Indonesia says it has seized Iranian and Panamanian tankers

[Philosopher]

Well to be fair, Indonesia has seized Iran's ship and Iran has not responded so I do not think anything major has occurred. This will be resolved swiftly. Iran-Indonesia have decent relationship.

 

[nufix]

And minus just posting some pictures and pointing some superficial similarities, how have you satisfied that definition? Exactly, nothing. You're basically just trolling.



Given you obviously did not bother to listen to it, here it is again.Listen to this Israeli expert explain that to you:

Only one of Iran's UAV families is based on the RQ-170. Moreover, you're talking as if reverse engineering is easy in general, especially something hi tech like the RQ-170. That level of technology is something your kind can dream about.

This is what the American's i.e Iran's adversary say about Iran's UAV capability:

Iran is becoming a drone superpower

Iran is becoming a drone superpower

Not all of Iran’s claims regarding its drones are accurate, but Tehran’s bragging is no reason to scoff at its abilities.

thehill.com

Iran has so many UAVs that it would take me an hour just to post them, and we have see a taste of these UAVs in effect:

Abqaiq–Khurais attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those were in the past. Today, Iran's most advanced air defence, called Bavar-373 is a long range indigenous air defence. Read below article on this system:

Iranian Bavar-373 long range air defence system- A quantum leap in Iran's air defence capability​

Iranian Bavar-373 long range air defence system- A quantum leap in Iran's air defence capability

Author: Philosopher Category: Air defence In 2007, an Iran with a very limited air defence network signed a contract with the Russians for the S-300 air defence system to help protect its air space from a potential airstrike. That deal ended up being embroiled in the tense political...

defence.pk

Simple research answers these questions. Here is a recent example, a small turbofan for UAVs using single crystal technology.

View attachment 710241


View attachment 710242

View attachment 710243

See below thread for more information:

"Jahesh-700", Iran's first turbofan engine

defence.pk

That was a typo, I mean import i.e your reliance on importing military hardware. Moroever, you're comparing a severely sanctioned like Iran to Indonesia? How long do you think Indonesia would last economically if it had even a fraction of those sanctions imposed on it?

Lol, I asked for specifics regarding what Iran is pioneering in and you are just bombarding this thread with prop photos. Aside from propaganda articles and photo op these junks are nothing more. Fact is, you still import from either NK, Russia or China when it comes to real stuff.

Again what are you talking about? Indonesia’s import to gdp is at 22%, that is lower than Iran’s 30% to gdp lol. So yeah, we will be doing just fine producing and consuming domestically. Anyway, Iran export is heavily reliant on oil related products at more than 80% while Indonesian export is much more diversified from natural to finished products. Without oil, Iran would be just another North Korea lol.

 

[Philosopher]

Lol, I asked for specifics regarding what Iran is pioneering in and you are just bombarding this thread with prop photos.

I have given you speeches by experts, clearly you're not even bothering to put in the effort. In other words you're simply not interested in the facts.

Aside from propaganda articles and photo op these junks are nothing more.

So how how did these "junks" deliver these effects in the real world?:

Airdefence:

Missiles:

UAVs:

You seem to have an aversion with reality. Iran is one of the few nations who has proven its hardware in real attacks. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Fact is, you still import from either NK,

I am still waiting for you to give me a single example not related to something from 80s.

Russia or China when it comes to real stuff.

Last time Iran purchased anything from either of these nations was 2007 when Iran purchased S-300 and nothing since then. You're just inventing things at this point.

Again what are you talking about? Indonesia’s import to gdp is at 22%, that is lower than Iran’s 30% to gdp lol. So yeah, we will be doing just fine producing and consuming domestically. Anyway, Iran export is heavily reliant on oil related products at more than 80% while Indonesian export is much more diversified from natural to finished products.

Put even 10% of the sanctions on Iran on Indonesia and what do you think happens to your economy?

Without oil, Iran would be just another North Korea lol.

Oil means little if you cannot sell it, have you heard of sanctions? Yes they prevent Iran from selling most of its oil.

 

[Indos]

Again what are you talking about? Indonesia’s import to gdp is at 22%, that is lower than Iran’s 30% to gdp lol. So yeah, we will be doing just fine producing and consuming domestically. Anyway, Iran export is heavily reliant on oil related products at more than 80% while Indonesian export is much more diversified from natural to finished products. Without oil, Iran would be just another North Korea lol.

Just additional information, 80 % of Indonesian export is already a manufacturing goods.

"{According to the Central Statistics Agency (BPS), Indonesia’s total exports in January-September, 2020 were valued at $117.19 billion, with the manufacturing industry accounting for 80.5 percent of the exports."

https://en.antaranews.com/news/159705/indonesias-manufacturing-exports-top-us94-bln

 

[nahtanbob]

This incident will be resolved soon. People blowing it out of proportion.

I hope so

 

[nufix]

I have given you speeches by experts, clearly you're not even bothering to put in the effort. In other words you're simply not interested in the facts.



So how how did these "junks" deliver these effects in the real world?:

Airdefence:

View attachment 710250

Missiles:

View attachment 710251

UAVs:

View attachment 710252

You seem to have an aversion with reality. Iran is one of the few nations who has proven its hardware in real attacks. Wake up and smell the coffee.



I am still waiting for you to give me a single example not related to something from 80s.



Last time Iran purchased anything from either of these nations was 2007 when Iran purchased S-300 and nothing since then. You're just inventing things at this point.



Put even 10% of the sanctions on Iran on Indonesia and what do you think happens to your economy?



Oil means little if you cannot sell it, have you heard of sanctions? Yes they prevent Iran from selling most of its oil.

How can I give you any other samples if not from the 70s (not even 80s!) if the only real and war capable things in Iran’s inventory are from those era? Wake up and smell the coffee man!

Lol Iran being under embargo is the result of its own doing. If you know you cant consume all of your oil by yourself at a profit and need others to buy from you, dont make enemies out of everyone.

 

[Beast]

North Korea is a backward state technologically speaking, the only missiles Iran obtained from them was in the 80's. Today it is Iran providing them with technology. An example:

"Some experts also suspect that North Korea’s accelerated development of solid fuel rockets is connected to Iran’s missile program"​

A Paradigm Shift in North Korea’s Ballistic Missile Development? - 38 North: Informed Analysis of North Korea

In Kim Jong Un’s 2017 New Year’s speech, he announced that North Korea is in the final stage of preparations…

www.38north.org

Oh please, Iran is one of the pioneers today in missiles, air defence, UAVs etc. Listen to the experts:

You're out of your league here.

North korea backward state? I think u missed the news of this....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor...ber 28, 2017, North,in the Sea of Japan[/UL].

This is the most powerful ICBM after China DF-41.

 

[Indos]

Well to be fair, Indonesia has seized Iran's ship and Iran has not responded so I do not think anything major has occurred. This will be resolved swiftly. Iran-Indonesia have decent relationship.

The seize is only because illegal oil transferring between two vessels. There will be fine of course but the vessel will be given back if the fine is paid. Actually the fine can be quite big for Panama vessel since the receiver vessel had tried to dumb the oil into the sea when they were caught doing that illegal activity. The Panama vessel can also be charged doing criminal activity with that oil dumping attempt.

We dont know the owner of Panama vessels since any body can pay to get Panama flag on their vessel. In the past, we seized North Korean oil tanker as well, so it may come from North Korea.

This is my source, unfortunately Indonesian language

 

[Philosopher]

How can I give you any other samples if not from the 70s (not even 80s!) if the only real and war capable things in Iran’s inventory are from those era? Wake up and smell the coffee man!

You have already been given many war capable systems, here is one again:

Here is one of the systems used in this attack, and this is not even anywhere close to being the most advanced system in Iran's arsenal:

I had already given you the above example, but as expected you had nothing to say. Let me know where in the 70/80's existed ballistic missile with this level of accuracy. Minus some cherry picked examples, you have nothing else to say. Moreover, what do you mean by 70's/80's systems exactly? If you mean systems that lineage of which can date back to then, then by your logic the US's military is a 70's/80's one given most of their assets were designed and built around those times and even before then. Here is one article on the matter regarding their aging fleet:

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

The Army depends on Navy sealift to get 90% of its equipment and supplies to war zones.

www.forbes.com

At this point you cannot even put forward a single coherent argument and as one would expect given your previous posts, you simply refused to read/listen to testimonies by actual defence expert that were provided. Do you truly believe that you are doing yourself any favours by acting in denial regarding what those experts say? Listen to the Israel General, Yair Golan on his view on Iran's capabilities:

Given you lack the attention span to watch a full video, as you have demonstrated already, here is a snippet:

You had asked me to provide you with details of what is Iran doing that can be considered pioneering, and in response I gave a direct link to the defence expert Uzi Rubin explaining how Iran is pioneering the use of missiles and UAVs. Obviously you did not watch it. Your logic is basically to try and pretend facts do not exist. You see, pretending to asleep will not help you out here. Instead, learnt to discuss using the facts on the ground and not your faulty perception of them.

Lol Iran being under embargo is the result of its own doing. If you know you cant consume all of your oil by yourself at a profit and need others to buy from you, dont make enemies out of everyone.

You're trying to shift the discussion yet again, the point is not why Iran is under sanctions but to address your comments on Iran's economic status and the fact oil reserves mean little if you cannot sell it. As for not making enemies out of "everyone", who is everyone here? You consider US and their allies as "everyone"? This is a western servitude mentality. Moreover, you were trying to do a comparison between Iran and Indonesia economically, that is why I reminded you that if Indonesia or most other nations for that matter had the sort of sanctions Iran is under, then you would simply collapse. Having said that, my original comment of import (export was a typo) was not related to economy. I was talking military i.e your type rely almost entirely on importing hardware and could not develop a fraction of we're seeing in Iran.

North korea backward state? I think u missed the news of this....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor...ber 28, 2017, North,in the Sea of Japan[/UL].

View attachment 710296

This is the most powerful ICBM after China DF-41.

As if anyone sane would believe a country with a GDP of $25billion has the resources to be producing these systems it is claiming. Either these systems are propaganda or they are due to direct assistant from the outside, such as China, Iran etc. This is North Korean:

 

[Beast]

You have already been given many war capable systems, here is one again:

View attachment 710389

One of the systems used in this attack, and this is not even anywhere close to being the most advanced system in Iran's arsenal:


View attachment 710383

I have already given you this one example, but as expected you had nothing to say. Let me know where in the 70/80's existed ballistic missile with this level of accuracy. Minus some cherry picked examples, you have nothing else to say. Moreover, what do you mean by 70's/80's systems exactly? If you mean systems who lineage can date back to then, then by your logic the US's military is a 70's/80's one given most of their assets were designed and built around those times and even before then. Here is one article on the matter regarding their aging fleet:

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

The Army depends on Navy sealift to get 90% of its equipment and supplies to war zones.

www.forbes.com

At this point you do cannot even put forward a coherent argument and as one would expect from a troll, you simply refused to read/listen to testimonies by actual defence expert that were provided. Do you truly believe that you are doing yourself any favours by acting in denial regarding what those experts say? Listen to the Israel General, Yair Golan on his view on Iran's capabilities:

If you lack the attention span to watch the full video, as you have demonstrated already, here is a snippet:

You had asked me to provide you with details of what is Iran doing that can be considered pioneering, and I gave a direct link to someone explaining how Iran is pioneering the use of missiles and UAVs. Obviously you did not watch it. Your logic is basically to try and pretend facts do not exist. You see, pretending to asleep will not help you out here. You're just coming across as a troll who is increasingly getting desperate.



You're trying to shift the discussion yet again, the point is not why Iran is under sanctions but to address your comments on Iran's economic status and the fact oil reserves mean little if you cannot sell it. As for not making enemies out of "everyone", who is everyone here? You consider US and their allies as "everyone"? This is a western servitude mentality. Moreover, you were trying to do a comparison between Iran and Indonesia economically, that is why I reminded you that if Indonesia or most other nations for that matter had the sort of sanctions Iran is under, then you would simply collapse. Having said that, my original comment of import (export was a typo) was not related to economy. I was talking military i.e your type rely almost entirely on importing hardware and could no develop a fraction of we're seeing in Iran.



As if anyone sane would believe a country with a GDP of $25billion has the resources to be producing these systems it is claiming. Either these systems are propaganda or they are due to direct assistant from the outside, such as China, Iran etc. This is North Korean:

You truly under estimate the north korea. Beside the truck chassis. The whole ICBM is make and perfect by north korean. It may not be a solid state missile like Chinese DF-41 with heavier payload. But it do threaten USA most mainland.

North korea has gurantee it's existent together with American. Nobody dare to touch them. NK also manage to ignite a miniature a bomb warheads. It's yield shall be far less than a H-bomb buy enough to give american a nightmare.

Why would China assists North korea to have these threatening weapon which might even harm China in an unpredictable future?

 

[KurtisBrian]

North korea has gurantee it's existent together with American. Nobody dare to touch them. NK also manage to ignite a miniature a bomb warheads. It's yield shall be far less than a H-bomb buy enough to give american a nightmare.

Why would China assists North korea to have these threatening weapon which might even harm China in an unpredictable future?

There are many ways to destroy/"deal" with/sabotage a nation besides a direct conflict.

 

[Philosopher]

You truly under estimate the north korea. Beside the truck chassis. The whole ICBM is make and perfect by north korean. It may not be a solid state missile like Chinese DF-41 with heavier payload. But it do threaten USA most mainland.

North korea has gurantee it's existent together with American. Nobody dare to touch them. NK also manage to ignite a miniature a bomb warheads. It's yield shall be far less than a H-bomb buy enough to give american a nightmare.

Why would China assists North korea to have these threatening weapon which might even harm China in an unpredictable future?

Not at all, it's just a matter being rational. If we considered the claims coming out of that country and their ability to actually deliver then it is extremely questionable. As for their so called ICBM's, have you actually been following them? at most they test them once or twice, that is not how it works. For you to create a truly working system it require much more extensive testings. That does not mean their system is fake, it's just that its very hard to believe they are pulling it off without outside help. For example, their solid fuel technology suddenly started to take off, this is widely believed to be due to aid from Iran:

"Some experts also suspect that North Korea’s accelerated development of solid fuel rockets is connected to Iran’s missile program"

A Paradigm Shift in North Korea’s Ballistic Missile Development? - 38 North: Informed Analysis of North Korea

In Kim Jong Un’s 2017 New Year’s speech, he announced that North Korea is in the final stage of preparations…

www.38north.org

​

As for the issue of Chinese aid towards North Koreans missile program, there are ample articles on this topic you can read:

Chinese Involvement In North Korea's Nuclear Missile Program: From Trucks To Warheads

Chinese Involvement In North Korea's Nuclear Missile Program: From Trucks To Warheads

Indicators of China’s involvement in North Korea’s nuclear missile program include warhead design, other missile components, truck launchers, and the proximity of North Korea’s launch site to China’s border. China should be held accountable through economic sanctions and military pressure.

www.forbes.com

Note I have nothing against North Korea. Matter of fact I like them due to the fact they're on our side against the likes of US and also they have helped Iran in the 80s when Iran was in a war with Iraq. However, I have to be realistic in terms of the sort of claims I believe when it comes to them. North Korea is a country with a very limited underlying science and technology sector, combine that with their minuscule GDP then it is simply a reasonable belief that they are getting help. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope Iran and China continue to help them. It will not be in our interest for them to fall into the US camp.

 

[nufix]

You have already been given many war capable systems, here is one again:

View attachment 710389

Here is one of the systems used in this attack, and this is not even anywhere close to being the most advanced system in Iran's arsenal:


View attachment 710383

I had already given you the above example, but as expected you had nothing to say. Let me know where in the 70/80's existed ballistic missile with this level of accuracy. Minus some cherry picked examples, you have nothing else to say. Moreover, what do you mean by 70's/80's systems exactly? If you mean systems that lineage of which can date back to then, then by your logic the US's military is a 70's/80's one given most of their assets were designed and built around those times and even before then. Here is one article on the matter regarding their aging fleet:

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

How The U.S. Navy’s Aging Sealift Fleet Could Lose America’s Next War In Eurasia

The Army depends on Navy sealift to get 90% of its equipment and supplies to war zones.

www.forbes.com

At this point you cannot even put forward a single coherent argument and as one would expect given your previous posts, you simply refused to read/listen to testimonies by actual defence expert that were provided. Do you truly believe that you are doing yourself any favours by acting in denial regarding what those experts say? Listen to the Israel General, Yair Golan on his view on Iran's capabilities:

Given you lack the attention span to watch a full video, as you have demonstrated already, here is a snippet:

You had asked me to provide you with details of what is Iran doing that can be considered pioneering, and in response I gave a direct link to the defence expert Uzi Rubin explaining how Iran is pioneering the use of missiles and UAVs. Obviously you did not watch it. Your logic is basically to try and pretend facts do not exist. You see, pretending to asleep will not help you out here. Instead, learnt to discuss using the facts on the ground and not your faulty perception of them.



You're trying to shift the discussion yet again, the point is not why Iran is under sanctions but to address your comments on Iran's economic status and the fact oil reserves mean little if you cannot sell it. As for not making enemies out of "everyone", who is everyone here? You consider US and their allies as "everyone"? This is a western servitude mentality. Moreover, you were trying to do a comparison between Iran and Indonesia economically, that is why I reminded you that if Indonesia or most other nations for that matter had the sort of sanctions Iran is under, then you would simply collapse. Having said that, my original comment of import (export was a typo) was not related to economy. I was talking military i.e your type rely almost entirely on importing hardware and could not develop a fraction of we're seeing in Iran.



As if anyone sane would believe a country with a GDP of $25billion has the resources to be producing these systems it is claiming. Either these systems are propaganda or they are due to direct assistant from the outside, such as China, Iran etc. This is North Korean:

Ballistic missile with that accuracy already existedin the 70s and 80s lol. I asked you for specifics of what Iran invented or pioneered in the fields of missiles uavs and whatnot that others havent, you are just throwing photos of random stuff.

You said Indonesia would collapse under embargo, yet Indonesia is more self relliance than Iran. You have been living in your own bubble of Mullahs propaganda. Wake up dude, Iran industry besides oil and propaganda is non existent. And you want to talk of military industry? We can see it from your import-export matrix and GDP composition. That is enough telling for sane people that your „military industry“ is there for propaganda purposes since military industy actually counts as „industry“ within GDP composition and your industry is 80% to 90% oil related. Unfortunately, I pity you for living under such condition that you simply deny basic economic numbers in favor of propaganda photos.

Indonesia military industry cannot produce a fraction of what Iran made? I mean if what you made is mostly propaganda designed to fool Iranians into supporting dicatorial regime then yes, we cant. Otherwise Man, you cannot even move on from 60s 70s ship design while Indonesia is actively experimenting with stealth design and has been successful in exporting them as well. I suggest you visit the Indonesian thread here lol.

 

[Philosopher]

Ballistic missile with that accuracy already existedin the 70s and 80s lol.

Sure, show me a single example of such an accuracy e.g a clip of such a missile tests back in 70's/80's. You need to learn to substantiate your claims rather than just making them. Accurate ballistic missiles have only in the past 1-2 decades reached the level where conventionally they are reshaping how such assets are used and Iran has played a large part in this.

Below is a relatively large article written by Israeli military expert Uzi Rubin, Uzi describes brilliantly the outdatedness of this "missile do not win wars" idea. This is in large parts thanks to the demonstration by Iran in development and use of accurate ballistic missiles. Iran appears to be re-defining modern warfare given now we are seeing a push by the likes of Israelis to start pursuing such systems as offensive capability:

Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: The received wisdom that “missiles and rockets don’t win wars,” always a dubious assertion, is now obsolete and demonstrably false. Modern precision-guided missiles have the same combat effectiveness as fighting aircraft yet are easier to operate and less vulnerable as they don’t rely on huge, immovable, target-rich air bases. Precision-guided missiles and rockets can paralyze the civilian and military infrastructures of entire countries, thus paving the way to their defeat in war. These weapons most certainly can win wars, and Israel should do everything in its power not only to prevent defeat by them but to use them to defeat its enemies.

Rockets and missiles as originally conceived during WWII were not very accurate, making them unfit for precision strikes. As a result, they were used mainly to saturate troop concentrations and terrorize population centers. Improved accuracy could only be achieved via heavy, extremely costly, and highly complicated electromechanical guidance systems. Precision strikes thus remained the sole domain of manned combat aircraft that could close in upon targets and hit them with short-range precision-guided munitions.

Over time, however, technology has caught up. Today’s smartphones contain all the wherewithal necessary for precision guidance of vehicles, be they automobiles, drones, or missiles. For about a decade, it has been possible to incorporate such technologies into even simple Grads, converting unguided rockets into pinpoint precision missiles at modest expenditure.

This technological shift makes missiles as effective as air power for precision strikes. Precision-guided missiles are being developed and deployed today by all the major world powers as well as by many smaller states. In the Middle East, Iran is leading the way; it is currently converting all its older rockets and missiles into precision weapons. It also supplies its allies in the region with expertise and materials with which to build their own precision missile capabilities—hence the Precision Project of Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies in the region.

Why is Israel so anxious to frustrate Hezbollah’s Precision Project? Because once it is achieved, it will elevate Hezbollah’s war-making capability to that of a state military force. Hezbollah will possess all the advantages of an offensive air force without needing to own a single combat aircraft. Its precision missiles will be able to paralyze any vital installation or terrorize any civilian population center in Israel.

One of the biggest advantages of ground-launched rockets and missiles is their small footprint. Precision rockets and missiles enjoy the same advantage: their launchers are as small, stealthy, and hard to find and destroy as those of their more imprecise predecessors. Air power, by contrast, has the Achilles’ Heel of a reliance on huge air bases replete with kilometers-long runways, aircraft hangars, workshops, communication centers, and so on.

The vulnerability of giant, stationary air bases to precision missile strikes was demonstrated during the January 2020 Iranian missile strike on the US-operated Ein Assad air base in Iraq. Prior to the attack, the US teams at that base had launched a fleet of Predator UAVs for patrolling the base perimeter. One of the incoming Iranian missiles hit an underground communications conduit and cut the fiber optic lines between the UAV’s control vans and the system’s transceivers. This caused a loss of ground control over the entire UAV fleet. It took hours to reestablish communication via satellite and bring the UAVs back in.

Needless to say, US combat aircraft based in Iraq were powerless against this missile strike. Simply put, Iran gained air superiority over the air base by virtue of its precision missiles.

Once Hezbollah is equipped with precision missiles, it stands to reason that it will launch an Operation Focus of its own in the opening stage of any future war with Israel, firing salvoes of precision missiles to paralyze Israel’s air bases. Israel’s active defense structure—Iron Dome, David’s Sling, and any future high power laser defense system—will probably be able to destroy most incoming missiles, but not all of them. Active defense cannot guarantee a hermetic defense. Whatever precision missiles do manage to leak through the defensive shield could erode the IAF’s capability—witness what Iranian precision missiles did in Iraq.

Against a precision missile threat, active defense is a necessary but insufficient condition. It requires complementary measures. One such measure is passive defense, meaning the shielding of vital installations with thick concrete walls that could withstand direct hits. While technically feasible, this kind of response is very expensive and time-consuming. Even if the necessary budgets were allocated, there is no guarantee that the shielding would be completed in time.

Another response would be to diversify the IAF’s offensive capability to compensate for degradation of its offensive power during the initial phase of future war. If Hezbollah can establish an “air force without aircraft,” so can Israel.

Israel’s own Precision Project is more than a decade old. Israel’s defense industries have developed and tested a number of ground-launched precision missiles with varying ranges and warheads. To date, the IDF has agreed to buy only the shortest-range version, and even that only in limited numbers. Longer-range precision missiles, such as the recently tested 400 km range LORA, are successfully exported to foreign armies, but not to the IDF.

A recent article in Israel Defense magazine disclosed that this was the product of IAF objections to the provision of Israel’s ground forces with an independent precision strike capability beyond the range of 100 km. If that is true, then the obstacle in the path of augmenting the air force with “air power without aircraft” is not technological or operational but rather prestige and budgetary battles within the IDF.

Such inter-service turf wars are not unique to the IDF. One of the most notorious occurred in the US, when the US Air Force fought tooth and nail against the introduction of ballistic missiles into the US Navy submarine fleet as they would “compete” with its own strategic bombers. It took years for the Pentagon to resolve this battle.

It is far from sure that Israel can afford that kind of time.

A proposal to establish an Israeli missile strike force to back up Israel’s aircraft strike force was mooted a couple of years ago. As far as is known, it was rejected by the IDF. The relatively short-range precision missiles now acquired are slated to provide ground forces with long-range artillery support for ground operations, not to back up and complement the IAF’s capability to conduct strategic strikes when its bases are under precision missile fire.

The received wisdom that “missiles and rockets don’t win wars,” always a dubious assertion, is now obsolete and demonstrably false. Modern precision missiles have the same punch as combat aircraft yet are less vulnerable, as they don’t rely on huge, immovable, target-rich air bases. Precision-guided missiles and rockets can paralyze the civilian and military infrastructures of entire countries, paving the way to their defeat.

Today, precision-guided missiles and rockets most certainly can win wars. Israel should do everything in its power not only to prevent defeat by such weapons but to use them to defeat its enemies.

View PDF

Uzi Rubin was founding Director of the Israel Missile Defense Organization, which managed the Arrow program. He is now a senior research associate at the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat

he received wisdom that “missiles and rockets don't win wars,” always a dubious assertion, is now obsolete and demonstrably false. Modern precision-guided missiles have the same combat effectivene

besacenter.org

This is the reality that is being created by Iran's defence capability, your assertion is that all this is propaganda and that these nations are imagining everything. Here is another recent development, the Americans are redeploying their forces in the region due to the threats faced by Iranian missiles by their bases:

"Concerns about Iran’s conventional missile program have grown in recent years. In a 2019 attack on a Saudi oil refinery, Tehran paired cruise missiles with kamikaze drones to temporarily cut the nation’s oil production in half. Earlier this month, Tehran conducted military drills using drones in a similar fashion to the 2019 Saudi attack and also recently armed drones with air-to-air missiles.

Middle Eastern nations — and any U.S. bases housed there — could have only minutes to react if Iran fires missiles. While many U.S. allies in the Middle East have advanced missile defenses including Patriot and the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, or THAAD, those defenses proved imperfect against the kind of attack the Iranians launched against the Saudi oil refinery. "

Read below for more:

Saudis Expanding US Military Access to Airfields, Port, to Counter Iran

The year-old initiative is intended to give CENTCOM “more options” in a fight, general reveals.

www.defenseone.com

Therefore as you can see, real life is more different to your troglodytic claims. Propagandas would not be leading to these dynamic shifts in geopolitical realities. Like I said, you are out of your league here.

I asked you for specifics of what Iran invented or pioneered in the fields of missiles uavs and whatnot that others havent, you are just throwing photos of random stuff.

You were given direct videos of testimonies, which you did not bother to watch. Here, for the 3rd time, listen to the Israeli defence expert and get your answer regarding what and how Iran is pioneering.

Here is a testimony by another expert:

" According to Seth J. Frantzman, Executive Director of the Middle East Center for Reporting and Analysis, Iran has now become a superpower in drone making.

“I’ve argued Iran is a ‘drone superpower’ considering the expansion of its UAV arm in recent years,”

Iran began its drone program during the Iran-Iraq war with UAVs [Unmanned Aerial Vehicles] such as the Mohajer and Ababil series,”

Iran is very proud of its success in creating an indigenous drone industry and pioneering its own UAVs.”

India vs Iran: As India Still Relies On Israel, How Did Iran Emerge As A Drone Super Power Despite Crippling US Sanctions?

Iran President Hassan Rouhani, much like the leaders of other countries has his eyes hooked to the television screens to learn the outcome of the US Presidential Elections 2020, probably praying that President Donald Trump loses out to Joe Biden in order to “make Iran great again”. British...

eurasiantimes.com

You are essentially just refusing to see the sources and then claiming you were not given them.

Moreover, expert opinion is only "random stuff" according to your topsy turvy logic. Should we take the word of an online troll like yourself over that of renowned defence experts?

You said Indonesia would collapse under embargo, yet Indonesia is more self relliance than Iran

Your self reliance means little if you would be cut off from world financial systems and prevented from using the dollar. Unless a country is completely independent of the outside financial system, which you clearly are not then you will be extremely sensitive to sanctions. Sanctions will greatly diminish your exports and as a consequences revenues, economy 101. Keep reading and you will see more explanation below.

You have been living in your own bubble of Mullahs propaganda. Wake up dude, Iran industry besides oil and propaganda is non existent.

Iran's industry, science and technology is quite impressive is various sectors: For example Nuclear, nanotech, stem cell automobile, space, etc and recently has even entered the quantum physics domain. Moreover, lets use scimagojr to check science output. Iran is ranked 15th in the world. By comparison, Indonesia with its much larger population and non-sanctioned is ranked 21st.

SJR - International Science Ranking

www.scimagojr.com

If you want to learn more about Iran's scientific, technological and industrial capability simply come into the Iranian section and become more informed.

And you want to talk of military industry?

Oh yes, we do. I am still waiting for you to defend a single one of your comments so far. Everything you had stated so far has been debunked.

We can see it from your import-export matrix and GDP composition.

That is because basic elements of economics is going above your ahead. You do not seem to understand what the word sanctions means. Sanctions = restricting imports and exports.

That is enough telling for sane people that your „military industry“ is there for propaganda purposes

Propaganda purpose that has been used in real life with real effects? I am still waiting for you to explain these:

Question: Were the US soldiers in the above video hit by propaganda or a real missile?

since military industy actually counts as „industry“ within GDP composition

In order for your comment here to hold any merit, you would need to show the % composition of GDP as it relates to defence.
Iran's GDP in terms of PPP is $1.4 Trillion, show me the defence sectors % of this. But of course you do not have such a data because everything you have said so far is just invented facts and figures.

and your industry is 80% to 90% oil related. Unfortunately,

A basic and quick research would have shown you otherwise. Petroleum as a whole as a % of Iran's GDP is not even 20%:

From below article:

" Iran is not an oil economy. Iran’s gross domestic product (GDP) is dominated by the service sector"

https://www.ui.se/globalassets/butiken/ui-paper/2020/ui-paper-no.-6-2020.pdf

And in terms of oil revenues, oil sales is only around $8 billion dollars due to sanctions:

"Iran’s oil revenues fell steeply to $8 bln"
https:// english.alarabiya.net/business/energy/2020/06/14/Iran-s-oil-revenues-fell-steeply-from-100-bln-to-8-bln-in-2019-says-First-VP-Jahan​

So I am afraid you are once again lying. This goes back to what I told you from the beginning. It does not a matter what resources you have, if you cannot sell them then it means little. Repeat after me, sanctions, sanctions.

Furthermore, the halirious irony here is that Indonesia's oil and gas sector as % of its GDP is 12% which is close to Iran's 20%:

"Indonesia’s oil and gas sector is a vital foundation of the nation’s economy, representing 12 percent of GDP in 2018"

Analysis: Unlocking Indonesia’s $500b oil and gas revenue opportunity

Indonesia’s oil and gas sector is a vital foundation of the nation’s economy, representing 12 percent of GDP in 2018

www.thejakartapost.com

And in terms of % of export you do rely to a good extend on your petroleum, coal etc products. For example, you earned $22 billion from coal sales in 2018.

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/idn/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20Indonesia%20exported%20a,28%20exporter%20in%20the%20world.&text=The%20most%20recent%20exports%20are,and%20Rubber%20(%244.41B)

So let us not act as if you do not rely on natural resource sales. Having said that, bare in mind that Indonesia exported $197B in that period above. What do you think sanctions would to your ability to export if you were sanctioned in the same sense of Iran? You would most certainly collapse economically.

I pity you for living under such condition that you simply deny basic economic numbers in favor of propaganda photos.

Is this a propaganda photo?

What about this one?

Here, let this Saudi Colonel know that the UAV attack that reduced his country's Abqiaq oil facility by 50% was nothing more than a propaganda by Iran.

This attack must have been a figment of everyone's imagination I suppose?

Watch the above video by Saudi Colonel to see the propaganda Iranian weapons used in the attack.

From the above you can see one of suicide UAVs that was used in the attack:

And guess which nation this is UAV is from?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1350015618389602305

Still are not waking up to smell the coffee I see, then again this is a case of pretending to be asleep.

Indonesia military industry cannot produce a fraction of what Iran made? I mean if what you made is mostly propaganda designed to fool Iranians into supporting dicatorial regime then yes, we cant.

Definition of the word propaganda:

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view."

Now explain to me how weapon systems used in the real world can be classed as propaganda? So far, I have provided you mostly information from Iran own's adversaries and their own testimonies. You are basically out on the open naked with your flawed logic and continuing this mortification.

What did you think of the testimony of the Israeli general from my previous post? Let me guess, you did not listen.

Have a read of the below and let me know if it is also a propaganda:

How a ‘quantum change’ in missiles has made Iran a far more dangerous foe

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-a-quantum-change-in-missiles-has-made-iran-a-far-more-dangerous-foe/2020/01/07/63020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html

Otherwise Man, you cannot even move on from 60s 70s ship design

You mean like the US ships which are from decades ago as well? This is what I asked you in the previous comment, which you yet again avoided addressing:

Try addressing it this time.

As for Iranian navy, likes I have stated those ships are modernised with AESA radar, modern surface to air missiles. Nevertheless, Iran is actually producing its own submarines. Going forward, naval modernisation programs are in effect, for example heavy warships of the 6000-7000 ton and a 4500ton submarine are in the design phase.

Iranian Navy | News and Discussions

Not in the center. The SH-3D helicopter is 22.1 meters long and 5.13 meters high, the bridge currently measures a length of "80 meters". In order to build an adequate hangar in such dimensions as to be able to receive at least 3 SH-3D helicopters and the maintenance structures (for example 2...

defence.pk

while Indonesia is actively experimenting with stealth design

That is mostly a South Korean project of which you are merely a financier:

"The Korean side held 80 percent of the shares in the program while Indonesia, with its lower defense expenditure, less advanced military industrial base and smaller planned purchases, held the remaining 20 percent"

What the KF-X Stealth Fighter Program Means for the Future of South Korean Military Aviation

The KF-X is expected to be one of the world’s most successful fifth generation fighter programs.

thediplomat.com

More on this:

It seems they do not even consider you a major partner:

"A mock-up of the S Korean KFX Jet displayed for the first time at the ADEX 2019 event in Seoul has raised eyebrows as it does not have the moniker of its Indonesian partner.

Jakarta would have to pay 20% development cost in exchange of three prototypes

However, Indonesia has ran up an arrears of 230 billion won (US$200 million) by skipping milestone payments as part of its participation in the South Korean-led KF-X project, a spokesperson for the S Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), Kang Hwan-seok had told reporters in Seoul on October 22, 2018.

Further Indonesia has ‘stayed away’ from the aircraft development program since the latter half of 2017, calling for the renegotiation on the terms of contract, the spokesman had said. Indonesian officials later confirmed that they wanted a re-negotiation so that a part of the payment could be made in commodities."

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

You are acting as if you are involved heavily in creating technologies for this fighter jet. There is one thing to develop technology, it is another thing to pay cash for it be developed by more developed nation. So is this this? This is all the example you could muster?

and has been successful in exporting them as well.

Exporting what? Your imagination? This fighter jet is a Korean project and not even developed yet and you're claiming to have exported them? Look, I have a couple of Indonesian friends here so I do not want to talk down on Indonesia, but please do not make me laugh trying to compare yourself to Iran in the defence sector. Sure Iran has shortcomings in certain defence sectors but what it has managed to achieved under these sanctions is something you could only dream about.

 

[nufix]

Sure, show me a single example of such an accuracy e.g a clip of such a missile tests back in 70's/80's. You need to learn to substantiate your claims rather than just making them. Accurate ballistic missiles have only in the past 1-2 decades reached the level where conventionally they are reshaping how such assets are used and Iran has played a large part in this.

Below is a relatively large article written by Israeli military expert Uzi Rubin, Uzi describes brilliantly the outdatedness of this "missile do not win wars" idea. This is in large parts thanks to the demonstration by Iran in development and use of accurate ballistic missiles. Iran appears to be re-defining modern warfare given now we are seeing a push by the likes of Israelis to start pursuing such systems as offensive capability:

Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat

Israel and the Precision-Guided Missile Threat

he received wisdom that “missiles and rockets don't win wars,” always a dubious assertion, is now obsolete and demonstrably false. Modern precision-guided missiles have the same combat effectivene

besacenter.org

This is the reality that is being created by Iran's defence capability, your assertion is that all this is propaganda and that these nations are imagining everything. Here is another recent development, the Americans are redeploying their forces in the region due to the threats faced by Iranian missiles by their bases:

"Concerns about Iran’s conventional missile program have grown in recent years. In a 2019 attack on a Saudi oil refinery, Tehran paired cruise missiles with kamikaze drones to temporarily cut the nation’s oil production in half. Earlier this month, Tehran conducted military drills using drones in a similar fashion to the 2019 Saudi attack and also recently armed drones with air-to-air missiles.

Middle Eastern nations — and any U.S. bases housed there — could have only minutes to react if Iran fires missiles. While many U.S. allies in the Middle East have advanced missile defenses including Patriot and the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, or THAAD, those defenses proved imperfect against the kind of attack the Iranians launched against the Saudi oil refinery. "

Read below for more:

Saudis Expanding US Military Access to Airfields, Port, to Counter Iran

The year-old initiative is intended to give CENTCOM “more options” in a fight, general reveals.

www.defenseone.com

Therefore as you can see, real life is more different to your troglodytic claims. Propagandas would not be leading to these dynamic shifts in geopolitical realities. Like I said, you are out of your league here.



You were given direct videos of testimonies, which you did not bother to watch. Here, for the 3rd time, listen to the Israeli defence expert and get your answer regarding what and how Iran is pioneering.

Here is a testimony by another expert:

" According to Seth J. Frantzman, Executive Director of the Middle East Center for Reporting and Analysis, Iran has now become a superpower in drone making.

“I’ve argued Iran is a ‘drone superpower’ considering the expansion of its UAV arm in recent years,”

Iran began its drone program during the Iran-Iraq war with UAVs [Unmanned Aerial Vehicles] such as the Mohajer and Ababil series,”

Iran is very proud of its success in creating an indigenous drone industry and pioneering its own UAVs.”

India vs Iran: As India Still Relies On Israel, How Did Iran Emerge As A Drone Super Power Despite Crippling US Sanctions?

Iran President Hassan Rouhani, much like the leaders of other countries has his eyes hooked to the television screens to learn the outcome of the US Presidential Elections 2020, probably praying that President Donald Trump loses out to Joe Biden in order to “make Iran great again”. British...

eurasiantimes.com

You are essentially just refusing to see the sources and then claiming you were not given them.

Moreover, expert opinion is only "random stuff" according to your topsy turvy logic. Should we take the word of an online troll like yourself over that of renowned defence experts?



Your self reliance means little if you would be cut off from world financial systems and prevented from using the dollar. Unless a country is completely independent of the outside financial system, which you clearly are not then you will be extremely sensitive to sanctions. Sanctions will greatly diminish your exports and as a consequences revenues, economy 101. Keep reading and you will see more explanation below.



Iran's industry, science and technology is quite impressive is various sectors: For example Nuclear, nanotech, stem cell automobile, space, etc and recently has even entered the quantum physics domain. Moreover, lets use scimagojr to check science output. Iran is ranked 15th in the world. By comparison, Indonesia with its much larger population and non-sanctioned is ranked 21st.

View attachment 710659

SJR - International Science Ranking

www.scimagojr.com

If you want to learn more about Iran's scientific, technological and industrial capability simply come into the Iranian section and become more informed.



Oh yes, we do. I am still waiting for you to defend a single one of your comments so far. Everything you had stated so far has been debunked.




That is because basic elements of economics is going above your ahead. You do not seem to understand what the word sanctions means. Sanctions = restricting imports and exports.



Propaganda purpose that has been used in real life with real effects? I am still waiting for you to explain these:

Question: Were the US soldiers in the above video hit by propaganda or a real missile?



In order for your comment here to hold any merit, you would need to show the % composition of GDP as it relates to defence.
Iran's GDP in terms of PPP is $1.4 Trillion, show me the defence sectors % of this. But of course you do not have such a data because everything you have said so far is just invented facts and figures.



A basic and quick research would have shown you otherwise. Petroleum as a whole as a % of Iran's GDP is not even 20%:

From below article:

" Iran is not an oil economy. Iran’s gross domestic product (GDP) is dominated by the service sector"

View attachment 710675

https://www.ui.se/globalassets/butiken/ui-paper/2020/ui-paper-no.-6-2020.pdf

And in terms of oil revenues, oil sales is only around $8 billion dollars due to sanctions:

"Iran’s oil revenues fell steeply to $8 bln"
https:// english.alarabiya.net/business/energy/2020/06/14/Iran-s-oil-revenues-fell-steeply-from-100-bln-to-8-bln-in-2019-says-First-VP-Jahan​

So I am afraid you are once again lying. This goes back to what I told you from the beginning. It does not a matter what resources you have, if you cannot sell them then it means little. Repeat after me, sanctions, sanctions.

Furthermore, the halirious irony here is that Indonesia's oil and gas sector as % of its GDP is 12% which is close to Iran's 20%:

"Indonesia’s oil and gas sector is a vital foundation of the nation’s economy, representing 12 percent of GDP in 2018"

Analysis: Unlocking Indonesia’s $500b oil and gas revenue opportunity

Indonesia’s oil and gas sector is a vital foundation of the nation’s economy, representing 12 percent of GDP in 2018

www.thejakartapost.com

And in terms of % of export you do rely to a good extend on your petroleum, coal etc products. For example, you earned $22 billion from coal sales in 2018.


View attachment 710690

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/idn/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20Indonesia%20exported%20a,28%20exporter%20in%20the%20world.&text=The%20most%20recent%20exports%20are,and%20Rubber%20(%244.41B)

So let us not act as if you do not rely on natural resource sales. Having said that, bare in mind that Indonesia exported $197B in that period above. What do you think sanctions would to your ability to export if you were sanctioned in the same sense of Iran? You would most certainly collapse economically.



Is this a propaganda photo?

View attachment 710666

What about this one?

View attachment 710688

Here, let this Saudi Colonel know that the UAV attack that reduced his country's Abqiaq oil facility by 50% was nothing more than a propaganda by Iran.

This attack must have been a figment of everyone's imagination I suppose?

Watch the above video by Saudi Colonel to see the propaganda Iranian weapons used in the attack.

From the above you can see one of suicide UAVs that was used in the attack:

View attachment 710703

And guess which nation this is UAV is from?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1350015618389602305

Still are not waking up to smell the coffee I see, then again this is a case of pretending to be asleep.



Definition of the word propaganda:

"information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view."

Now explain to me how weapon systems used in the real world can be classed as propaganda? So far, I have provided you mostly information from Iran own's adversaries and their own testimonies. You are basically out on the open naked with your flawed logic and continuing this mortification.

What did you think of the testimony of the Israeli general from my previous post? Let me guess, you did not listen.

Have a read of the below and let me know if it is also a propaganda:

How a ‘quantum change’ in missiles has made Iran a far more dangerous foe

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-a-quantum-change-in-missiles-has-made-iran-a-far-more-dangerous-foe/2020/01/07/63020a0c-30c7-11ea-9313-6cba89b1b9fb_story.html

You mean like the US ships which are from decades ago as well? This is what I asked you in the previous comment, which you yet again avoided addressing:


View attachment 710677

Try addressing it this time.

As for Iranian navy, likes I have stated those ships are modernised with AESA radar, modern surface to air missiles. Nevertheless, Iran is actually producing its own submarines. Going forward, naval modernisation programs are in effect, for example heavy warships of the 6000-7000 ton and a 4500ton submarine are in the design phase.
I look at your navy, and you talk as if you able to produce anything noteworthy. The vast majority of your own navy is also quite old and based mostly on imports and foreign technology from South Korean submarine to small frigates from Netherlands. If you want to be taken seriously as at least make sure you are not a mostly import based military. There is a whole world of difference between being able to produce your own hardware like Iran, and paying cash to import hardware like your country, Saudis Arabia etc. Indigenous development is much more difficult than importing based system, hence why you see a delay in development. If you want to learn more regarding Iran's naval plans, the information is available in the below thread:

Iranian Navy | News and Discussions

Not in the center. The SH-3D helicopter is 22.1 meters long and 5.13 meters high, the bridge currently measures a length of "80 meters". In order to build an adequate hangar in such dimensions as to be able to receive at least 3 SH-3D helicopters and the maintenance structures (for example 2...

defence.pk

That is mostly a South Korean project of which you are merely a financier:

"The Korean side held 80 percent of the shares in the program while Indonesia, with its lower defense expenditure, less advanced military industrial base and smaller planned purchases, held the remaining 20 percent"

What the KF-X Stealth Fighter Program Means for the Future of South Korean Military Aviation

The KF-X is expected to be one of the world’s most successful fifth generation fighter programs.

thediplomat.com

More on this:

It seems they do not even consider you a major partner:

"A mock-up of the S Korean KFX Jet displayed for the first time at the ADEX 2019 event in Seoul has raised eyebrows as it does not have the moniker of its Indonesian partner.

Jakarta would have to pay 20% development cost in exchange of three prototypes

However, Indonesia has ran up an arrears of 230 billion won (US$200 million) by skipping milestone payments as part of its participation in the South Korean-led KF-X project, a spokesperson for the S Korean Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), Kang Hwan-seok had told reporters in Seoul on October 22, 2018.

Further Indonesia has ‘stayed away’ from the aircraft development program since the latter half of 2017, calling for the renegotiation on the terms of contract, the spokesman had said. Indonesian officials later confirmed that they wanted a re-negotiation so that a part of the payment could be made in commodities."

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

You are acting as if you are involved heavily in creating technologies for this fighter jet. There is one thing to develop technology, it is another thing to pay cash for it be developed by more developed nation. So is this this? This is all the example you could muster?



Exporting what? Your imagination? This fighter jet is a Korean project and not even developed yet and you're claiming to have exported them? Look, I have a couple of Indonesian friends here so I do not want to talk down on Indonesia, but please do not make me laugh trying to compare yourself to Iran in the defence sector. Sure Iran has shortcomings in certain defence sectors but what it has managed to achieved under these sanctions is something you could only dream about.

Man as expected, I asked you a simple question and to the drain your comments go. Just list what Iran invented in the fields of missiles, uavs and others that other countries had not developed in the past and you stick to your propaganda sources and shallow economic understanding. I mean look at your references! You think KFX is the only projects Indonesian aerospace company has lol. It almost looks like you already have a template for the replies as well lol.

Beyond that, it is worthless to continue this even if I wanted to spare time to provide you with sources and whatnot. Unlike you, I am not getting paid for this since we have no need for chest pumping lol. We do not live in a bubble of propaganda and imagination of destroying this and that when having little to no capability of doing so. (Israel, US, Saudis still standing yo!)

Fact is, Iranians fled and are still fleeing to Europe science is not appreciated there beyond tools of propaganda. I know coz I have met them here. So please stop trying to convince how great today‘s Iran is when you got tons of your own people basically running from it. Dude wake up, you got brain drain issue.