Indigenous "Kaveri" Project shelved by DRODO?

[TsAr]

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/let-them-take-flight/article26502547.ece?homepage=true

At the Aero-India 2019 airshow and aviation exhibition, held in Bengaluru last month, there were two developments of significance, for India’s national security as well its moribund aeronautical industry. On February 20, the Indian Air Force and the aviation community heaved a collective sigh of relief after the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas Mark 1, received its long-awaited Final Operational Clearance; this means it is combat-ready and can be exploited to the limits of its approved ‘envelope’. However, a day later, came a rather unwelcome report: a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) announcement at the show of its decision to shelve the Kaveri turbo-jet engine project. While one waits for this report to be confirmed or denied, given the criticality of this engine for India’s aeronautical industry, the issue deserves a close look.

 

[shambhu]

so what.

 

[TsAr]

so what.

So you think that its not a big thing that after spending money for decades the project has been shelved? My question was for the senior members like @Vibrio @MilSpec @Joe Shearer here who could elaborate on the reasons and repercussions.

 

[Daghalodi]

Modi sarkar and corporate india is more interested in rafales!!!

 

[Awan68]

Why am i not surprised lol.

 

[MilSpec]

So you think that its not a big thing that after spending money for decades the project has been shelved? My question was for the senior members like @Vibrio @MilSpec @Joe Shearer here who could elaborate on the reasons and repercussions.

Watch the space, rather than keeping the same project alive, a new project will be soon sanctioned with most likely a m88 core.

 

[Zee-shaun]

Hmmm the vedic technology seem to be failing the Indians.
On a serious not, how can a project fail so badly after intensive input from Russia and France?

 

[Joe Shearer]

So you think that its not a big thing that after spending money for decades the project has been shelved? My question was for the senior members like @Vibrio @MilSpec @Joe Shearer here who could elaborate on the reasons and repercussions.

My team had a CAD/CAM section, and we did some work in that technical area. The worst disaster that we saw was GTRE's singularly futile and clueless efforts on the Kaveri. That entire organisation ought to have been disbanded. It is a hugely beneficial thing that at least that sickest of sick projects has been 'shelved' (I suppose that by that same style of linguistics, King Louis XVI might be considered to have been 'wardrobed').

Trust me, killing this part stone dead and starting with a flat table is the best thing that can be done for the Tejas.

Hmmm the vedic technology seem to be failing the Indians.
On a serious not, how can a project fail so badly after intensive input from Russia and France?

The core work was useless. What the Russians and the French did would have produced a new engine; they would have had to get the engineers at GTRE to clear up everything and start from scratch. This could not be done for 'political' reasons.

I note the reference to Vedic technology with disfavour. That kind of religious and national slur is not a wise step.

 

[TsAr]

My team had a CAD/CAM section, and we did some work in that technical area. The worst disaster that we saw was GTRE's singularly futile and clueless efforts on the Kaveri. That entire organisation ought to have been disbanded. It is a hugely beneficial thing that at least that sickest of sick projects has been 'shelved' (I suppose that by that same style of linguistics, King Louis XVI might be considered to have been 'wardrobed').

Trust me, killing this part stone dead and starting with a flat table is the best thing that can be done for the Tejas.



The core work was useless. What the Russians and the French did would have produced a new engine; they would have had to get the engineers at GTRE to clear up everything and start from scratch. This could not be done for 'political' reasons.

I note the reference to Vedic technology with disfavour. That kind of religious and national slur is not a wise step.

So DRDO has decided to start from a clean sheet now. But starting again what time lines are we looking at?
Do you think that they would be successful this time?
I do not see any heads rolling in DRDO, how would the same people end with a successful product this time?
Does DRDO has the capacity to pursue an engine project along with the AMCA project?
@MilSpec @Joe Shearer

 

[Beast]

Indian need to lower the spec of kaveri engine. They targeted a thrust to weigh ratio of 9:1 which is unrealistic. Even 7:1 for a first try on turbofan is acceptable.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So DRDO has decided to start from a clean sheet now. But starting again what time lines are we looking at?
Do you think that they would be successful this time?
I do not see any heads rolling in DRDO, how would the same people end with a successful product this time?
Does DRDO has the capacity to pursue an engine project along with the AMCA project?
@MilSpec @Joe Shearer

DRDO used to make the rest of the world tear its hair out in large handfuls; I was no exception and a cursory glance at my head will bear out my assertion. It has the most extraordinary talent - take the DLRL or the LRDE for example for the best side - and the worst incompetence, and that was without a doubt the GTRE. I just don't know enough to say what happened, and how it totally lost its way. We were, thank Heaven, not directly concerned, because the reports of our engineers made our blood freeze.

The capacity is there; how it will be used is the question. The French have committed themselves to making a success of things, and whatever they did - they were deeply involved with my organisation - they performed with professional efficiency and a high level of talent. There is no reason to doubt that they will quickly make things ship-shape.

It is not for me to hazard a guess on what time-lines there might be. That is the job of the DRDO, and of the Scientific Advisor. Let them do their job. Meanwhile, replacement engines are available from OEMs begging and pleading on their knees to be of service.

 

[proudindian20]

Don't worry about it. Use GE engines for now and pick this project up again once we've gained more experience developing Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

 

[amardeep mishra]

DRDO used to make the rest of the world tear its hair out in large handfuls; I was no exception and a cursory glance at my head will bear out my assertion. It has the most extraordinary talent - take the DLRL or the LRDE for example for the best side - and the worst incompetence, and that was without a doubt the GTRE. I just don't know enough to say what happened, and how it totally lost its way. We were, thank Heaven, not directly concerned, because the reports of our engineers made our blood freeze.

The capacity is there; how it will be used is the question. The French have committed themselves to making a success of things, and whatever they did - they were deeply involved with my organisation - they performed with professional efficiency and a high level of talent. There is no reason to doubt that they will quickly make things ship-shape.

It is not for me to hazard a guess on what time-lines there might be. That is the job of the DRDO, and of the Scientific Advisor. Let them do their job. Meanwhile, replacement engines are available from OEMs begging and pleading on their knees to be of service.

Hi @Joe Shearer
You are right, the fact is, there are a few labs in DRDO that are doing phenomenal- some really good work- like the missile cluster in Hyd (ASL, RCI, DRDL) and labs in bangalore like (LRDE) etc and a few in north etc. Rest other labs just do downright mediocre work and push things down. I have very close friends at GTRE and things I hear are just pittyfull. Such a sheer waste of talent I must confess. A lot of friends say that it is due to some mistakes the higher ups made during the very early stages of the design. The goal was just way too ambitious for an India of 80s and 90s! They should have started with something like micro turbofan then graduating to something like HTFE/HTSE-1200 and then finally a 80+kN turbofan. In spite of all this, I still believe that non-afterburning variant of this engine can find use in large UAVs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi @Joe Shearer
You are right, the fact is, there are a few labs in DRDO that are doing phenomenal- some really good work- like the missile cluster in Hyd (ASL, RCI, DRDL) and labs in bangalore like (LRDE) etc and a few in north etc. Rest other labs just do downright mediocre work and push things down. I have very close friends at GTRE and things I hear are just pittyfull. Such a sheer waste of talent I must confess. A lot of friends say that it is due to some mistakes the higher ups made during the very early stages of the design. The goal was just way too ambitious for an India of 80s and 90s! They should have started with something like micro turbofan then graduating to something like HTFE/HTSE-1200 and then finally a 80+kN turbofan. In spite of all this, I still believe that non-afterburning variant of this engine can find use in large UAVs.

You are bang on; I was trying to explain LRDE's excellent work to @jbgt90, but he wasn't having any. Such a pity; really good group, working very well.

Let's hope that you are right about a scaled down target being a useful outcome.

 

[amardeep mishra]

You are bang on; I was trying to explain LRDE's excellent work to @jbgt90, but he wasn't having any. Such a pity; really good group, working very well.

Let's hope that you are right about a scaled down target being a useful outcome.

@Joe Shearer
Yes LRDE is one of those labs in bangalore that are doing well. In fact the only two clusters that are doing good work are those in Hyd and Bangalore. As for LRDE, they have recently given the ToT of their MPR to BEL for manufacturing. This piece of information came in DRDO's newletter for the month of March. What this means is that LRDE's indigenous MPR variant has passed all user hurdles and is being mass produced. It is now time to graduate to HPR (High power radar) level of radars with ranges of >800km. What a lot of Pakistanis and some Indians dont realize is that Indian designed radars have replaced various foreign radars that used to be in service of armed forces. Now today, In fact all of ground based radars are of Indian origin with the exception of Israeli MPR(I am not counting the swordfish/green pine, as it is for strategic purposes!). But with LRDE's MPR now getting to mass production stage, it means this particular radar can be put to use in areas as diverse as rajasthan, kargil to NE. Also fighter borne AESA radars is one arena where LRDE needs to put in more effort. Because one who holds the source codes of radar, also generally holds the interceptors. RF seeker for BVRs have already been done by consortium of DRDO/pvt sector, what remains is the AESA radar. Hopefully they are able to finish the trials of the uttam in next 2years.