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Is there something called an Indus Valley Hinduism?

A question arose a few hours ago about the nature of Hinduism, and whether it was the same in the Indus Valley and in the rest of India. Apparently some observers believe that there was a fundamental difference between the type of Hindu religious practice in the Indus Valley, and that elsewhere, and they attributed it to an amalgamation of the IVC and the culture of the Aryan-speaking immigrants from central Asia.

It is most disconcerting to read the generally approving comments of those who are not Hindus themselves, and to find that they have been impressed by the astonishing collection of misunderstood observations made by an observer in his note on the subject.

This note is to start the new thread, and to stop heart-burn among our friends because they are unable to stop what they started. We can start by copying relevant posts from the Rajput, Jats and Gujjars thread into this one, and discussing the issues raised over here. I would rather leave that thread to the circular argument that is going on in there.

@Cobra Arbok
@Cookie Monster
@Chhatrapati
@jbgt90 - get well soon
@M. Sarmad
@MUSTAKSHAF
@Nilgiri
@saiyan0321
@Sam.
@snow lake
@Talwar e Pakistan
@Tea addict
@TMA


One does not need to practice religion to hold a Doctorate in religion. I find your argument sentimental at best on neutral grounds, but you know this is not the place for it. :lol:
 
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I wish.:) No, I'm a Malayali. But I do know some Tamil guys who were kind enough to share some aspects about the practices there.

Mallus are very close to us hehe. Cheras were one of the 3 named dynasties of Tamilakam after all. Split between Tamil and Malayalam is the most recent of south indian languages.

If we look at the Rg Veda, it wont take long to realise, that Hinduism evolved; from the earliest mandalas to the comparatively newer ones, there is a gigantic difference in understanding about 'God'. From the primordial forces of nature, more and more emphasis were put on a concept of one supreme entity, that itself rather flourished in the Upanishads as pure consciousness, something the Buddhists love to call pure mind.
Six schools of philosophies sprouted from the vedas, based on different interpretations of it. What we call Hinduism today, is more or less a collection of all these six and their innumerable offshoots.
Unfortunately, our understanding so far about IVC is so vague till today we can not with firm conviction say what exact religious belief they practised. My own opinion would be, rather than calling it Hinduism (which would be too early to say), we better look at other religious belief systems in the contemporary civilizations. It is more likely that IVC's religious belief must had more similarity with the prevalent belief system of the contemporary world, rather than what we call Hinduism today.

Absolutely overjoyed you are back in the forum...first @jbgt90 and now you? :dance3:

I'll attempt to answer this I see attempt by Mr. Nilofar Abbasi, dubious at best with half knowledge on what he knows.


This I have already explained, both Indian Hindus and Pakistani Hindus, whoever is left following Dharma, practice the same. If not you're free to prove me wrong, I'll be more than happy to know different practices.


On one side the author says, Indus valley civilization collapsed, then says, they synthesized with the migrating Aryavartis. Anyway, a lot is not known about the time yet. Vedas weren't written during that time, so an accurate cronology of the age of Veda is still unknown. It was an oral tradition for a brief period. Besides there is nothing in Vedas that indicates it's time frame.


Sorry who? These are kingdom sometimes span as much as 500 years in their existence. Also, carefully missing out Panchala, Videha, Kuru, to name a few;).



The dubious part. One god no idolatory, ate beef, buried the dead.
One god, which is a self contradictory, then why worship Indra, Mitra, Varuna if it advocates monotheism. (It does, in a way, but not by forbidding anything).

Ate beef, yes they probably ate beef, but forbidding meat especially cow meat came way later when the sacredness was associated based on an ongoing practice of consuming it's milk after mothers milk. So, they thought killing cow is same as killing your own mother. This feeling cemented strong and then there was epics associated with it when coming to the epics.

Third, buried dead. It is believed that Human body is made of five elements, Earth, Air, Water, Fire and energy(life). Now, the Rig veda give a detailed explanation on how to burn the body of a departed person.
Rigveda 10.16 Agni, consume him not entirely, afflict him, not scatter, burn his skin not his body, when you have rendered him, send him to his fathers, ..... goes on to say how the body is turned to ashes, using woods/earth, then to water, ultimately the air to the plants, or the organism.

In reality, there wasn't a one single practice, but burning is considered as pure, because of the belief that fire is pure, it cleanse all the impurities without getting impured, unlike water, air or soil. Hence people prefer to be burned.

Vedas are hymns, they are not poems. These hymns are chanted for the good of the public/self. These are not philosophies or stories directions. So, one must be ignorant to think it has details on social customs, or caste system. Imagine someone chanting a hymn on caste system or how one should lead a life.:sarcastic:


True that. But this cotnradicts with the previous comment made, that, there wasn't a social division. There was, Mlecchas who were outcasts i.e, those who had completely different structure to Vedas.


Vedic gods also include Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma, Saraswati.

I can find equivalent gods like Thor, a Norse god, who is very similar to Indra. With strikingly similar characteristics. Should I say, it's adopted from here? These are just theories with etymological similarities, their characteristics are so different.


Etymological similarities, they don't have any similarities in practice, Avestans had a completely different text than sanskrit. Their beliefs the fundamental of all is they advocate Monotheism. Mitra is not a god and Mitrha in Veda sounds completely different.


Meh! This may be true, but then again, I haven't completely read the vedas (translation of course). It is very complicated that, translation are subject to a lot of interpretations.

The word Dravida has no mention in any of the Vedas, this term came some 4000 years later the composition of Vedas. Also, there are no mention of Gangetic tribes. By the late vedic periods, these had become Kingdoms.
By that time, agriculture wasn't new. It diversed from mere farming to healing techniques. Including details of surgical equipment and several spells for healing, etc... which doesn't look too nomadic to me.

But given the amount of logical errors as a whole. This is tolerable.


This is where it gets into a complete joke.


:disagree:
Brahma, Vishnu Rig Veda 1.154, Shiva (Rudra) are mentioned in different Vedas, their purpose is exactly as mentioned in Vedas and continued onto the epics.

:lol: Mlechas are anyone who is not part of vedic group. This is authors on creation towards the end, his conclusions are getting comical. And no, Krishna is no dravidian god, nor Aryan god. Not going any further, this has crossed the threshold of fallacy.


Pass


I want to know, these Zoroastrian kings who ruled Indus Valley and their influence on Vedas. Must be something new. @padamchen ? On the contrary, the introduction of Buddhism, has caused the decline of vedic beliefs for a brief period.


A non Vedic diety, who most probably is a sage. And the connection with Avestan is cannot be confirmed.

Yes, Bhawani is wife of Shiva.


You can find such graveyards here too. Lord Ram and a vast number of people did a water burial. Krishna ended up on the earth. The list goes on and on. These are no conclusive proofs of anything.


@Nilgiri you want to add something to this quote. I have no clue on where to start, this is incorrent in a lot of levels. I think, this you and them have been debunked long before. Whether the author read this or not.

Will have to look thru this post and the entire thread a bit later and give a few responses. I am late to the party again....
 
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Mallus are very close to us hehe. Cheras were one of the 3 named dynasties of Tamilakam after all. Split between Tamil and Malayalam is the most recent of south indian languages.



Absolutely overjoyed you are back in the forum...first @jbgt90 and now you? :dance3:



Will have to look thru this post and the entire thread a bit later and give a few responses. I am late to the party again....

Things are looking good again, Champ. Good people are coming back, and I venture to say that the great posts exchanged with minimal nationalist feeling interfering with the logic and reason has something to do with it.

I really wish you had been there from the outset.

BTW, DO NOT forget to read the path-breaking paper by Parpola. It is a MUST READ, and thanks to @MUSTAKSHAF for digging it out and reproducing it.

One does not need to practice religion to hold a Doctorate in religion. I find your argument sentimental at best on neutral grounds, but you know this is not the place for it. :lol:

LOL.

Sab ke samne mere patloon utaroge, Bhai mere?
 
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Things are looking good again, Champ. Good people are coming back, and I venture to say that the great posts exchanged with minimal nationalist feeling interfering with the logic and reason has something to do with it.

I really wish you had been there from the outset.

BTW, DO NOT forget to read the path-breaking paper by Parpola. It is a MUST READ, and thanks to @MUSTAKSHAF for digging it out and reproducing it.



LOL.

Sab ke samne mere patloon utaroge, Bhai mere?

I typically avoid these threads like the plague because this isn't exactly an academic environment. Even on good behavior, feelings and biases will seep through the well behaved callous exterior of all parties.
 
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I typically avoid these threads like the plague because this isn't exactly an academic environment. Even on good behavior, feelings and biases will seep through the well behaved callous exterior of all parties.

Doesn't matter.

Historians and students of history are used to bias and to dealing with bias; they call it historiography, and take its effects into account. No harm in arguing a position.

You are right, this isn't an academic environment. But there's no harm in trying to inject some of that objectivity and dispassionate consideration; we don't have to get it 100% right, all we have to do is to improve it from the housewives squabbling at a community tap kind of atmosphere that tends to build up.

I hope you will agree that we achieved that limited goal.

Now, jump in, it's real fun. Be assured of goodwill and of an open-minded consideration of all points of view.

PS: DON'T forget to read the Parpola paper reproduced by MUSTAKSHAN. It's a classic and raises goose-pimples.
 
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I really wish you had been there from the outset.

Yes so do I...but I have more time now...and much less time for this kind of stuff back then haha...such is life. We all just have to make do best we can with the cards we are dealt.
 
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I agree with what you said. I would like to continue this topic with you but due to lack of interest in history (specually indus valley history) , i am unable to do so. Though i started studying hinduism , done with the ramayn, would start gita next (soon). Will catch you in a year on this topic :partay:



And i have a Paper tomorrow. Good luck for tomorrow :tup:
Let me add some confusion to your thoughts , probably you read ramayana from a one sided perspective, a winners perspective to be precise. Theres also another side to it, https://www.scoopwhoop.com/a-demon-for-us-but-a-hero-for-sri-lankans-ravana/

The Ramayana itself conveys something of the savagery that marked Rama and Lakshman both; Rama in his assassination of Bali while Bali was fighting his younger brother Sugriv in a fight to the finish, Lakshman in slaughtering an unarmed Meghnad while he was praying. And then Rama goes on to state bluntly, after recovering his chattel, that her virtue was suspect after her years of captivity in Ravana's Lanka.

Did you read the details of the killing of Meghnad in the cave? How Hanuman finally pissed on the sacred fire and got Meghnad to rise to fight, unarmed, against an armed couple of 'heroes'?

I'll surely get back on this.
theres no such thing as black & white but only shades of grey.
May be you must be knowing more about Durga.

https://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/dur...ur-bengali-ahalya-karl-marx/story/1/6904.html

Things get even more interesting as to why name a city after a demon who got killed? shouldnt we name it after the god who won?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ipped-by-descendants/articleshow/51218831.cms

Every book I read about India's ancient history it brings in more confusion than clarity bcos every one is only interested in peddling their own stuff rather than presenting any facts.
 
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Let me add some confusion to your thoughts , probably you read ramayana from a one sided perspective, a winners perspective to be precise. Theres also another side to it, https://www.scoopwhoop.com/a-demon-for-us-but-a-hero-for-sri-lankans-ravana/


theres no such thing as black & white but only shades of grey.
May be you must be knowing more about Durga.

https://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/dur...ur-bengali-ahalya-karl-marx/story/1/6904.html

Things get even more interesting as to why name a city after a demon who got killed? shouldnt we name it after the god who won?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ipped-by-descendants/articleshow/51218831.cms

Every book I read about India's ancient history it brings in more confusion than clarity bcos every one is only interested in peddling their own stuff rather than presenting any facts.

Haven't seen you around in a while. Welcome back.
 
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Let me add some confusion to your thoughts , probably you read ramayana from a one sided perspective, a winners perspective to be precise. Theres also another side to it, https://www.scoopwhoop.com/a-demon-for-us-but-a-hero-for-sri-lankans-ravana/


theres no such thing as black & white but only shades of grey.
May be you must be knowing more about Durga.

https://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/dur...ur-bengali-ahalya-karl-marx/story/1/6904.html

Things get even more interesting as to why name a city after a demon who got killed? shouldnt we name it after the god who won?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ipped-by-descendants/articleshow/51218831.cms

Every book I read about India's ancient history it brings in more confusion than clarity bcos every one is only interested in peddling their own stuff rather than presenting any facts.

You do appreciate that the epics are not history? In spite of their being part of Itishas.

As for history not presenting facts, that is a puzzling proposition. Whatever do you mean? Every book I have read has had a fair mixture of factual presentation and ideation.

Let me add some confusion to your thoughts , probably you read ramayana from a one sided perspective, a winners perspective to be precise. Theres also another side to it, https://www.scoopwhoop.com/a-demon-for-us-but-a-hero-for-sri-lankans-ravana/


theres no such thing as black & white but only shades of grey.
May be you must be knowing more about Durga.

https://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/dur...ur-bengali-ahalya-karl-marx/story/1/6904.html

This remains puzzling.

How did you get shades of grey, when the poem we are talking about very clearly the warrior-like qualities of Meghnad, against the treachery of Vibhishan, and Lakshman and Hanuman?

And how do you connect it up to the topic, whether or not there is a distinct branch of Hinduism known as Indus Valley Hinduism?

Things get even more interesting as to why name a city after a demon who got killed? shouldnt we name it after the god who won?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ipped-by-descendants/articleshow/51218831.cms

Why would those who identify with the 'demon' (your term, and the term of the Brahmin ubermensch) abandon his memory and worship the god (goddess?) who won?

Every book I read about India's ancient history it brings in more confusion than clarity bcos every one is only interested in peddling their own stuff rather than presenting any facts.

You do remember that all this is not history?
 
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You are right, this isn't an academic environment. But there's no harm in trying to inject some of that objectivity and dispassionate consideration; we don't have to get it 100% right, all we have to do is to improve it from the housewives squabbling at a community tap kind of atmosphere that tends to build up.
It is still worth doing as compared to mudslinging.
 
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@Nilgiri you want to add something to this quote. I have no clue on where to start, this is incorrent in a lot of levels.

It is indeed incorrect. Shiva has always been identified with Rudra in the Vedas by vast majority of commentators. Vishnu finds mention too (he is just not as prominent as the main vedic deities). The transition of why they became more important over time rather than the original pantheon in the Vedas (and also the creator God Brahma*) is of course a study of the Upanishads, Brahmanas and then the Puranas.

So I don't get where he gets that there was no vedic connection for them. There is plenty of fallacy/assumptions in rest of it too.

He seems to have confused that because Vedic and Puranic deities may have subsumed earlier ANI/ASI deities in various ways (example how Vishnu and the greater Narayana arguably subsumed** Mayon/Mal in Sangam era in Tamilakam) ....that they suddenly are stripped of all connection to the Vedas somehow (especially if you read the Upanishads and Brahmanas). Thats quite ludicrous....about the same as saying the Roman Gods stopped becoming Greek when they were simply adopted by the Romans (and given new names)...with completely different cognate names (i.e Ares sounds nothing like Mars....given Greek and Latin diverged quite early in the indo-european family...though they have influenced each other's vocab since)

In fact in TN, we still see the names like Perumal, Tirumal etc (peru and tiru are big and honoured prefixes respectively) of Mal when referring to Vishnu (indicative of the earlier local forms continuing in name). Similar thing when we come to the name Muruga/Murugan (and his earlier pre-puranic form/name Ceyon...same root cognate as cehappu i.e Red) which has no etymological root in Sanskrit...but has been similarly subsumed into Kartikeya/Skanda.

Also the most preferred name for Ganesh/Ganapathy/Vinayak in TN by far is Pillaiyar (honoured son)....does not mean just because the name itself is not found in Sanskrit puranas, that the gods are different. In this case though Ganesh is definitely post-vedic deity that arises in Puranic Saivist literature.

Nothing much to add to rest of your post, I will just observe this thread mostly for now.

*The greater relevance of the pantheon (Indra, Agni etc) over the creator god (Prajapati) which was later subsumed by Brahma... was already largely established in the Vedas already

**Even this is not a certain absolute thing as we are still finding evidence of earlier Sanskrit/Dravidian interaction and cross-pollination.
 
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