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ISI Phobia

Why so?

1. Because ISI itself wants to be in the news. No other intelligence agency in the world is as media savvy as is the ISI.

Hardly so. Explain how? Fun fact: about a year or so ago General Shuja Pasha was listed in the Forbes 100 most powerful men in the world. The Pakistani media decided to run stories on it. They sifted through everything they had and all they could find on Gen. Pasha was a 6 year old five second video clip of him standing besides Gen. Musharraf and that too when he was not in the ISI.

2. The ISI has, over time, transformed into a tool of the Generals to control the internal politics of Pakistan. From the case of Saleem Shahzad to its involvement in the everyday politics, it's all too evident.

The ISI has many branches (as do all the other respectable Intel agencies) which are tasked with different duties. One of those branches is tasked with keeping an eye on the internal politics. There are other branches tasked with other duties. Remember the eight out of the ten most wanted people for the US handed over to them by the ISI? That too is all too evident if only one chooses to look.

3. The ISI is a direct tool of the Pakistan Army which is obviously the single most powerful organisation in Pakistan. Few other Armies or intelligence agencies in the world enjoy such a powerful status inside their own countries.

Correct.

I think may be bcoz of the Osama incident ISI is discussed more in the media

Yes that is or could be one of the contributing factors but one has to realize that the recent discussions on the ISI have gone far beyond the Osama incident. I mean even the Americans have forgotten about Osama, well at least the ones who knew who he was ;)

No foreign press mentions it as often as Indians and Pakistanis. Russians will not give a damn about ISI when they discuss their secret services nor will Americans and Britishers, it is just related to us (south asians). And as this is a Pakistani forum and Pakistanis know ISI more than foreigners so it is normal that it is discussed more than other secret services.

For example if you go to a US defense related forum they will be discussing CIA more naturally as they know it more than other agencies.

Just like the other day a person said why there are so many wikileaks about Pakistan unlike other countries and in fact some countries are having more leaks than Pakistan. It is just that we are following only about Pakistan so we see that wikileaks is only about Pakistan generally.

Its not just that. The progressive increase in the stories pertaining to denouncing the ISI in the worldwide media does make one wonder why. And yes the ISI is regularly discussed in the western media these days.
 
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Hardly so. Explain how? Fun fact: about a year or so ago General Shuja Pasha was listed in the Forbes 100 most powerful men in the world. The Pakistani media decided to run stories on it. They sifted through everything they had and all they could find on Gen. Pasha was a 6 year old five second video clip of him standing besides Gen. Musharraf and that too when he was not in the ISI.

One line. Tell me in a ratio of x:y, the no. of Pakistanis and Indians who even know that a Gen Pasha exists vs the number of Pakistanis and Indians who even know the name of RAW chief without having to Google.

That is the visibility quotient of ISI.

The ISI has many branches (as do all the other respectable Intel agencies) which are tasked with different duties. One of those branches is tasked with keeping an eye on the internal politics. There are other branches tasked with other duties. Remember the eight out of the ten most wanted people for the US handed over to them by the ISI? That too is all too evident if only one chooses to look.

The ISI handing over people to the US is unrelated to its involvement in internal politics of Pakistan.

It is no secret that ISI has, over time and suiting the interests of its and PA's Generals, both propped up Pakistani politicians and also brought down Pakistani politicians. They chose to do what suited their motives at a point in time.

That's why I said that ISI is more of a tool in the hands of PA generals to control Pakistani politicians and nowadays, after the Saleem Shahzad case, even the media and the journalists.
 
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ISI works for the people of Pakistan and not for the useless Pakistani politicians. ISI protects my interest and that is just the way I like it and all you foreign people can go to H_ LL, for all I care. You hate ISI because they work for the national interest of Pakistan so keep roasting in your own stew.
 
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One line. Tell me in a ratio of x:y, the no. of Pakistanis and Indians who even know that a Gen Pasha exists vs the number of Pakistanis and Indians who even know the name of RAW chief without having to Google.

That is the visibility quotient of ISI.

Off the top of my head I can see some discrepancies with your argument.

Firstly you had said "Because ISI itself wants to be in the news. No other intelligence agency in the world is as media savvy as is the ISI." Forgive me but I do not understand the direct correlation that you have drawn between being visible and being 'media savvy'. Ill explain; the most well known Intel agencies in the world would be the CIA, the KGB, the MI6, the Mossad, etc. Now there are no extra points for guessing that these are also some of the most competent agencies in the world. Now would you say that these agencies too are 'media savvy'? (Correct me if im wrong but what I got from the phrase 'media savvy' was incompetent fools hungry for attention).

Secondly your visibility quotient fails to account for many other variables apart from being just 'media savvy' (this is also related to the point i just made above by the way). Pakistan is in the midst of a "global crisis", militarily and politically. As is the case with any respectable military in the world the ISI is the first and most used arm of the military services of Pakistan and hence is right in the spot light of the world media. This factor alone adds exponentially to the value of your visibility quotient. Next is the fact that the US and Pakistan are in a power struggle of sorts. And as is the case in Pakistan the shots are being called by the military. This again puts the ISI right in the spot light. Furthermore read my previous posts for more reasons accounting for the attention being given to the ISI these days.

Now for the point which you made about RAW. The visibility quotient also fails to account the actual importance and note worthiness (to use a more subtle term than incompetence) of the said agency. Forget the names of the chiefs would you be able to tell me the names of the Indonesian, the Polish, the Swedish or the Mexican agencies?

Finally to the point which I made earlier. Show me when, where and how the ISI has exhibited 'media savvyness', so to speak.
The ISI handing over people to the US is unrelated to its involvement in internal politics of Pakistan.

It is no secret that ISI has, over time and suiting the interests of its and PA's Generals, both propped up Pakistani politicians and also brought down Pakistani politicians. They chose to do what suited their motives at a point in time.

No denying that.

That's why I said that ISI is more of a tool in the hands of PA generals to control Pakistani politicians and nowadays, after the Saleem Shahzad case, even the media and the journalists.

That is what is wrong with your statement. ISI is too expansive to be termed as merely a tool for the generals to control the Pakistani politicians. That indeed is one of its rolls. But it is neither the only nor the foremost roll assigned to the ISI. Its duties in the military arena are still far more expansive than what we see in the politics of Pakistan. There is too much out there supporting that. Denying it would be folly.

Btw many a times the ISI has saved our backsides too by involving themselves in Pakistani politics.
 
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they shold make a movie on isi like james bond 007 but there are no 007 but still alot of action can be created:triniti:
 
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ISI is an essential service that performs roles vital to the national security. My problem is with self-righteous pro extremist bigots such as Gen Hamid Gul, who may have set a very disturbing right wing agenda for ISI. Hamid Gul is long gone but his lackeys may still be carrying out his dirty work and rank and file could still be harbouring sympathies for anti- state TTP.

It may be limited to low ranking operatives, but as a thinking man I find it impossible to believe that weapons could have been imported into Lal Masjid (located very near ISI HQRs), attack on GHQ, and Osama’s stay near PMA Kakul could have happened without any one in the ISI knowing about it or unable to stop it. And this is supposed to be one of best secret services in the world!!!

No I don’t have any ISI phobia. Call me what you like but I don’t believe in the kind of patriotism that Zaid Hamid preaches. Based on the examples I have quote above, I simply believe that either some of the ISI operatives are pro Talban or they are incompetent.

I know that I am repeating what media in the West and of India has printing for a long time as part of anti-Pakistan propaganda. But this is my view right or wrong and nothing I have come across in the last 10 years to disprove my conclusions.

One thing I am glad about; ISI has not come under Rehman Malik, else it would have been destroyed altogether.
 
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Sir please dont tell me that you believe everything you hear on the media. I am not saying everything out there is a lie but do try to make some conclusions of your own as well.

Dude there is absolutely no way a common man can get to any conclusion. Perception matters.
 
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ISI didnt kill Kennedy .. but whoever did also has the credit of the world's most political assassinations on American soil and rest of the world.

by the way. does anyone remember David Kelly? what a shame that it wasnt ISI that killed him but it was an organisation that calls the other one its cousin (the one that killed Kennedy). by the way, that Kennedy killer organisation also has the hand in getting Shah Faisal killed too.
shame, ISI missed that one too.

coming back to Hamid Gul's ISI, he is a gem for the western media, he says everything they want him to say and then use it as a proof about how dangerous Pakistan is. he is much like the "selfless and patriotic" Dr Qadir Khan who is so selfless and virtuous that he is ever to willing to give interviews to the foreign media and tell them everything they want to know about Pakistan's nuclear secrets. now thats charity, willing to give the secrets away for free to the world because the knowledge should be a free river flowing for anyone who is seeking it (and if that means punishing who exposed him then so be it). he must thank god that he is not an Iranian scientist. but then again maybe the ones who have killed Iranians might have given it a thought and would have decided that this metalergist is taking too much credit for himself due to a clever PR he setup like Hamid Gul (although it was Gen Akhtar Abdul Rehman aka the silent soldier) no one knew about Dr Summar Mubarak Mund, say this name in front of Dr Qadir and see his face. sorry drifting away.

Lal masjid oh yea, that was a disgrace, much bigger that OBL because it was in our face. those guys had already kileld 2 rangers officers before the operation. now the burka Mullah is back leading the prayers. sometimes I really wish we had saudi rulers in pakistan for such people.

---------- Post added at 05:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------

Dude there is absolutely no way a common man can get to any conclusion. Perception matters.

yup thats called popular opinion. facts and truth be damned

but then again, where there is smoke there is fire.
 
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ISI scared people as they broke USSR
ISI was nothing but an intelligence agency on rent during afghan war.

ISI did what the US want. US safeguarded their interests during afghan war, whereas our greedy generals were buzi in making money trough drug and weapon trade.
Strategic issues have never been the priority of ISI. Political manupulations in the country is the region of ISI interest.

Have a look at the following mentioned priorities of ISI:
- To rescue raymond Devis
- The organize memo Drama
- To organize candle light Meetings between boss and the Mansoor Aijaz (the infamous Qayadani US citizen with Jew wife).
- To hunt down US enemies in FATA, hand over them to uncle and earn valueable foreign exchange for the country
- To bribe politicians
- Patronize political puppets Like (IJI, Q league, Dafa-EPakistan Council and so on.)
- Patronize Jihadi /Militant wings (Jamat- Dawa, Jaish-e-Muhammad, Harkat-ul Mujahideen, Haqqani Network etc.etc).
- To pin point targets to US for drone strikes
- To kill and disappear Baloch Nationalists
 
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It may be limited to low ranking operatives, but as a thinking man I find it impossible to believe that weapons could have been imported into Lal Masjid (located very near ISI HQRs), attack on GHQ, and Osama’s stay near PMA Kakul could have happened without any one in the ISI knowing about it or unable to stop it. And this is supposed to be one of best secret services in the world!!!

No I don’t have any ISI phobia. Call me what you like but I don’t believe in the kind of patriotism that Zaid Hamid preaches. Based on the examples I have quote above, I simply believe that either some of the ISI operatives are pro Talban or they are incompetent.

I quite agree with you that ISI is suppose to be one of the best intelligence agency in the world, apart from CIA, ex KGB, Mossad, MI, RAW to name a few. (you can add the names of your own choice if you like, no bars)
Now I won’t list the failures of any of the above mentioned agencies, for leg pulling isn’t the aim of this thread. I leave it to you to Google it. Just write “(agency name) failures” and do a search. I am sure you’ll find out that none of the agencies, no matter how old or potent they are or were in their times, had eluded failure.
That doesn’t mean that they were party to it failure as a conspiracy nor does it mean that they claimed themselves to be like God, all knowing. At best they were just humans trying to do a difficult job of gathering intelligence in the best manner they could.
In case of ISI you named a few failures, out of many more, which could be listed here but again that is not the aim. Let’s not be so harsh in judging them, for they are also like any other intelligence agency in the world. NOT PERFECT
 
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If it wasn't for ISI, all Pakistanis would be serving Indians tea and polishing their shoes.

Be grateful for ISI and Pakistan Army.
 
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There are 101 intelligence agencies working around the globe, doing all kind of legal and not so legal works in the line of duty. But surprisingly enough the only agency in the spot light all the time, is ISI. Why so? Why we don’t discuss other agencies in the main stream media like ISI is discussed? All the honourable members try to shoot down ISI whenever its discussed in the forums

The answer if you want is simple. They are afraid of it and want to pull it down

Good or bad... the work of ISI within Pakistan is domain of its ppl and its govt. So ppl plz give it a rest
ISI has to conduct not on intelligence operations but also a intensive counter intelligence operations. Pakistan's strategic position has attracted the interest of alot of players around the globe. US,India,Israel even at times Russia, Iranian agencies are conducting their intelligence operations in Pakistan. Hell even the Norwegian and German Intelligence agencies are conducting operations in Pakistan (many other we dont even know) so its very obvious that it attracts media attention. Even CIA attracts a lot of it since their operational spectrum is very broad. There is nothing good or bad about it, these are all rules of the game. Despite all my personal differences on different matters, I must credit them for the efforts they make given the number of counterparts they face and given their limited technological capabilities.
 
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