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IRIAF | News and Discussions

1. Do you think Iran can't detect(Not target) Stealth Aircraft & Cruise missiles using Early Warning Systems before they can fly 100's of km into Iranian Air Space? If so & if you believe in Swarm attacks then the idea that SAM's are harder to destroy is a miss conception because a ready Air Force will scramble it's jet.
2. Any fixed (radar) based Sam like the Hawk, Sayad-1, SA-1, SA-2, SA-5 systems will have it's radars taken out. And long before they send in an Air Force they'll have cheap armed UAV's flying at high altitudes to clear a path searching for mobile radar systems & SAM's and in both cases finding Aircrafts with Air refueling capability that have scrambled into the Air is much harder to find
3. Would a country build a stronger & more protective bunker for a $100 Million USD Aircraft or a $5Million-$20 Million USD SAM Tel's? & Iran has such a limited number of S-300 that they'll likely be prime target number 1 in a US attack.
4.Any Aircraft or SAM Iran buys or builds HAS to be EMP shielded because even the US is not stupid enough to attack Iran without their use!

5.And this is the MOST important part requiring the Air Force to have R&D program that's required to design & build the most advanced fighter jet prototype within their capabilities every 2 years should be a minimum requirement. And the government just needs to provide or help them build the tools(like Vacuumed ovens of all sizes....) and materials (at least 40 tones of titanium every 2 years,...) and require their R&D team to design & build the most advanced Air Frame & Engine within their capabilities until they have something worth producing 10 years down the line. AND the most important part is the fact that this is NOT just about having an Air Force in fact the most important part is creating an intelligent & experience workforce that will later contribute to Iran's civilian sector or defense industry in various fields!

This is why the to 10 most advanced countries, who are the top 10 largest producers of the world also have the top 10 largest defense budgets (Except for Saudi Arabia that buy's it's weapons) Because there is a direct coloration between a countries defense budget & it's technological & production capability because most new technologies and achievements get either directly transferred to the civilian sector or indirectly via an experienced work force so it's NOT just about the Air Force having a bunch of new fighter Jets it's about advancing you countries capabilities and high tech workforce in various fields that will later contribute to the civilian sector

Providing the Air Force with 20tones of titanium a year & a few tools & requiring them to build the most advanced prototype within their capabilities every 2 years is not going to stop Iran from mass producing Missiles & UAVs

And honestly I would put 90% of the blame on Air Force commanders because they should have pushed the country towards Titanium production 20 years ago!

Iran's Air Force has not even built an Air Frame sufficient enough for there to be a real discussion about Missiles vs Fighter jets!

Look at what IRGC Aerospace Forces have done when it comes to Missiles and how Iran civilian Space Industry is starting to boom...
Look at what Iran's Navy has done in the past 2 decades and now Iran's Civilian Naval industry is starting to boom
All you have to do to truly comprehend it is look at the growth of facilities off Busher, Bandar Abbas, ISOICO, Bandar Anzali,... in the past 20 years!
Iran's Navy may not have the funding to build whatever it wants but the R&D they did and creating experience for their conscripts & full time personal in design & R&D created an experienced workforce who turned around and contributed to Iran's Civilian Sector which in many ways is still at it's infancy.

And this happened due to proper leadership! Iran's Navy & IRGC Aerospace forces understood and reacted to sanction as if they were at war & they understood that it may be a different type of war that they are fighting today but it is a war none the less and they responded accordingly same with Iran's Air Defense Force once they separated from the Air Force they didn't just site back and wait to be handed something

While Iran's Air Force stood back and complained about being handed equipment! Today the IRGC is more capable of building UAV's than Iran's Air Force so this is not about funding it's about proper leadership and lack of proper planning

U.S. built the F-14 in the late 60's at a time when industrial robots, computer aided precision guided cutting equipment, composite materials, 3D printers,.... didn't exist! So when Iran's Air Force was faced with sanctions they should have responded to that threat accordingly but they didn't and IRIAF hasn't built a prototype where I can sit here and argue for additional funding in fighter production over Iranian Built Missiles & UCAV



This is a PC-7
View attachment 417989

So did they install weapons on both?

He also said Iran is building a new combat aircraft by upgrading the Saegheh which is absurd and nothing but a waist of TIME and Resources!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He should be fired or they should have someone like Shamkhani come in and start up a real R&D program

IRIAF clearly took no lesson from their experience in the Iran-Iraq war which clearly showed light fighters with no Air Refueling capabilities to be quite useless!!!!!!

F-5's small radars is less capable in range than IRST, Their engines and Air Frames are just too small & weak for Air-Air refueling
And I understand building the Azarakhsh & Saegheh for R&D purposes but not to move on to a bigger and better Airframe & engine and to spend funding & resources to produce that fighter is like shooting yourself in the foot because it terms of range it wont be able to fly 300km outside Iranian Airspace with a sufficient payload so your better off using Fatteh Class Missiles, UAV's, UCAV's & cheaper cruise missiles for attack missions!

In terms of Air to Air capabilities It's lack of IRST, sufficient thrust, maneuverability, sensor & targeting capability makes it useless in Air to Air operation!

And reducing the F-5's RCS by adding V shaped stabilizers doesn't make much sense when they are required to carry their weapons externally & the reason it makes sense on the F/A-18 is 1st you need 2 stabilizers for increased yaw to get precision landing on a moving Aircraft Carrier 2ndly it reduces the height of the stabilizers without loosing yaw power.
(Other reasons include lower RCS upon returning to the carrier reduces the chances for the enemy to approximate the location of the carrier group, increase drag & control at the tail helps with better control upon decent on a carrier also gives the aircraft higher angle of attack capability
So on a carrier the benefits out way cost of increased drag which leads to higher fuel consumption, reduced payload & reduced speeds.

But aside from R&D to put V shaped stabilizers on a F-5 that already has problems with Thrust, Speed, Range & Payload is absurd!
For a country the size of Iran to produce a fighter without Air refueling capability is absurd enough!

I think any IRIAF commander that doesn't develop a new fighter prototype & a new Jet engine prototype every 2 years should be fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this guy wants a medal for putting a weapon on 50's era fighter! Even China started producing the J-7 in the 60's

SOMEONE FIRE THIS GUY!

I think Mr rozkhosh could match pdf standards as great member :partay: if he was member here . he is clearly trolling by say this even ww1 airplanes is enough for our enemies :angel:
 
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Russian Helicopters Plans Ka-226 and Ansat Assembly In Iran

Russian Aviaton » Monday April 3, 2017 18:05 MSK
Russian Helicopters and Iran’s Industrial Development and Renovation Organization (IDRO) have planned a joint venture to assemble KA-226 and Ansat light civilian helicopters, portal Defense World reported.

The Joint Venture to assemble light civilian helicopters in Iran was announced by Russian Helicopters firm last week.

A memorandum of understanding was signed by Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Boginsky and the chairman of the Board of Directors of IDRO Mansour Moazami. The document is aimed at promoting cooperation between Russia and Iran as part of the program on upgrading the Iranian helicopter fleet.

Russian Helicopters also intends to explore potential for cooperation with IDRO to develop business in the Middle East.

“We see that the demand for light helicopters is high in Iran, and the country needs them for civilian agencies. said Boginsky.

The joint venture between Russia and Iran would consider assembling light Ka-226 or Ansat helicopters. Currently, negotiations on this issue are ongoing. Iran uses almost the whole range of helicopters of this type: Mi-17, Mi-171, Mi-171E, Mi-8MTV and Mi-17V-5s.

These medium-class helicopters are used for law enforcement and to fight organized crime. Just as in other countries of the region, Russian helicopters in Iran have become known primarily as machines that allow to perform tasks in high temperatures and at high altitudes.
Russian Helicopters to test Ka-226T in Iran

Posted on August 10th, 2017 by Russian Aviation Insider in Aerospace, Russia

IMG_1-660x430-620x404.jpg


The tests in Iran are meant to demonstrate Ka-226T's capability to operated at extreme temperatures (Russian Helicopters)
The Russian Helicopters holding along with the Iran Helicopters Support and Renewal Company (IHSRC) will carry out usability tests on its light utility Ka-226T helicopter, particularly in high temperature conditions. The testing will be done at the IHSRC’s facility.

This follows from a memorandum signed between the two parties at HeliRussia-2017, in May. The rotorcraft, which has already arrived at the Iranian facility, will continue high temperature tests through the end of August.

The tests are meant to demonstrate the Ka-226T’s capability of being operated at extreme temperatures of up to +50 degrees. “The testing of the Ka-226T in the extreme climatic conditions of Iran will make the helicopter even more attractive for potential operators not only in Iran, but also throughout the Middle East,” said Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Boginsky. “We already notice great interest towards the helicopter in the region even now.”

Russian Helicopters is planning on meeting with IHSRC in September, after the conclusion of testing, for a conference in Iran for the promotion of the helicopter to potential customers.

The Ka-226T has already successfully been promoted to India, with a road map of serial production in that country already drawn up by both sides. 200 helicopters are on order to the Indian Armed Forces and deliveries to begin in 2019. The type is also already in use by the Russian military and has found use in the medevac market in that country.



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seen in Iran flying alongside a Bell-214.

240535_319.jpg

240534_391.jpg


http://defapress.ir/fa/news/252218/کاموف-226-در-آسمان-تهران-به-پرواز-درآمد
 
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Russian Helicopters to test Ka-226T in Iran

Posted on August 10th, 2017 by Russian Aviation Insider in Aerospace, Russia

IMG_1-660x430-620x404.jpg


The tests in Iran are meant to demonstrate Ka-226T's capability to operated at extreme temperatures (Russian Helicopters)
The Russian Helicopters holding along with the Iran Helicopters Support and Renewal Company (IHSRC) will carry out usability tests on its light utility Ka-226T helicopter, particularly in high temperature conditions. The testing will be done at the IHSRC’s facility.

This follows from a memorandum signed between the two parties at HeliRussia-2017, in May. The rotorcraft, which has already arrived at the Iranian facility, will continue high temperature tests through the end of August.

The tests are meant to demonstrate the Ka-226T’s capability of being operated at extreme temperatures of up to +50 degrees. “The testing of the Ka-226T in the extreme climatic conditions of Iran will make the helicopter even more attractive for potential operators not only in Iran, but also throughout the Middle East,” said Russian Helicopters CEO Andrey Boginsky. “We already notice great interest towards the helicopter in the region even now.”

Russian Helicopters is planning on meeting with IHSRC in September, after the conclusion of testing, for a conference in Iran for the promotion of the helicopter to potential customers.

The Ka-226T has already successfully been promoted to India, with a road map of serial production in that country already drawn up by both sides. 200 helicopters are on order to the Indian Armed Forces and deliveries to begin in 2019. The type is also already in use by the Russian military and has found use in the medevac market in that country.



--------
seen in Iran flying alongside a Bell-214.

240535_319.jpg

240534_391.jpg


http://defapress.ir/fa/news/252218/کاموف-226-در-آسمان-تهران-به-پرواز-درآمد


Adding coaxial rotor technology to Iran's Helicopters Fleet is important because they are capable of flying at higher altitudes but this helicopter uses extremely weak engines!

When Russian official visited IHCRS they were surprised with what they saw! The saw a company that had all the tools, personal, facilities and equipment to mass produce helicopters wasting most of it's resources on taking Helo's apart & overhauling them while they could have been producing that same Helo at a much faster pace at the same cost if they had changed their focus on production instead!

Hopefully this project will change the way they do business towards mass production because Iran's SABA-248 approximately has the same specs
 
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@VEVAK

Some additional points:

- Most potent weapons in the world are ballistic missiles and submarines. The reason the Navy is now supportent is because Iran is ready to start a submarine program.

- The IRIAF gets no support and resources because they could convince nobody that they could actually build a fighter on their own. It's not due to titanium (one can do can everything titanium can with high strength super steel alloy for structural airframe elements), but because they can't build the most vital part of a aircraft, the engine. Nobody would believe them claiming that they could build a 2017 state of the art engine in 20 years from now. OTOH IRGC missile division and Navy build every bit of the vital parts on their own.

- Iran is just lucky that the US is a believer in airpower and hence would use JASSM-ER and CMs in future (against which economic interception is possible to some extent). The situation for Iran would be much worse if they would field an Iskander-M like TBM or better...

- Some countries built mountain tunnel air bases. Iran has not and it would be too expensive. There is not HAS in the world with protection levels even near to mountain tunnels. Chinese and North Koreans did it at times when their missile arsenal was not potent enough. A SAM truck can be just stored in a minimal wide mountain tunnel...


Now just one more: conventional airpower requires static bases, there is no room for static elements in high intensity saturation warfare. Irans missile bases are not bases with runways, outdoor maintain hangars, munition bunkers and fuel depots. They are just tunnels in massive rock in which the valuable missile arsenal is stored until a preemptive strike (nuclear or not) is fend off and its mobile low footprint missiles assets can be employed. This is very different from an airbase, and you can store everything in them, from mobile SAMs with radars to mobile BM and CM launchers etc.
There is just one thing that is static in Irans doctrine and this is the OTH radar. It is only expected to remain operational for the first hours of the conflict and provide the necessary early warning for that phase. So I would give my blessings if the at one time decide to build a mountain tunnel airbase close to that OTH radar, with several steel super concrete runways. If then a large portion of available defense systems would be located at that central point, it could remain operational for a few hours together with the OTH radar, after a few volleys of 1000+ simultaneous JASSM-ER and Tomahawk strikes are launched against them.
For a OTH radar, such central defense tactic might be worth it, but the mountain airbase would be much more expansive than a similar missile solution.


Your mistaken! As I said before the U.S. doesn't put all it's eggs in one basket and neither should we!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

U.S. used them in Iraq & Afghanistan the U.S. hides them in some of their MLRS systems. There Battlefield Tactical Ballistic Missiles currently have a max range of 300km but by 2022 upgraded 500km versions will be fielded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-140_ATACMS#cite_note-19

In March 2016, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Raytheon announced they would offer a missile to meet the U.S. Army's Long Range Precision Fires (LRPF) requirement to replace the ATACMS. The missile will use advanced propulsion to fly faster and further, out to 500 kilometres (310 mi) (limited by the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty),[18] while also being thinner and sleeker, increasing loadout to two per pod, doubling the number able to be carried by M270 MLRS and M142 HIMARS launchers. One contractor is to be downselected in 2018-19 to begin production in 2021-22

So for high priority Targets within 500km of their bases in the region (Air Defense systems & Missile bases) they'll likely use them before the cruise missiles reach or pass through the area!

As for the Air force the blame is STRICKTLY on the IRIAF
and yes they have had the tools and facilities to build Aluminum/Steel based flying prototypes for decades!

On a prototype they don't have to invent a new ejection seat all they have to do is copy the ones they have on the F-14's & F-4's & build around them They didn't have to invent a new landing gear all they had to do is copy and use F-14 landing gears on their prototypes and it's the same with many of the components....

In my opinion IRIAF lack of innovation has gone largely unnoticed!

IRIAF knew Titanium is a major requirement for any advanced fighter decades ago & that's when they should have done R&D on titanium production handed the research to the government and pushed for Titanium production 20 years ago!

20 years ago they should have evaluated and one by one removed the obstacles preventing them from building various fighter prototypes

And building various Steel/Aluminum based flying prototypes using J-79 engines or RD-33 engines is what they should have done 10-15 years ago!

And building Titanium/Aluminum based Airframes & New Jet Engine designs more advanced than the J-79 & even the TF-30 is what they should have done in the past decade!

The problem with IRIAF commanders is that they didn't comprehend that sanctions were and are a type of war against Iran and as a part of Iran's military they where obligated to fight it with every tool at their disposal but they failed!

And this has NOTHING to do with funding! TF-30 Jet engine was built in the 60's! 60! when there was no computer aided designs, precision cutting equipment,...... and NO internet to get practically free access to various more advanced designs so If the IRIAF failed to build a prototype of an engine more advanced than the TF-30 with an Airframe more capable than the F-14 by today then they have absolutely NO ONE to blame but themselves!

To this day the IRIAF has failed to even come up with a prototype Airframe & Engine worth producing! And Iran is not a capitalist country for a privet companies to require funding for personal and resources to invest time and materials on a maybe!
In Iran one of the Air Forces duties should have been to come up with a prototype of an Airframe and engine worth producing!

And it's not important if the government chooses not to produce them! What's important is to have an R&D program with innovation being one of your main duties
 
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@VEVAK

It's a huge endeavor to serial produce a 3-4th gen fighter today. China was struggling to just recently to serial produce a turbofan with a core from the early 70's. How high are Irans industrial capability compared to the Chinese? If I had any power I would veto giving the IRIAF the prospect for a 3-4-5th gen fighter serial production. Too costly too fragile.

I would agree to a serial production of a RQ-170 UAV/UACV if missile deterrence level reaches a certain threshold. Based on that I might would agree to a highly unconventional cheap light fighter which would use the same small but advanced turbofan as the S-171. This still fragile conventional airpower asset described, the Qaher-313 would at least keep the IRIAF alive until a future systems gives airforces it's relevance back.

All this would only get a blessing because it's rather simple, engines would be shared and only if the RQ-170 has provided Iran with a leap in this technology. Catching up with F-14 as baseline is a absolutely no option.

We have one huge advantage over the Americans which we have to do the best usage of: the IRIAF is not influential enough. The USAF and USN pilot community is a huge driving force against full concentration on UAVs. They have a political problem to move away from fighter based airpower to UAV based airpower. Iran is very dynamic compared to them, a lobbying of IRIAF pilots against full UAV employment wouldn't lead far.
The other huge advantage is that the US is the role model for the world on MTCR. On that Iran has already made best use with it's missile forces.
Iran would be foolish not to make maximum use of those two advantages. On one, it has and the other one looks to go in the right direction.

Fortunately Irans missile power has reached necessary high levels to enable doing works like S-171 serial production, down to Qaher-313 development. That's a good indicator for the missile power level, the serious asset.
 
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@VEVAK

It's a huge endeavor to serial produce a 3-4th gen fighter today. China was struggling to just recently to serial produce a turbofan with a core from the early 70's. How high are Irans industrial capability compared to the Chinese? If I had any power I would veto giving the IRIAF the prospect for a 3-4-5th gen fighter serial production. Too costly too fragile.

I would agree to a serial production of a RQ-170 UAV/UACV if missile deterrence level reaches a certain threshold. Based on that I might would agree to a highly unconventional cheap light fighter which would use the same small but advanced turbofan as the S-171. This still fragile conventional airpower asset described, the Qaher-313 would at least keep the IRIAF alive until a future systems gives airforces it's relevance back.

All this would only get a blessing because it's rather simple, engines would be shared and only if the RQ-170 has provided Iran with a leap in this technology. Catching up with F-14 as baseline is a absolutely no option.

We have one huge advantage over the Americans which we have to do the best usage of: the IRIAF is not influential enough. The USAF and USN pilot community is a huge driving force against full concentration on UAVs. They have a political problem to move away from fighter based airpower to UAV based airpower. Iran is very dynamic compared to them, a lobbying of IRIAF pilots against full UAV employment wouldn't lead far.
The other huge advantage is that the US is the role model for the world on MTCR. On that Iran has already made best use with it's missile forces.
Iran would be foolish not to make maximum use of those two advantages. On one, it has and the other one looks to go in the right direction.

Fortunately Irans missile power has reached necessary high levels to enable doing works like S-171 serial production, down to Qaher-313 development. That's a good indicator for the missile power level, the serious asset.

Again your talking about production! The Chinese can carryout detailed cost vs benefit annalists on Domestic Engine production vs purchasing vs license production! Iran doesn't have that luxury! And yet the Chinese DON'T stop R&D on domestic designs!

Clearly China is not going to be satisfied with a high maintenance engine like the TF-30 or something similar of their own design for their fighter jet when they have access to better and more reliable engines!
Again, Iran doesn't have that luxury! You think the TF-30 doesn't have problems?

Also, Chinese engines problems are on durability & high G performance of their own design vs engines they can easily buy, co-produce or do license production of! YET STILL the Chinese choose to continue R&D on their own design WHY? And answer is clear! Because it's not about what engine you choose to put on your fighters today & whether or not you choose a domestic engine on a future fighter in the immediate future! It's about being innovative and creating an innovative workforce who will contribute to various industries in the country & also the hope that they will one day power all their fighter with their own engines & one day surpass U.S. & Russian designs!

When it comes to fighter production the cost of building a production model is what's expensive because you have to build all the tool, equipment, facilities & training the right amount of personal for not just the engine & airframe but every component of the fighter from avionics, sensors, radars, radar,.... which makes it an expensive endeavor and you also have to build a weapon system & weapons around your new platform which is also expensive,....

BUT that's not what we are talking about! Building a prototype of a new Air Frame around already existing parts (F-14 Landing Gear, hydraulic pumps, Air refueling probe, ejection seat,...) is a whole other story and a new Turbofan Engine prototypes (not production models) again is a whole other story

Basically you get a bunch of already existing components & you have your Air Frame R&D team design & build an Airframe around them! In the past decade IRIAF should have come up with a flying prototype every 2 years using their own personal and a test teams fly's & tests the prototype & sends the info back to the guys building the next prototype to correct flaws add features....

IRIAF also should have had R&D teams working on propulsion, R&D teams in electronics, R&D teams on metallurgy, R&D teams on Air-Air weapons, Pilot gear, PGM..... (Filling the team with 50% full time personal & 50% conscripts educated in that field on equipment that don't require high security clearance & 100% full time personal on components that do)

Now for a privet company in Iran this would be an expensive endeavor with no assurances for the defense industry your again spending recourses for decades again on a maybe but IRIAF has both the personal & facilities and whether the prototype gets produced or not shouldn't have been the point! Fact is IRIAF hasn't provided the Defense Industry with a platform or engine worth producing!


Q-313 & Saegheh are nice for concept design but THEY ARE NOT WORTH producing! In fact anyone that argues for a light cheap fighters to produce clearly took no experience from the Iran-Iraq war!
Fighters with No Air refueling capability, low combat radius, low payload capacity, with limited sensor & low situational awareness is not only worthless in terms of capability but it is also nothing more than a flying target!

People that talk about the Q-313 talk about it as if Iran can somehow produce 1000 a year! Which is absurd! and even if we could have somehow produced 100 a year at the end of the day you would have been better off with producing 12-18 force multipliers a year like the F-15, F-14, Su-30 as oppose to 100 Q-313's a year both in capability, cost of production and the cost of operating and maintaining them would have been cheaper in the long run as well!

We mine our country produced strategic metals & turn around and sell it to countries that wont even sell the product they produce with that alloy back us it's absurd & the funny thing is that they take pride in the fact that they are exporting it
 
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@VEVAK

What you describe was done in the Army with the Zolfaghar tank project. It kept the Army R&D busy and lost at the start of the production stage to system based on "Iranized" Russian R&D.

This is nothing bad if you have sufficient resources and the Army had it. But the resources necessary for a IRIAF R&D program would be simply too large for Iran and it's situation.

The tank is a weapon that is more cost effective than a fighter, which is another reason the Army was allowed the resources for the Zolfaghar R&D program. Now in 2017 Iran has sufficient resources for a tank production run, won by the Karrar.

In the same way another foreign R&D input, the RQ-170 might get a production line with the S-171 while the Saeghe not.

This just teaches us that IRIAF was not cleared to receive the huge resources for a fighter R&D program, the Saeghe was the maximum and the Q-313 is only there because its a cooperation program lead by the MOD.

Only if the Q-313 is simple/low maintenance enough to be operated for 200 hours in field conditions, start from dirtfields (via a hardened landing gear and top intakes), it has any reasonable chance to be of any operational use in a high intensity conflict. It should not cost more than 5 mil $ an airframe to have any degree of cost effectiveness. But I think I don't need to repeat myself, you already know my opinion about survivability and worth of fighter/bombers in high intensity warfare.
 
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@VEVAK

What you describe was done in the Army with the Zolfaghar tank project. It kept the Army R&D busy and lost at the start of the production stage to system based on "Iranized" Russian R&D.

This is nothing bad if you have sufficient resources and the Army had it. But the resources necessary for a IRIAF R&D program would be simply too large for Iran and it's situation.

The tank is a weapon that is more cost effective than a fighter, which is another reason the Army was allowed the resources for the Zolfaghar R&D program. Now in 2017 Iran has sufficient resources for a tank production run, won by the Karrar.

In the same way another foreign R&D input, the RQ-170 might get a production line with the S-171 while the Saeghe not.

This just teaches us that IRIAF was not cleared to receive the huge resources for a fighter R&D program, the Saeghe was the maximum and the Q-313 is only there because its a cooperation program lead by the MOD.

Only if the Q-313 is simple/low maintenance enough to be operated for 200 hours in field conditions, start from dirtfields (via a hardened landing gear and top intakes), it has any reasonable chance to be of any operational use in a high intensity conflict. It should not cost more than 5 mil $ an airframe to have any degree of cost effectiveness. But I think I don't need to repeat myself, you already know my opinion about survivability and worth of fighter/bombers in high intensity warfare.

NO it is NOT too much for the IRIAF! And it's absolutely absurd to think that it is! It's about how you choose to allocate your resources! The Facilities are there the Personal is there building handful of large vacuumed ovens is something IRIAF should have done 15 years ago it's not ROCKET science!

Iran's Navy Commanders choose to allocate the resources available to them by starting R&D programs in various fields! And it doesn't matter that they don't have the funding to produce everything they want what's important is continuing R&D

As for the Zolfaghar when you have the option of license production of a more durable Tanks at a lower cost yes just as China chooses Russian Engines for it's Aircraft your going to do a cost vs benefits analysis and your going to choose which one your going to procure BUT your NOT going to stop R&D


Lets say a Q-313 at the end of the day comes out to only $10 Million USD (Airframe, Engine, Sensors... but not including spare parts, maintenance costs, pilot gear, weapons,...) will 8 of them be able to take on a single $80 Million USD Su-35?
NO!
Will it be cheaper to fuel 8 $10 Million USD fighter or 1 Su-35?
Will it be cheaper to build bunkers for 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
Will it be easier to train pilots on 8 Q-313's or 1 Su-35?
Will it be cheaper and faster to maintain 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
And most important will Iran be able to produce at such a high rate?
And I can keep going on an on

And as a result the Q-313 is a nice concept fighter BUT NOT a Fighter worth producing!

Azarakhsh & Saegheh should have only been a stepping stone after the Saegheh instead of putting resources into production they should have continued on to a bigger fighter BUT TO DO SO you require 20 tones of titanium a year for both an Air Frame & Engine!
That and a few other strategic metals is the ONLY extra resources the MOD should have provided the IRIAF R&D program until they had something worth producing!
 
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FYI the day's where the government was scared of the Artesh gaining too much power is long passed my friend! Those are nothing but western delusions!

I would not mix the IRIAF with IRGC Aerospace forces if you want to shake up the IRIAF then sack the head of the IRIAF specifically for a lack of innovation

Fact is IRIAF has no one to blame but it's self!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.Iran's Navy is building it's own Ships and Subs many of which were developed by it's own personal & proper management and coordination with Iran's Defense Industry & they are far ahead of the IRGC Navy!

2.IRGC Aerospace forces are building Advanced Ballistic Missiles & UAV's far more capable than most Air Force UAV's & it's not because of funding!

3.Iran's Artesh Ground Forces are building various types of equipment some impressive & some not so much

4. Iran's Air Defense Forces are building various radars & SAM's that are very impressive

And yes they all did it by cooperating with various defense industry companies!

BUT What have IRIAF commanders done when faced with sanctions in terms of innovation not upkeep?????

IRIAF has highly educated personal, they have tools & facilities required to build many of the parts plus the tools they didn't have they could and should have built so they can develop their own Jet engines & prototypes and if they had built a prototype worth producing then they could of handed it over to the defense industry for production!

If your country is being sanctioned & prohibited from buying Aircraft then they are at war with you! And it may be a different type of war but still you need to adjust yourself and your command decisions accordingly!

By 2005 Iran's Air Force should have built all the tools and facilities required to at the very least build a full scale working prototype of a new Air Frame and an new engine every two years
For the prototypes you use parts already available F-14 Landing Gears, F-4 Cockpit, F-4 J-79 Engines & all Airframes equipped with internal weapons bays with low RCS & IRST built in!
By now they should have had 5 designs of Airframes & Engines combined the best of the best & started production

I wouldn't call IRIAF the culprit here, if you cut down budget of the organization it will not produce results. How can you expect them to yield out things when they can not import anything and the funds are just not there ?

Making fighter jets is far more difficult then making Ballistic missiles. Engines, Radars, Avionics suite etc they are all to be imported or built under license, even countries like India and china cant produce their own fighter jets without heavy procurement spree from outside world. If IRIAF today cant give out even a 4.0 generation fighter jet, its because Iranian diplomatic front has failed miserably or may be govt. itself did not want IRIAF to be re-equipped. They failed to see the future, otherwise they could have tried to bargain TOT or high number imports from Russia on Engines, Radars, Avionics in late 90s when Russia itself was desperate for cash and khatami was seen as a moderate by west. Even something on lines of imports or TOT of RD-33 along with Zhuk 8-10 would have made sense for basing our local fighter project on those proven systems. We saw no effort literally. They could have even invested in FC-1 program of China which was perfect to replace F-5 E/F and F-4E/D Fleet. They did nothing.

When your decision makers are not doing anything for you then you how can a military organization is expected to survive ? All of this when they already saw Azarakhsh program failing in 90s. They cant even upgrade these ancient planes in Iran let alone build something new.
 
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I wouldn't call IRIAF the culprit here, if you cut down budget of the organization it will not produce results. How can you expect them to yield out things when they can not import anything and the funds are just not there ?

Making fighter jets is far more difficult then making Ballistic missiles. Engines, Radars, Avionics suite etc they are all to be imported or built under license, even countries like India and china cant produce their own fighter jets without heavy procurement spree from outside world. If IRIAF today cant give out even a 4.0 generation fighter jet, its because Iranian diplomatic front has failed miserably or may be govt. itself did not want IRIAF to be re-equipped. They failed to see the future, otherwise they could have tried to bargain TOT or high number imports from Russia on Engines, Radars, Avionics in late 90s when Russia itself was desperate for cash and khatami was seen as a moderate by west. Even something on lines of imports or TOT of RD-33 along with Zhuk 8-10 would have made sense for basing our local fighter project on those proven systems. We saw no effort literally. They could have even invested in FC-1 program of China which was perfect to replace F-5 E/F and F-4E/D Fleet. They did nothing.

When your decision makers are not doing anything for you then you how can a military organization is expected to survive ? All of this when they already saw Azarakhsh program failing in 90s. They cant even upgrade these ancient planes in Iran let alone build something new.

1st IRIAF having an R&D program has nothing to do with fighter production! Now how large your R&D program is can be debated but IRIAF having an R&D programs in various fields is a necessity not a luxury

2ndly Your talking about production of avionics, radars,.... and the parts required in a 4th gen fighter while I'm strictly talking about R&D. For the IRIAF to allocate ~2% of if human resources towards R&D should be the minimum requirement so if you have 25,000 personal at least 500 should be for R&D broken down into 10 teams of 50 personal
1.Team on Air Frame
2.Propulsion
3.Electronics Sensors, INS & cockpit electronics & displays
4.Metelergy, Composites....
5.Weapons & Weapons systems.
6.Radar & IRST
7.Flight control & Avionics (Fly by wire, Throttle, Hydraulics, electric pumps.....)
8.Pilot Gear & Survival
9.Communication Data link,....
10. Tools,.... cutting, welding, titanium casting, 3D printing, mass production concepts, vacuums,....
I would also have separate teams working on Lasers, Optics, Countermeasures, RCS & a few other things

IRIAF is not going to break if 500-700 of it's current personal strictly do R&D & IRIAF has more facilities than they know what to do with that just leaves materials & a limited number of tools & that's not too much to ask for an Air Force that hasn't purchased a fighter in 30 years

Now Titanium is one of the top 10 most abundant minerals in the world but to turn it into an alloy is expensive and you require a more rare mineral called magnesium which by the way the top producers of this alloy today are China, U.S., Russia, Israel,... & 2 years ago Iran started magnesium production & it seems we have such an abundance that they starting exporting it
And very soon titanium production facilities will also go operational

So overall it's absurd to think that Iran can't afford to give IRIAF enough raw martials to develop a new fighter prototype every 2 years
 
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@VEVAK

More points:

- IRIAF needs a high budget to do R&D in critical subsystems, and if it is not given to them they can just do what they have done til today: R&D on less critical systems, radios, altimeter, pumps, PGMs, AAMs, landing gears etc.
Making a copy of the J79 as prototype is such a hard task that they just can't do it with the budget they have (nor would it make sense, the only engine in Iran that would be worth it is the RD-33 and the small RQ-170 engine).

- Chinese did not buy the Al-31 because it was cheaper but because their own WS-10 had a much lower TBO.
You said:
"Lets say a Q-313 at the end of the day comes out to only $10 Million USD (Airframe, Engine, Sensors... but not including spare parts, maintenance costs, pilot gear, weapons,...) will 8 of them be able to take on a single $80 Million USD Su-35?
NO!
Will it be cheaper to fuel 8 $10 Million USD fighter or 1 Su-35?
Well right, the Su-35 would be cheaper to fuel. But if the Q-313 could be operated from small airfields, highways and so on where the Su-35 could not with a similar support footprint, then that benefit get smaller.

Will it be cheaper to build bunkers for 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
There is no aircraft bunker that could survive multiple hits by penetration payloads of CM's. The Q-313 could be simple and rugged (+ short take off capabilities) enough to operate from the many airfields and highways with a very small ground support footprint. So if you don't have mountain tunnel airbases, dispersing Q-313 with no physical protection but just camouflage would be the most survivable concept for them.

Will it be easier to train pilots on 8 Q-313's or 1 Su-35?
The Q-313 could have a very high degree of automation. Actually in my idea of a very low ground effect land operation of it would require it to fly most of the flight via autopilot, avoid dogfights and mainly use two long range AAM's. It would act like a flying SAM and the bombing operations would also be highly automatized. Even automatic take off and landing could be implemented. My concept for the Q-313 might be wrong but if not, training pilots for it would be very low cost.

Will it be cheaper and faster to maintain 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
Possibly the 8 Q-313. You might know that a F-5 needed something like 4-5 times less man hours for maintenance and I think for the F-14 it was something like 8 times. Now the Q-313 does not use a after burner and operates closer to a nominal regime because it does no dogfights in my concept of it.
The Su-35 is not comparable to the over-complex F-14 but the Q-313 could also be much easier to maintain than the F-5. The rugged, simple concept I foresee for the Q-313 would require very low maintenance requirements so that it would have to be designed for that goal.


And most important will Iran be able to produce at such a high rate?
If it is designed to be simple and low cost with a restricted operation regime, they could produce it in quantities. This is not a JF-17 which is small and cheap, but want to compete and operate like a F-16. No. The Q-313 team would not be foolish enough to compete with eastern and westerns, well established conventional airpower concept. Something asymmetrical is the only possible answer. I'm happy that the Q-313 makes sense for such a novel operation doctrine. If Iran would build something like the JF-17, I would agree production numbers would never reach necessary levels.

And I can keep going on an on
You are welcome. I'm not a friend of conventional manned airpower for a country with the boundary conditions like Iran, but the Q-313 looks promising.


Azarakhsh & Saegheh should have only been a stepping stone after the Saegheh instead of putting resources into production they should have continued on to a bigger fighter

I think at the time of the Azarashkh the IRIAF still had a powerful lobbying power. However as a conventional concept would lead Iran nowhere, those supporters of it were retired and further fighter R&D was stopped. A very positive thing if you ask me.
Now the Q-313 is a mod initiative that might lead the IRIAF to be re-equipped with a fighter, a possibly very unconventional one.
We know that the old IRIAF cadre wanted next after the Ararashkh and the Saeqhe, a JF-17 like light fighter. If they would have been successful with it and if it would have entered production due to the IRIAF veterans influence, it would have negative impact on Irans warfighting capability.
We all respect the IRIAF and it's veterans, but doctrinal development is the job of scientists and engineers. Well possible that Iran would have been attacked long ago, if those science based decision making for a missile force instead of re-equipping the IRIAF after the war was not made.

Something else VEVAK:

Titanium is a good thing to have. However you can do EVERYTHING titanium does with super steel alloys.
Titanium has high tensile strength for its weight and super steel alloys have higher MPa ratings but at higher weight.
What you say was true for the 70's/80's and if available its still state of the art today. However it is absolutely no show stopper for IRIAF R&D.

I give you and example: Due to its properties, Soviets decided to build titanium hull submarines in the 70's and 80's at immense costs. Alfa class submarines and other "titaniums" are today seen as one of the reasons Soviet defense expenses exploded and ultimately lead to its bankruptcy.
Today Russians have moved back to use super steel alloys for the best submarines, because it meanwhile has similar mechanical properties as titanium for it higher weight. The same is true for airframe structural elements. If Iran has not mastered such super steel alloys (very likely), those airframe structural parts would weight 50-25% more than a comparable titanium structural part. This is certainly something but certainly not a show stopper for R&D.
Today going for steel superalloys with +1500MPa ratings is a way to skip titanium and make easier use of 3D production methods. Mastering it is equally difficult as mastering titanium.
 
. . . .
@VEVAK

More points:

- IRIAF needs a high budget to do R&D in critical subsystems, and if it is not given to them they can just do what they have done til today: R&D on less critical systems, radios, altimeter, pumps, PGMs, AAMs, landing gears etc.
Making a copy of the J79 as prototype is such a hard task that they just can't do it with the budget they have (nor would it make sense, the only engine in Iran that would be worth it is the RD-33 and the small RQ-170 engine).

- Chinese did not buy the Al-31 because it was cheaper but because their own WS-10 had a much lower TBO.
You said:
"Lets say a Q-313 at the end of the day comes out to only $10 Million USD (Airframe, Engine, Sensors... but not including spare parts, maintenance costs, pilot gear, weapons,...) will 8 of them be able to take on a single $80 Million USD Su-35?
NO!
Will it be cheaper to fuel 8 $10 Million USD fighter or 1 Su-35?
Well right, the Su-35 would be cheaper to fuel. But if the Q-313 could be operated from small airfields, highways and so on where the Su-35 could not with a similar support footprint, then that benefit get smaller.

Will it be cheaper to build bunkers for 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
There is no aircraft bunker that could survive multiple hits by penetration payloads of CM's. The Q-313 could be simple and rugged (+ short take off capabilities) enough to operate from the many airfields and highways with a very small ground support footprint. So if you don't have mountain tunnel airbases, dispersing Q-313 with no physical protection but just camouflage would be the most survivable concept for them.

Will it be easier to train pilots on 8 Q-313's or 1 Su-35?
The Q-313 could have a very high degree of automation. Actually in my idea of a very low ground effect land operation of it would require it to fly most of the flight via autopilot, avoid dogfights and mainly use two long range AAM's. It would act like a flying SAM and the bombing operations would also be highly automatized. Even automatic take off and landing could be implemented. My concept for the Q-313 might be wrong but if not, training pilots for it would be very low cost.

Will it be cheaper and faster to maintain 8 Q-313 or 1 Su-35?
Possibly the 8 Q-313. You might know that a F-5 needed something like 4-5 times less man hours for maintenance and I think for the F-14 it was something like 8 times. Now the Q-313 does not use a after burner and operates closer to a nominal regime because it does no dogfights in my concept of it.
The Su-35 is not comparable to the over-complex F-14 but the Q-313 could also be much easier to maintain than the F-5. The rugged, simple concept I foresee for the Q-313 would require very low maintenance requirements so that it would have to be designed for that goal.


And most important will Iran be able to produce at such a high rate?
If it is designed to be simple and low cost with a restricted operation regime, they could produce it in quantities. This is not a JF-17 which is small and cheap, but want to compete and operate like a F-16. No. The Q-313 team would not be foolish enough to compete with eastern and westerns, well established conventional airpower concept. Something asymmetrical is the only possible answer. I'm happy that the Q-313 makes sense for such a novel operation doctrine. If Iran would build something like the JF-17, I would agree production numbers would never reach necessary levels.

And I can keep going on an on
You are welcome. I'm not a friend of conventional manned airpower for a country with the boundary conditions like Iran, but the Q-313 looks promising.




I think at the time of the Azarashkh the IRIAF still had a powerful lobbying power. However as a conventional concept would lead Iran nowhere, those supporters of it were retired and further fighter R&D was stopped. A very positive thing if you ask me.
Now the Q-313 is a mod initiative that might lead the IRIAF to be re-equipped with a fighter, a possibly very unconventional one.
We know that the old IRIAF cadre wanted next after the Ararashkh and the Saeqhe, a JF-17 like light fighter. If they would have been successful with it and if it would have entered production due to the IRIAF veterans influence, it would have negative impact on Irans warfighting capability.
We all respect the IRIAF and it's veterans, but doctrinal development is the job of scientists and engineers. Well possible that Iran would have been attacked long ago, if those science based decision making for a missile force instead of re-equipping the IRIAF after the war was not made.

Something else VEVAK:

Titanium is a good thing to have. However you can do EVERYTHING titanium does with super steel alloys.
Titanium has high tensile strength for its weight and super steel alloys have higher MPa ratings but at higher weight.
What you say was true for the 70's/80's and if available its still state of the art today. However it is absolutely no show stopper for IRIAF R&D.

I give you and example: Due to its properties, Soviets decided to build titanium hull submarines in the 70's and 80's at immense costs. Alfa class submarines and other "titaniums" are today seen as one of the reasons Soviet defense expenses exploded and ultimately lead to its bankruptcy.
Today Russians have moved back to use super steel alloys for the best submarines, because it meanwhile has similar mechanical properties as titanium for it higher weight. The same is true for airframe structural elements. If Iran has not mastered such super steel alloys (very likely), those airframe structural parts would weight 50-25% more than a comparable titanium structural part. This is certainly something but certainly not a show stopper for R&D.
Today going for steel superalloys with +1500MPa ratings is a way to skip titanium and make easier use of 3D production methods. Mastering it is equally difficult as mastering titanium.
 
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