IRIAF | News and Discussions

[VEVAK]

The Kowsar and the programs/variants that preceded it at worst were test bed programs and at best were modernization programs at keeping the F-5 flying for another 2-3 decades.

It wasn’t a serious program designed to put up an air superiority fighter. At the end of the day you cannot change physics. F-5 was designed as a cheap export light fighter/trainer for wars against Soviet fighters. Quantity over quality.

You cannot take that plane and suddenly make it an air superiority fighter anymore you can take a truck and make it a formula one car.

I think a better analogy would have been changing a Go-Kart into a Formula-1

Main problem I have with Iran's F-5 program is more about Iran's refusal to move on past the program and towards something bigger with bigger more powerful engines which will force you to push boundaries of technology and industry in Iran

If your weapons industry isn't pushing the boundaries of science, industrial and technological growth in your country then it's really not doing it's job properly.

You may force yourself to start mining and producing Ti, high grade Nickel & other alloys and other composites over a fighter program but in the long run it's effects on your civilian industries will be far greater than any fighter same goes with the development of any advanced part, tools or gear you use on it or to produce it, be it an advanced data link, helmet mounted display, AI hardware and software, IRST, turbofan engines, Ti casting or 3d printing.... at the end of the day and in the long run the overall effect such a program will have on your civilian industries will be far greater than any fighter jet and that's what makes spending billons on a domestic fighter program a worth while effort. BUT it can ONLY be a worth while effort if your actually pushing the boundaries of science, technology and industry in your country.
But if you chose a fighter that's not really pushing you to be innovate and your standing around for some other industry to produce this and that so you can shove inside or use to build your fighter with the result being a go kart of a fighter then clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with such a program....

 

[Shawnee]

Look how an Indian aviation author defends Tejas program:

——

What Tejas program has given India:

1) It is 75.5% (very impressive) indigenous in 2016 and this is very likely to go even higher. It remains a great challenge and a big learning and experience process for our scientists and they have successfully crossed every hurdle.

2) Tejas program has taken 21–22 years (very standard) to complete the first version development (1993–2014/15).

For the interested people and people who say Tejas is 33 years old, this is the time-line for LCA program:
1984- Aeronautical Development Agency was established.
1985- IAF presented their requirements
1988-90- Design was done.
1993- Funding approved for development
1995- First Technology demonstrator
2001- First flight
2003- Sonic barrier crossed and Tejas became supersonic
2007- Limited series production started
2009- Tejas completed 1000 test flights (trials in various weather, terrain conditions and altitudes and firing different weapons were done, continuously being upgraded with 21st century technologies)
2011- certification for release to service (Initial Operation Clearance-1)
2013- Initial Operation Clearance-2
2014- Series production started
2016- Induction of first squadron into IAF

So 1988-90 and from 1993 to 2013 — 22 years to develop. From 2001 to 2013 — Evolved in this period. It's a 21st century aircraft.

3) It has literally created a big and networked aeronautics R&D, engineering and industrial ecosystem of 50+ labs, 500+ firms, a number of universities and academic institutes etc.

4) Tejas program is also arguably the cheapest 4+ generation fighter development project (only 1 billion USD). [for perspective, Gripen program took 14 billion USD in similar time].

So we can see, LCA Tejas is a big technological success and also a very important and fruitful project for India. It is one of the bests in its class in the world.
——
Kindly note that with the exception of engine and partly radar, Kowsar is a 4+ generation platform.

Heavy engines are being developed but will not come overnight.

 

[Sina-1]

Look how an Indian aviation author defends Tejas program:

——

What Tejas program has given India:

1) It is 75.5% (very impressive) indigenous in 2016 and this is very likely to go even higher. It remains a great challenge and a big learning and experience process for our scientists and they have successfully crossed every hurdle.

2) Tejas program has taken 21–22 years (very standard) to complete the first version development (1993–2014/15).

For the interested people and people who say Tejas is 33 years old, this is the time-line for LCA program:
1984- Aeronautical Development Agency was established.
1985- IAF presented their requirements
1988-90- Design was done.
1993- Funding approved for development
1995- First Technology demonstrator
2001- First flight
2003- Sonic barrier crossed and Tejas became supersonic
2007- Limited series production started
2009- Tejas completed 1000 test flights (trials in various weather, terrain conditions and altitudes and firing different weapons were done, continuously being upgraded with 21st century technologies)
2011- certification for release to service (Initial Operation Clearance-1)
2013- Initial Operation Clearance-2
2014- Series production started
2016- Induction of first squadron into IAF

So 1988-90 and from 1993 to 2013 — 22 years to develop. From 2001 to 2013 — Evolved in this period. It's a 21st century aircraft.

3) It has literally created a big and networked aeronautics R&D, engineering and industrial ecosystem of 50+ labs, 500+ firms, a number of universities and academic institutes etc.

4) Tejas program is also arguably the cheapest 4+ generation fighter development project (only 1 billion USD). [for perspective, Gripen program took 14 billion USD in similar time].

So we can see, LCA Tejas is a big technological success and also a very important and fruitful project for India. It is one of the bests in its class in the world.
——
Kindly note that with the exception of engine and partly radar, Kowsar is a 4+ generation platform.

Heavy engines are being developed but will not come overnight.

IMO, Tejas is a waste in terms of a military asset. However, the tejas program, as you have pointed to, has been priceless for India. Worth every penny for Indian industry! And future fighter projects will be developed much more efficiently.

 

[Raghfarm007]

I agree that Tejas has been a waste of time and money....just like Arjune tank.

India is too poor, undeveloed and corrupt for these projects to ever succeed. The tea seller that became their prime minister only made things worse....

If the indians ever were close to makin a decent weapon..... the Russians would give them the same weaons for free to kill off the project.

 

[VEVAK]

A bit of history:
When Iran made the first Toloue engine, senior members of the time did not know whether to be happy or upset.

It was our first jet engine. However the lifespan was one hour!! Production rate was also low.
Efficiency was so low that materials would malfunction in one hour. It took years to improve it and the speed of progress is acceptable, when you compare to China and India. Main Chinese engine still has Russian controller parts per my knowledge. I hope I am wrong.

Can TOT help Iran?
Looks up Tejas, as the legend of TOTs. Barely an acceptable assembly job. Note that we lag India in foreign relations, money and population.
Look up Kaveri.
I hope we can have collaborations with China, and NK.

Questions:
Do we need a better airforce? Absolutely.
Is Kowsar a good fighter? No.
Are we on the correct path with Kowsar? We are doing OK.

Finally:
Will we lose a war because of not having good fighters?

Not having good fighters is not among the top 10 reasons of losing a war in Iran. I am more concerned of losing 20 Su-57 on day 1 of a war.

Tolue, Owj, F-5 program are all projects started by Shahid Sattari and if he was still alive and if we were on the right track we would have moved passed these projects a decade ago. Except for the Tolue which has had upgrades and design modifications over the years and is more than sufficient for it's task...
And in terms of Mini Jet engines we are at more than acceptable level because we didn't restrict ourselves to reverse engineering and actually got involved in design and development.

And if you wanna know if Iran is on the right track just research the history and development of Jet engines from 1940 to 1970 and compare that to what Iran has done over the past 30 years with main deference being that the vast majority of the trial and error parts of R&D and design has already been done for you. Iran needs to look at reverse engineering as training wheels and at some point those training wheels need to come off and if at some point someone doesn't yank them off you'll be stuck with them.

What needs to change?

1.Iranian leadership needs to stop looking at a fighter program as a program strictly created to develop a weapon rather than a program whos actual goal is the development of Science, Technology, Industries, Human resources,... and such a program needs to be managed and funded accordingly

2. Iran's Air Force needs to acknowledge and accept that the R&D in mining, metallurgy & composites is their (fighter programs) responsibility as is pushing the boundaries of science, tech, human resources and industrial development in those and various other fields to the countries limits.

3. The only way to truly get a valuable fighter program going in Iran is by starting a joint Air Force - IRGC fighter program in the defense industry because the IRGC has both the capability and is legally able to start mining and start industrial development in various fields that don't necessarily restrict it to a fighter program

4. Iran needs to set goals and limits on any fighter program based on a proper threat assessment. Small, light and limited ranged fighters with no Air refueling capability have little to no use in a country the size of Iran and Iran doesn't have the budget to build and maintain 4-5 different fighter platforms.
So you need one platform that can be modified to be used for Air Superiority, Strike, Attack, CAS, Multi Roll, Air Refueling, Recon, ECM....

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

And it continues ! The worst topic of the forum with speakers who think they are experts that they are not.

The Kowsar plane is a big step forward and according to Iranian authorities, the kowsar has improved even further since its construction. We don't know what missile and bomb are used on this new Kowsar. In addition, Iranian pilots have this aircraft.

The Kowsar in a global tactic inside the Iranian territory, is very good aircraft. We have the much improved Tomcat and the much improved f-4 SM too. Iran works miracles with a small military budget and heavy sanctions.

Well done Iran

 

[VEVAK]

And it continues ! The worst topic of the forum with speakers who think they are experts that they are not.

The Kowsar plane is a big step forward and according to Iranian authorities, the kowsar has improved even further since its construction. We don't know what missile and bomb are used on this new Kowsar. In addition, Iranian pilots have this aircraft.

The Kowsar in a global tactic inside the Iranian territory, is very good aircraft. We have the much improved Tomcat and the much improved f-4 SM too. Iran works miracles with a small military budget and heavy sanctions.

Well done Iran

First off the fact that Iran has upgraded it's F-4's and F-14's into more capable fighters has nothing to do with the fact that the Kowsar/F-5 is not a platform worth pursuing for use as anything other than an Advanced Supersonic Trainer.

2ndly do you honestly think Iranian authorities are going to come and say that this production line was created because the F-5 was the cheapest and easiest fighter platform to reverse engineer? Clearly NOT!

Neither the F-5 nor the Owj engine are good choices to pursue at Iran's level of technology because at the end of the day due to their size and limitations they don't leave you room for improvements where the eventual result of such improvements will be worth the cost.
And every second Iranian engineers spend on producing the J85 is a second taken away from pursuing something that would actually have an effective on the outcome of any potential conflict and is a second taken away from them pursuing tech that pushes Iran to the edges of its scientific, tech & industrial capabilities.

Choosing the F-5 to reverse engineer in the early 90's was the right choice for Iran at that time given Iran's infrastructure, human resources and industrial capabilities of that time but it is NOT the right choice today because many aspects of that platform is well below Iran's current and potential future capabilities.

 

[aryobarzan]

First off the fact that Iran has upgraded it's F-4's and F-14's into more capable fighters has nothing to do with the fact that the Kowsar/F-5 is not a platform worth pursuing for use as anything other than an Advanced Supersonic Trainer.

2ndly do you honestly think Iranian authorities are going to come and say that this production line was created because the F-5 was the cheapest and easiest fighter platform to reverse engineer? Clearly NOT!

Neither the F-5 nor the Owj engine are good choices to pursue at Iran's level of technology because at the end of the day due to their size and limitations they don't leave you room for improvements where the eventual result of such improvements will be worth the cost.
And every second Iranian engineers spend on producing the J85 is a second taken away from pursuing something that would actually have an effective on the outcome of any potential conflict and is a second taken away from them pursuing tech that pushes Iran to the edges of its scientific, tech & industrial capabilities.

Choosing the F-5 to reverse engineer in the early 90's was the right choice for Iran at that time given Iran's infrastructure, human resources and industrial capabilities of that time but it is NOT the right choice today because many aspects of that platform is well below Iran's current and potential future capabilities.

I agree with all your points about "Iran should not spend much effort on F5 any more and should move on"....My question is .....what is it that makes you think Iran is stuck on F5 and not moving past it....is it the limited production of Kowsar that gives you the idea....Why not do a limited production of Kowsar ..it is developed so why not produce a few...it can be used for what it is (trainer or CAS or ...) . No one claimed it is the end of the line.....Your points on developing aviation infrastructure is well justified but how do U know they are not doing it as we speak....

 

[TheImmortal]

I agree with all your points about "Iran should not spend much effort on F5 any more and should move on"....My question is .....what is it that makes you think Iran is stuck on F5 and not moving past it....is it the limited production of Kowsar that gives you the idea....Why not do a limited production of Kowsar ..it is developed so why not produce a few...it can be used for what it is (trainer or CAS or ...) . No one claimed it is the end of the line.....Your points on developing aviation infrastructure is well justified but how do U know they are not doing it as we speak....

Because Iran has plenty of F-5’s already. I have already written that the Iranian Air Force budget is less than 1B!

Lastly Iran hasn’t been able to make a jump in tech because it hasn’t had ACCESS to 4++ fighter. People think you can magically jump from 3rd gen to 4++ without examples to learn off of. Even in age of computers this process is time consuming and costly.

Even Iran’s own officials have said they need access to modern fighters to develop their own programs. There’s only so much you can learn from technology put in a F-14, F-5, and F-4. Eventually you need new technology to learn from.

That is why Iran’s drone industry is so far ahead of its aerospace industry. It has had access to leading drone technology from Israel and USA via captured drones.

 

[aryobarzan]

Because Iran has plenty of F-5’s already. I have already written that the Iranian Air Force budget is less than 1B!

Lastly Iran hasn’t been able to make a jump in tech because it hasn’t had ACCESS to 4++ fighter. People think you can magically jump from 3rd gen to 4++ without examples to learn off of. Even in age of computers this process is time consuming and costly.

Even Iran’s own officials have said they need access to modern fighters to develop their own programs. There’s only so much you can learn from technology put in a F-14, F-5, and F-4. Eventually you need new technology to learn from.

That is why Iran’s drone industry is so far ahead of its aerospace industry. It has had access to leading drone technology from Israel and USA via captured drones.

why would Iran always need "Tech" from "Others"..do those "Others" have more brain..I know they have more money but why spend billions to buy few planes to get "Tech" rather than produce your own Tech with those billions (If you had it to begin with)....Yes it would take more time but at the end it is "Iran's Tech" not borrowed "foreign Tech" ...

 

[WudangMaster]

why would Iran always need "Tech" from "Others"..do those "Others" have more brain..I know they have more money but why spend billions to buy few planes to get "Tech" rather than produce your own Tech with those billions (If you had it to begin with)....Yes it would take more time but at the end it is "Iran's Tech" not borrowed "foreign Tech" ...

There is also a time factor as the older legacy aircraft can only be maintained for so long a proper replacement will be needed sooner than later. Consider the time from a prototype to testing to serial production and at a limited rate per year which might leave serious gaps in IRIAF. No one is advocating a giant order, but a stop gap order would not be unreasonable.
Also, there is simply not enough resources being allocated to this endeavor and IRIAF should not even involved in the design and building anymore as entities like IAIO/HESA have proven very capable in this since after the imposed war. IRIAF should become leaner and human focused (producing top notch pilots and personnel) and let HESA take over the heavy maintenance/overhaul/upgrade of aircraft and design future aircraft.

On a related note, I am curious now as to who is upgrading the tomcat fleet to the AM standard; is it IRIAF solely or is IAIO/HESA involved or is it a joint venture?
Also, did IRGC-ASF upgrade the SU-22 solely or did they collaborate with IAIO/HESA? How many entities are there in the country that can do this kind of work with aircraft such as rebuild, overhaul, upgrade, & build from scratch?

 

[TheImmortal]

why would Iran always need "Tech" from "Others"..do those "Others" have more brain..I know they have more money but why spend billions to buy few planes to get "Tech" rather than produce your own Tech with those billions (If you had it to begin with)....Yes it would take more time but at the end it is "Iran's Tech" not borrowed "foreign Tech" ...

How are you going to build an AL-31 when you don’t even know where to start.

You could have the worlds best supercomputer and it would still struggle to build you a jet engine.

Honestly sometimes people need to use their brain on this board more. You can’t just tell a group of engineers “build me an AL-31 like engine” + throw some money and then wait x amount of time and it’s ready.

I seriously question if you think r&d works like an iPhone video game. Because that is the type of vibe your post gives off.

 

[aryobarzan]

How are you going to build an AL-31 when you don’t even know where to start.

You could have the worlds best supercomputer and it would still struggle to build you a jet engine.

Honestly sometimes people need to use their brain on this board more. You can’t just tell a group of engineers “build me an AL-31 like engine” + throw some money and then wait x amount of time and it’s ready.

I seriously question if you think r&d works like an iPhone video game. Because that is the type of vibe your post gives off.

may be you are correct and AL-31 was indeed built by the Aliens!...how can a human beings with primitive computers even think to build an AL-31..in the 1980's ..it must have been something that came out of Area 51.

I know Iranian engineers mastered the nuclear cycle and I suggest you read how difficult an enterprise that was..they also managed to build Missiles that entered a room 700 kilometer away..,,My friend never be afraid of the complexity of a job.....Tehrani Moghadam once told his team..."if they can build it so can we and we have the advantage of knowing that it can be done ..they did not know that".

My last words..."HOW DO YOU EAT AN ELEPHANT!....ONE SPOON AT A TIME"...

 

[WudangMaster]

may be you are correct and AL-31 was indeed built by the Aliens!...how can a human beings with primitive computers even think to build an AL-31..in the 1980's ..it must have been something that came out of Area 51.

I know Iranian engineers mastered the nuclear cycle and I suggest you read how difficult an enterprise that was..they also managed to build Missiles that entered a room 700 kilometer away..,,My friend never be afraid of the complexity of a job.....Tehrani Moghadam once told his team..."if they can build it so can we and we have the advantage of knowing that it can be done ..they did not know that".

My last words..."HOW DO YOU EAT AN ELEPHANT!....ONE SPOON AT A TIME"...

There is a youtube channel called Science and Futurism with Isaac Arthur and one of his favorite quotes is: "If brute force is not working, you are not using enough of it"
If there are enough resources thrown at the problem of lack of a domestic heavy fighter, then yes Iran could build F-22/SU-57 & better but there is not enough resources being dedicated to this endeavor to produce meaningful results in the needed time frame given. Add to that the missiles and sam systems and naval assets also demand resources so it would not be a bad idea to bring in new aircraft with TOT.
I would even advocate the occasional purchase of new radars just for the intent of copying while also building upon domestic capabilities. Iran should unapologetically and aggressively seek to acquire and copy new tech in any way possible, like China is known to do. They will always seek out what others make for further knowledge while also wisely building themselves up.

 

[aryobarzan]

There is a youtube channel called Science and Futurism with Isaac Arthur and one of his favorite quotes is: "If brute force is not working, you are not using enough of it"
If there are enough resources thrown at the problem of lack of a domestic heavy fighter, then yes Iran could build F-22/SU-57 & better but there is not enough resources being dedicated to this endeavor to produce meaningful results in the needed time frame given. Add to that the missiles and sam systems and naval assets also demand resources so it would not be a bad idea to bring in new aircraft with TOT.
I would even advocate the occasional purchase of new radars just for the intent of copying while also building upon domestic capabilities. Iran should unapologetically and aggressively seek to acquire and copy new tech in any way possible, like China is known to do. They will always seek out what others make for further knowledge while also wisely building themselves up.

Yes I agree Iran does not have the financial resources at this time considering all of the other things going on..but Iran has the time and the brains so they can take their time.... defence wise Iran is fully covered for the time being may be for a decade ..that is enough time to allow Iran to develop a solid base for its heavy aircraft industry..no disagreements there. And I fully agree the job is not for the Iranian air force to develop aircraft. They can do the requirements. Leave the development to a dedicated organization..... and while all this is going on...Buy. steal or beg for Tech if they give it to you..I doubts that but hey an Israeli Pilot can always be persuaded to fly his F-35 to Iran and receive his fat payout cheque and his citizenship (not a bad deal if you ask me..lol)