of the general rejection of the old Soviet official Marxist-Leninist Communist ideology and a transparent attempt of the foreign “advisers” to the Yeltsin regime in 1993 to make darn sure that nothing “Russian” would find its place in the new Russian Constitution.


Some Russian Orthodox politicians have suggested that this paragraph 13.2 should be expunged and that some formulation would have to be found to express the notion that Orthodoxy played a key historical role in the culture and system of values of modern Russia, that Orthodox values are the basis of the modern ideology of Russia. So far, no exact formulation has been suggested and there is even a debate whether such a phrase should be included in the Constitution itself or in its preamble.


Needless to say, even raising such a notion has resulted in an outraged reaction by the small but very vocal minority of pro-Western “liberal” politicians. More importantly, a lot of Russian Orthodox Christians also have deep reservations about the wisdom of such an amendment because it might alienate all the non-Orthodox people in Russia, which include not only Muslims or Buddhists, but a probably majority of agnostics. Muslim leaders have also expressed concern that this would officially place Islam in a 2nd-category religion status (even though that is exactly the status of Christian dhimmis under Sharia law) and given Orthodoxy a senior, leading role.


I strongly believe that this is the perfect example when Christians and Muslims can easily find a common ground and unite forces: why not simply recognize the special role of Orthodoxy and Islam in the historical formulation of the Russian culture, society and system of values?


First, this happens to be historically correct. Not only were there a lot of Muslims among the Mongols who occupied Russia, in particular in the late period of occupation, but the expansion of the Russian state included many areas with a majority Muslim population who became citizens of the Russian Empire. Muslims have fought in defense of the Russian state and nation in many wars from the times of Saint Alexander Nevsky, to WWII to the 08.08.08 war against Georgia. Last but most definitely not least, Akhmad Kadyrov and his son Ramzan Kadyrov have played an absolutely crucial role in kicking the Wahabis out of Chechnya and thereby they not only saved the Chechen nation from what would have been an absolutely devastating Russian assault, but they also probably saved Russia from a very dangerous and bloody war in the Caucasus. The same can be said of the Dagestani men who for several days single-handedly fought the invading “Islamic International Brigade” of Shamil Basaev and Khattab from Chechnia in 1999 until the main Federal forces got involved. Modern Russia is, beyond any possible doubt, a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state whose well-being and prosperity depends in great part from the kind of Islam Russian Muslims will chose: the Islam of Ramzan Kadyrov or the “Islam” of Doku Umarov (the shaitan who fancies himself the “President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and Emir of the Caucasus Emirate”).


Second, by acknowledging the role of both Orthodox Christianity and Islam the proponents of this constitutional amendment would gain the support of what is by far the largest segment of the religions population: there are Buddhists, Papists, Protestants, Jews and other religious denominations in Russia, but they are tiny compared to the big two. Personally, I would also include Buddhists in this list of “culture forming” religious whose values are shaping Russian society if only because (unlike the other small(er) religions) they are truly indigenous to Russia whereas the other denominations are “foreign imports” which, of course, have the right to exist in Russia, but which have had exactly zero influence on the formation of the Russian national identity or system of values.


As for the nominally religious and mostly agnostic people, the mere fact that two (or three) religions are recognized in a special role should assuage their concerns about any one system of values or ideology becoming official at the expense of everybody else. After all, most people in Russia would agree that the ethics of Islam and Christianity have a lot in common. The only major societal and moral issue in which Orthodox Christianity and Islam really disagree on is the issue of capital punishment. But that is irrelevant since Russia has pledged a total moratorium on executions anyway (of all things, to join – what else? – the Council of Europe); besides a majority of Russians still remain in favor of the death penalty to the point that it might even be re-introduced in the future.


Conclusion


Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, cooperation between Orthodox Christianity and Islam is actually very easy to achieve. Both sides have to accept the fact of irreconcilable theological disagreements, both sides have to accept that they did wrong each other in the past, and both sides have to affirm the right of each person to freely chose his/her religion, including the right to switch from one to another. So far that should be a no-brainer.


Next, Christian and Muslims need to define a set of civilizational issues that they fully agree on. Also a no-brainer.


Finally, both sides should systematically defend their cultural, social and civilizational values together, side by side. In fact, as long as their cultural, social and civilizational values are not in conflict with each other, Orthodox Christians and Muslims should defend the values of the other side on principle, as being *Russian* formative/foundational values. For example, Russian Orthodox Christians should defend the right of Muslim girls to wear a scarf in school and elsewhere. Not only because that is beautiful or because before Peter I all Russian woman always war the exact same scarfs not only in church, but all day long – but because the so-called “Islamic veil” is in no way a threat to Christianity: just look at an icon of the Mother of God.


Recently, an Orthodox church was burned down at night in Tatarstan by some Wahabi thugs. The local Muslim community got together and donated all the money needed for a full reconstruction. Likewise, in Chechnia, Ramzan Kadyrov has personally overseen the reconstruction of many Russian churches destroyed in combat or by the Wahabis and the local government has now allocated money for the construction of an Orthodox cathedral in the center of Grozny. In the meantime, the city authorities of Stavropol have ordered the destruction of two “illegal” mosques. That is in a city which has only one mosque – currently used as a museum, it’s tiny anyway – and a Muslim population of anywhere 60,000 and 500,000 people (depends on who you ask and how you measure). The city authorities did promise to build a full Islamic Center (with mosque, school, hotel, etc.) which is great, but nothing has been done so far. Granted, the situation in Stavropol is particularly bad and it is complicated by many other factors such as the existence of nominally “Muslim” gangs of thugs and the hostility of the local popularization to what they perceive as the “Islamization” of their city and region. This is the exact type of case where the Federal authorities need to energetically intervene, as Putin has often done in such cases, and deal with this problem in what is referred to as “manual regime” (in contrast to the bureaucratic autopilot). Overall, so far, the record of Orthodox-Muslim cooperation is checkered.


If Orthodox Christians and Muslims could get together and jointly push for a change in the Russian Constitution this would not only get the job done, but it would herald a new era for Russia because it would send a strong signal to the local level in Russia (such as Stavropol) and abroad (Iran, Syria, Lebanon) that Russia has taken the fundamental decision to work with any Muslim party willing to do so on the basis of a few clearly defined, mutually accepted and simple principles.


A special words to any naysayers


I personally find all of the above really basic and self-evident. But having met the naysayers from both sides, I know that some of you will not be convinced. You “know” that Christians are imperialists never to be trusted or the Muslims are out to establish a “world Caliphate” on our dead bodies. Okay. Now let me ask you the question Americans kids like to challenge each other with: “and what are you gonna do about it?!“. Expel all Muslims out of Russia and cut-off the Caucasus? Kill all of kufars and organize an Islamic Caliphate in Russia? Fight the righteous struggle against everybody and all fronts at the same time all on your own? Convince everybody to convert?


I don’t think so.


In fact, by doing any of that all your are going to do is to do exactly what the Western political elites really want you to do! You do that any nobody will be more happy than the Tamir Pardo, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Hillary Clinton. Politics is the art of the possible and to aim at the impossible is simply one form of political suicide. Those who desperately want to pit Christians against Muslims will never achieve anything but delivering yet another blow against the very religion they claim to defend. In my experience, these people have a very poor and superficial religious education and typically no historical education at all. They mistake their hatred for the “other” for a God-pleasing religious zeal, and they act not so much out of love for their own religion, as out of hate for the religion of the other. These are the folks who simply cannot see, in the beautiful words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn that


All attempts to find a way out of the plight of today’s world are fruitless unless we redirect our consciousness, in repentance, to the Creator of all: without this, no exit will be illumined, and we shall seek it in vain. The resources we have set aside for ourselves are too impoverished for the task. We must first recognize the horror perpetrated not by some outside force, not by class or national enemies, but within each of us individually, and within every society. This is especially true of a free and highly developed society, for here in particular we have surely brought everything upon ourselves, of our own free will. We ourselves, in our daily unthinking selfishness, are pulling tight that noose…


God-fearing and pious Muslims and Christians alike must realize and accept that humility and sincere repentance for our own sins is what God calls us to do and that seeking an external enemy to fear and hate is not profitable for our souls. Our diversity of beliefs has no other cause than our own sinfulness, which itself is a direct consequence of our common humanity, a humanity which we all share regardless of our beliefs. Having found and espoused the True faith does not necessarily make us better people at all, it only makes us more fortunate and privileged ones, and that privilege places a special burden upon us to show forgiveness and compassion towards our erring fellow human being. Finally, if our goal is really to convert the other one, the best way to do that is by our individual example of true piety, purity and love and not by “winning” a political struggle."

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This is from a Russian Orthodox Christian, if you like to learn more see below

http://thesaker.is/russia-and-islam-working-together-a-basic-how-to-repost/

I prefer Trump to Clinton. NATO wishes to impose her bloody footprint over the whole world; Russia does not, yet you think NATO is better ideologically?

 

[Hamza913]

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"Today I am going to look into the topic of Orthodox and Muslim cooperation, suggest one possible approach to this issue and give a practical example where this could be done immediately and with great benefit for all the parties involved. I consider this post today as the eighth installment of my “Russia and Islam” series and I suggest that those who have not read it take a look at it before proceeding (click here for parts one, two, three, four, five, six and seven). For reasons obvious to anybody who has read these series, I will limit my scope to the topic of cooperation between Orthodox Christians and non-Wahabi Muslims. As an Orthodox Christian myself I do not believe that any cooperation is possible between the Orthodox Church and the Papacy or the Reformed/Protestant denominations, nor do I believe that there is anything to discuss with Wahabis. So when I will speak of ‘Christian’ below this will strictly refer to Orthodox Christians and ‘Muslim’ will refer to any Muslim except Wahabis.

The fundamentally misguided yet typical approach:


Having had many opportunities to exchange views with Muslims from different countries and having also heard Christian and Muslim religious figures engaged in various debates, dialogs and discussions, I can describe the typical scenario by which such dialogs are conducted.


Typically, both sides try to establish a list of all the issues Islam and Christianity agree upon. These include that God is love, that the Mother of Jesus was a virgin, that the anti-Christ will come before the end of time, that Moses was a great prophet, that angels are the messengers of God any many other things. Added to this list of topics of agreement are usually statements about how Christians and Muslims have lived in peace side by side and how this should continue today. This is a well meaning and polite way to engage in a dialog, but this is also a fundamentally misguided one for the simple reason that it overlooks absolutely fundamental theological and historical problems. Let’s take these one by one.


Irreconcilable theological differences between Christianity and Islam


The highest most sacred dogmatic formulation of Christianity is the so-called “Credo” or “Symbol of Faith” (full text here; more info here). Literally every letterdown to the smallest ‘i‘ of this text is, from the Christian point of view, the most sacred and perfect dogmatic formulation, backed by the full authority of the two Ecumenical Councils which proclaimed it and all the subsequent Councils which upheld it. In simple terms – the Symbol of Faith is absolutely non-negotiable, non-re-definable, non-re-interpretable, you cannot take anything away from it, and you cannot add anything to it. You can either accept it as is, in toto, or reject it.


The fact is that Muslim would have many problems with this text, but one part in particular is absolutely unacceptable to any Muslim:


And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made


This part clearly and unambiguously affirms that Jesus-Christ was not only the Son of God but actually God Himself. This is expressed by the English formulation “of one essence with the Father” (ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί in Greek with the key term homousios meaning “consubstantial”). This is *THE* core belief of Christianity: that Jesus was the theanthropos, the God-Man or God incarnate. This belief is categorically unacceptable to Islam which says that Christ was a prophet and by essence a ‘normal’ human being.


For Islam, the very definition of what it is to be a Muslim is found in the so-called “Shahada” or testimony/witness. This is the famous statement by which a Muslim attests and proclaims that “There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God”. One can often also hear this phrased as “There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is His prophet”.


Now without even going into the issue of whether Christians can agree or not that “Allah” is the appropriate name for God (some do, some don’t – this is really irrelevant here), it’s the second part which is crucial here: Christianity does not recognize Muhammad as a prophet at all. In fact, technically speaking, Christianity would most likely classify Muhammad as a heretic (if only because of his rejection of the “Symbol of Faith”). Saint John of Damascus even called him a ‘false prophet’. Simply put: there is no way a Christian can accept the “Shahada” without giving up his Christianity just as there is no way for a Muslim to accept the “Symbol of Faith” without giving up his Islam.


So why bother?


Would it not make much more sense to accept that there are fundamental and irreconcilable differences between Christianity and Islam and simply give up all that useless quest for points of theological agreement? Who cares if we agree on the secondary if we categorically disagree on the primary? I am all in favor of Christians studying Islam and for Muslims studying Christianity (in fact, I urge them both to do so!), and I think that it is important that the faithful of these religions talk to each other and explain their points of view as long as this is not presented as some kind of quest for a common theological stance. Differences should be studied and explained, not obfuscated, minimized or overlooked.


The next divisive issue is the historical record.


Christians and Muslims – friends or foes? What does history show?


Another well-meaning and fundamentally mistaken approach often seen in dialogs between Christians and Muslims is the attempt to present the history of relations between these two faiths as a long uninterrupted love-fest. This is factually wrong and naive to the extreme.


First, both Muslims and Christians are human beings, imperfect and sinful human beings (both religions agree on that). Second, and just to make things worse, both Islam and Christianity have, at times, been official state religions, meaning that states acted in the name of their religion. As a result, there have been plenty of moments in history where Christians and Muslims fought each other. Yes, it is true that Muslims and Christians often did live in peace side by side, but unless one is a total bigot and ignoramus, it is simply impossible to ignore the fact that Christians and Muslims also waged war, persecuted and mistreated each other, sometimes viciously.


So what?


What needs to be established not whether Christians and Muslims did wrong each other in the past, but whether they can live in peace. And the answer to that is a resounding “yes!”. I know, some naysayer will immediately object that both Christianity and Islam have an mixed record of interpretation of whether converting the other to your religion is a religious duty or not. The point here is not whether some Christians or Muslims do (or did) believe that they have to convert each other at all cost, but whether there are those who do not believe so. As long as this is a possibility compatible with one’s faith this is sufficient.


I think that history, and plenty of statements from religious figures on both sides, prove that this is possible – and that there is a preponderance of evidence to show that – that both Christians and Muslims can accept that the decision to be a Muslim or a Christian should be freely taken inside each person’s heart without compulsion or even interference. The fact that it is possible to interpret Christianity and Islam differently is irrelevant as long as it is also possible to accept such a basic stance on religious choices.


Yes, I know that in Islam apostasy is a capital crime, but I also know that over the centuries Muslims have also chosen to not enforce this. It is not for me as an Orthodox Christian to dictate what Muslim leaders decide, but it is also clear to me that there are enough wise and pragmatic Muslim leaders out there to fully comprehend the consequences of a decision on their part to enforce the death penalty on somebody choosing to abandon Islam.


So where do we go from here?


It is very simple to get Christians and Muslims to feel hostility towards each other. First, make a few theological statements which are unacceptable to the other party, call the other a heretic or unbeliever, then mention a few bloody and contentious episodes in history and soon you will have a very nasty situation on your hands. This is as easy as it is sterile as nothing at all can come from that.


Thankfully, it is just as easy to accept that there are irreconcilable differences between the core beliefs of both religions and that each person should have the means to freely make a choice between these two faiths according to his conscience. As for history, it is a no-brainer to accept that both parties have, at times, done wrong to each other and that we are not responsible for what happened in the past, but only for what we make of our present and future.


Still, having dealt with our differences, we still should ask ourselves whether we have something in common, a common interest, or common values, which we might want to jointly defend. And we most definitely do: our ethics.


The common ground – ethics:


Any religion has two primarily components: what it believes in, what it proclaims, and then the rules of life, the “how to” of daily existence which it mandates. In Christian terms there is the doxa (what you proclaim or glorify) and the praxis (how you live your spiritual life on a daily basis). These are the basic rules common to most religions: not to kill, not to steal, to live a life of modesty, to protect the weak, etc. When comparing Islam and Christianity one can find both differences and similarities between their praxis and ethics. The differences in praxis are not that important because they mostly affect the private lives of the faithful: Muslims will fast during the month of Ramadan, Christians during the four major fasts of the year and on Wednesdays and Fridays. So let them, who cares? They really do not bother each other and, in fact, they are typically respectful of each other’s traditions. On ethics, however, the two religions mostly agree both on a social/corporate and individual level and, with one notable exception which I will discuss below, Christianity and Islam have very similar ideas of what is right and wrong and what society should stand for or pro-actively reject. Rather than making a long list of what Islam and Christianity agree on, I will simply introduce a new actor for comparison’s sake: the “post-Christian secular West”.


What does the post-Christian and secular West stand for today?


First and foremost, the post-Christian and secular West stands for the freedom of each person to chose his/her own system of belief, code of behavior, system of morals, lifestyles, etc. In other words, the post-Christian and secular West categorically rejects the notion that something called “The Truth” exists. From that it is logically inevitable to conclude that there really is no “right” or “wrong” at all. In fact, a core belief of the post-Christian and secular West is that “your freedom stops were mine begins” (originally expressed as “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins“). Ergo – as long as others are not affected by it, you can do whatever you want. Each person has his/her ‘truth’ and what you consider right another person might consider wrong and vice-versa.


Second, and as a direct consequence of the first point, the post-Christian and secular West places the well-being of the individual above the well-being of the community. This is perfectly expressed by the famous “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” phrase of the US Declaration of Independence which states that these are the inalienable right of each individual. The contrast with both Christianity and Islam could not have been greater since these religions consider that the real life is the Eternal Life, that the human being is called to be in obedience to God and that true happiness is spiritual and not earthly. In fact, while the West considers life as the highest value, Christianity and Islam welcome death and consider that dying in the name of God is a most desirable act of witness of God (martis in Greek has exactly the same meaning as shahid in Arabic: witness).


Finally, and as a direct consequence of the two points above, the only common value to all people in the post-Christian and secular West is, of course, money. Money is, literally, the only “common currency” of a society without any supreme values in which each person is free to define right and wrong as he/she wishes. This results in an inevitable monetization of everything, including the life of a human being.


This is really a very minimal system of values, but it is plenty enough to make it the “anti-religion” par excellence. In comparison to that, the differences between Orthodoxy and Islam suddenly appear tiny, almost irrelevant. Today, this is best exemplified in Russia where both Orthodox Christianity and Islam are under a direct multi-level attack by the determined efforts of the post-Christian and secular West which spares no effort to subvert and destroy the vales of these religions and replace them by Western “values” promoted in multi-billion dollar propaganda campaigns, including music, movies, books, fashion, TV, talk shows, stores, politicians, famous personalities, etc.


The recent and famous cases of Pussy-Riot and the supposed “right” of Russian homosexuals to organize “pride” parades in Moscow are the perfect examples of the kind of agenda the post-Christian and secular West is pushing nowadays. And although this is not reported in the Western corporate media, I can attest to the fact that Muslim leaders in Russia all perfectly understand that they are also under attack and that this is not just an “Orthodox problem”.


So what could they do about it?


A perfect opportunity – the Russian Constitution


Russian politicians are not blind to what is going on and with the exception of a few pathologically naive or dishonest “liberals”, they all understand that what is happening now is a clash of civilizations between the post-Christian and secular West and post-Soviet Russia. The fact that this clash of civilizations is not only ideological, but also political and even military (as the examples of the Euromaidan in the Ukraine and the deployment of the US anti-missile system in Eastern Europe shows) only makes these matters more urgent.


It just so happened that the Russian Constitution is celebrating its 20th anniversary and that possible changes to that Constitution are being discussed in many part of Russian society. One of the most bizarre features of the current Russian Constitution is that it forbids the state from having any ideology. Article 13.2 of the current Constitution states that “No ideology may be established as state or obligatory one“. The roots of this rather strange paragraph can be traced to a mix of the general rejection of the old Soviet official Marxist-Leninist Communist ideology and a transparent attempt of the foreign “advisers” to the Yeltsin regime in 1993 to make darn sure that nothing “Russian” would find its place in the new Russian Constitution.


Some Russian Orthodox politicians have suggested that this paragraph 13.2 should be expunged and that some formulation would have to be found to express the notion that Orthodoxy played a key historical role in the culture and system of values of modern Russia, that Orthodox values are the basis of the modern ideology of Russia. So far, no exact formulation has been suggested and there is even a debate whether such a phrase should be included in the Constitution itself or in its preamble.


Needless to say, even raising such a notion has resulted in an outraged reaction by the small but very vocal minority of pro-Western “liberal” politicians. More importantly, a lot of Russian Orthodox Christians also have deep reservations about the wisdom of such an amendment because it might alienate all the non-Orthodox people in Russia, which include not only Muslims or Buddhists, but a probably majority of agnostics. Muslim leaders have also expressed concern that this would officially place Islam in a 2nd-category religion status (even though that is exactly the status of Christian dhimmis under Sharia law) and given Orthodoxy a senior, leading role.


I strongly believe that this is the perfect example when Christians and Muslims can easily find a common ground and unite forces: why not simply recognize the special role of Orthodoxy and Islam in the historical formulation of the Russian culture, society and system of values?


First, this happens to be historically correct. Not only were there a lot of Muslims among the Mongols who occupied Russia, in particular in the late period of occupation, but the expansion of the Russian state included many areas with a majority Muslim population who became citizens of the Russian Empire. Muslims have fought in defense of the Russian state and nation in many wars from the times of Saint Alexander Nevsky, to WWII to the 08.08.08 war against Georgia. Last but most definitely not least, Akhmad Kadyrov and his son Ramzan Kadyrov have played an absolutely crucial role in kicking the Wahabis out of Chechnya and thereby they not only saved the Chechen nation from what would have been an absolutely devastating Russian assault, but they also probably saved Russia from a very dangerous and bloody war in the Caucasus. The same can be said of the Dagestani men who for several days single-handedly fought the invading “Islamic International Brigade” of Shamil Basaev and Khattab from Chechnia in 1999 until the main Federal forces got involved. Modern Russia is, beyond any possible doubt, a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state whose well-being and prosperity depends in great part from the kind of Islam Russian Muslims will chose: the Islam of Ramzan Kadyrov or the “Islam” of Doku Umarov (the shaitan who fancies himself the “President of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and Emir of the Caucasus Emirate”).


Second, by acknowledging the role of both Orthodox Christianity and Islam the proponents of this constitutional amendment would gain the support of what is by far the largest segment of the religions population: there are Buddhists, Papists, Protestants, Jews and other religious denominations in Russia, but they are tiny compared to the big two. Personally, I would also include Buddhists in this list of “culture forming” religious whose values are shaping Russian society if only because (unlike the other small(er) religions) they are truly indigenous to Russia whereas the other denominations are “foreign imports” which, of course, have the right to exist in Russia, but which have had exactly zero influence on the formation of the Russian national identity or system of values.


As for the nominally religious and mostly agnostic people, the mere fact that two (or three) religions are recognized in a special role should assuage their concerns about any one system of values or ideology becoming official at the expense of everybody else. After all, most people in Russia would agree that the ethics of Islam and Christianity have a lot in common. The only major societal and moral issue in which Orthodox Christianity and Islam really disagree on is the issue of capital punishment. But that is irrelevant since Russia has pledged a total moratorium on executions anyway (of all things, to join – what else? – the Council of Europe); besides a majority of Russians still remain in favor of the death penalty to the point that it might even be re-introduced in the future.


Conclusion


Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, cooperation between Orthodox Christianity and Islam is actually very easy to achieve. Both sides have to accept the fact of irreconcilable theological disagreements, both sides have to accept that they did wrong each other in the past, and both sides have to affirm the right of each person to freely chose his/her religion, including the right to switch from one to another. So far that should be a no-brainer.


Next, Christian and Muslims need to define a set of civilizational issues that they fully agree on. Also a no-brainer.


Finally, both sides should systematically defend their cultural, social and civilizational values together, side by side. In fact, as long as their cultural, social and civilizational values are not in conflict with each other, Orthodox Christians and Muslims should defend the values of the other side on principle, as being *Russian* formative/foundational values. For example, Russian Orthodox Christians should defend the right of Muslim girls to wear a scarf in school and elsewhere. Not only because that is beautiful or because before Peter I all Russian woman always war the exact same scarfs not only in church, but all day long – but because the so-called “Islamic veil” is in no way a threat to Christianity: just look at an icon of the Mother of God.


Recently, an Orthodox church was burned down at night in Tatarstan by some Wahabi thugs. The local Muslim community got together and donated all the money needed for a full reconstruction. Likewise, in Chechnia, Ramzan Kadyrov has personally overseen the reconstruction of many Russian churches destroyed in combat or by the Wahabis and the local government has now allocated money for the construction of an Orthodox cathedral in the center of Grozny. In the meantime, the city authorities of Stavropol have ordered the destruction of two “illegal” mosques. That is in a city which has only one mosque – currently used as a museum, it’s tiny anyway – and a Muslim population of anywhere 60,000 and 500,000 people (depends on who you ask and how you measure). The city authorities did promise to build a full Islamic Center (with mosque, school, hotel, etc.) which is great, but nothing has been done so far. Granted, the situation in Stavropol is particularly bad and it is complicated by many other factors such as the existence of nominally “Muslim” gangs of thugs and the hostility of the local popularization to what they perceive as the “Islamization” of their city and region. This is the exact type of case where the Federal authorities need to energetically intervene, as Putin has often done in such cases, and deal with this problem in what is referred to as “manual regime” (in contrast to the bureaucratic autopilot). Overall, so far, the record of Orthodox-Muslim cooperation is checkered.


If Orthodox Christians and Muslims could get together and jointly push for a change in the Russian Constitution this would not only get the job done, but it would herald a new era for Russia because it would send a strong signal to the local level in Russia (such as Stavropol) and abroad (Iran, Syria, Lebanon) that Russia has taken the fundamental decision to work with any Muslim party willing to do so on the basis of a few clearly defined, mutually accepted and simple principles.


A special words to any naysayers


I personally find all of the above really basic and self-evident. But having met the naysayers from both sides, I know that some of you will not be convinced. You “know” that Christians are imperialists never to be trusted or the Muslims are out to establish a “world Caliphate” on our dead bodies. Okay. Now let me ask you the question Americans kids like to challenge each other with: “and what are you gonna do about it?!“. Expel all Muslims out of Russia and cut-off the Caucasus? Kill all of kufars and organize an Islamic Caliphate in Russia? Fight the righteous struggle against everybody and all fronts at the same time all on your own? Convince everybody to convert?


I don’t think so.


In fact, by doing any of that all your are going to do is to do exactly what the Western political elites really want you to do! You do that any nobody will be more happy than the Tamir Pardo, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Hillary Clinton. Politics is the art of the possible and to aim at the impossible is simply one form of political suicide. Those who desperately want to pit Christians against Muslims will never achieve anything but delivering yet another blow against the very religion they claim to defend. In my experience, these people have a very poor and superficial religious education and typically no historical education at all. They mistake their hatred for the “other” for a God-pleasing religious zeal, and they act not so much out of love for their own religion, as out of hate for the religion of the other. These are the folks who simply cannot see, in the beautiful words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn that


All attempts to find a way out of the plight of today’s world are fruitless unless we redirect our consciousness, in repentance, to the Creator of all: without this, no exit will be illumined, and we shall seek it in vain. The resources we have set aside for ourselves are too impoverished for the task. We must first recognize the horror perpetrated not by some outside force, not by class or national enemies, but within each of us individually, and within every society. This is especially true of a free and highly developed society, for here in particular we have surely brought everything upon ourselves, of our own free will. We ourselves, in our daily unthinking selfishness, are pulling tight that noose…


God-fearing and pious Muslims and Christians alike must realize and accept that humility and sincere repentance for our own sins is what God calls us to do and that seeking an external enemy to fear and hate is not profitable for our souls. Our diversity of beliefs has no other cause than our own sinfulness, which itself is a direct consequence of our common humanity, a humanity which we all share regardless of our beliefs. Having found and espoused the True faith does not necessarily make us better people at all, it only makes us more fortunate and privileged ones, and that privilege places a special burden upon us to show forgiveness and compassion towards our erring fellow human being. Finally, if our goal is really to convert the other one, the best way to do that is by our individual example of true piety, purity and love and not by “winning” a political struggle."

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This is from a Russian Orthodox Christian, if you like to learn more see below

http://thesaker.is/russia-and-islam-working-together-a-basic-how-to-repost/

I prefer Trump to Clinton. NATO wishes to impose her bloody footprint over the whole world; Russia does not, yet you think NATO is better ideologically?

Man, I can't read that much during Ramadan. Let's just leave it at you have your opinion and I have mine.

 

[TMA]

Man, I can't read that much during Ramadan. Let's just leave it at you have your opinion and I have mine.

Fair enough but read the link after Ramadan.