India's self-goal: How we made Pakistan our equal

[SrNair]

Only media is making such stupid delusions .For a certain extent some of the actions GoI also made problem.
Our jingoistic media donot represent the nation.

 

[Arsalan]

excellent read.I just hope i remember making a detail reply to this in the morning. A great point of view indeed.

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @nair @WAJsal following this?

 

[cloud4000]

Indian media has always been obsessed with India because its viewers are obsessed with Pakistan. Indian media is not much serving the Indian government and Modi as serving their market.

This is being said, while Indian media is busy being cheerleaders, they should be asking the following questions:

1. Where is proof for the surgical strike?
2. Was this surgical strike done for political gain?
3. If Pakistan terrorist state, why does India still trade with them?
4. Why hasn't Indian government declared Pakistan a terrorist state?
5. Why haven't India recalled its High Commissioner from Pakistan and/or expelled Pakistan's?

Of course, asking such questions will make people doubt your patriotism. The same thing happened in 2004, when US invaded Iraq over dubious reasons. But questioning the government was tantamount to treason and being weak on the war against terror.

 

[Hellfire]

excellent read.I just hope i remember making a detail reply to this in the morning. A great point of view indeed.

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @nair @WAJsal following this?

Suitable post for PDF. Unfortunately, farcial write up. Basically a clueless idiot. There is no equitible pedestal on which the two nations stand. There is a gap and it is widening.

Delusions of equality held by GoP since day 1 of formation are coming to a bitter end.

Anyways, thanks for the tag. The forum has become too toxic for my taste.

Logging out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

U know thats the problem where each side says that "I am right so better put ur house in order". This thing of pointing fingers is taking us nowhere. Again I wud refrain from pointing fingers at anyone but wud try my best as just one individual to play my part in deescalating things rather than being a source of further escalation.

I can see why ur red corner is having abundant numbers. And when I see likes of such remarks I am back to zero and wonder if we wud be at peace....ever.

You could start by opposing rape threads.

 

[B2B]

For peace to prevail between India and Pakistan. India first has to let go of its delusions of being a regional hegemon. Pakistan wouldn't be taking dictations from Hindu-stanis.

That's a misnomer, fed to you by these fringe elements for their personal benefits.

 

[Joe Shearer]

excellent read.I just hope i remember making a detail reply to this in the morning. A great point of view indeed.

@Joe Shearer @hellfire @nair @WAJsal following this?

I am, with some hope that there are members like @shah1398, @SrNair , @B2B and Dev Destroyer ; with some pessimism considering that there are members like @nightRider , @SHAHEEN EYE and @ISI. Reading their posts is very depressing, considering that some of them are old enough to refrain from childish behaviour.

You already know my views on the problems created by a particular ideology and its party having come to power. Why that has to make Pakistanis behave like savages beats me.

 

[coffee_cup]

You already know my views on the problems created by a particular ideology and its party having come to power. Why that has to make Pakistanis behave like savages beats me.

Very simple Joe.

People like you are becoming a rare breed in India. Unfortunately majority of Indians that we counter in online forums are absolute extremist nutters, who would want nothing less than total annihilation of Pakistan.

Electing fanatics like Modi and co with a thumping majority is just a simple indicator about how the majority of Indians think.

So can you then blame Pakistanis for gradually losing any hope of peace with fanatic India and "behave like savages" when replying to those fanatics?

 

[GreenFalcon]

I think this obsession is mutual from both sides of the border, and had there not been hostilities between Pakistan and India, both countries would've been in a way better position than where they stand today...

 

[Verve]

Whenever i have a talk with intellectual of pakistani origin then they show me the past and thats their problem. We Need to look for the future. I appreciate the word that i have been looking all along.

I love the way Indians blame Pakistan for the way they actually think.

It's not us talking about space ships 7,000, or whatever that number is, ago. It's you and your ruling elite talking about Akhand Bharat with posters of it in all their main offices. It's your ruling elite talking of reverting residents of Akgand Bharat to Hinduism.

It's you guys living in the past and wanting a repeat of it. We are happy with Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Very simple Joe.

People like you are becoming a rare breed in India. Unfortunately majority of Indians that we counter in online forums are absolute extremist nutters, who would want nothing less than total annihilation of Pakistan.

Electing fanatics like Modi and co with a thumping majority is just a simple indicator about how the majority of Indians think.

So can you then blame Pakistanis for gradually losing any hope of peace with fanatic India and "behave like savages" when replying to those fanatics?

If you read the Facebook pages of Rajiv Tyagi (ex-IAF) and Tapesh Chandra Sen (ex-IA), you will see for yourself that we are a relatively silent majority.

You are absolutely right in saying that most Indians that you encounter on online fora are absolute extremist nutters, or extremist nutters, or nutters simple - the whole range is well-represented. But you must also recall that there are those of moderate views who are enraged by what they read Pakistanis writing, and respond far more violently than they would do in normal times.

About the thumping majority - I don't know why this occurs again and again.

Modi's core vote is in the region of between 13 to 17% (a large variation because it covers all shades and colours of supporter, supporters of his basic ideology); the number who voted for economic advance and for the eradication of UPA2's unbelievable corruption, was about 15 to 17%; around 2 to 3% were random voters. He got a total of 37% of the votes cast. Unless he and his troupe keep doing public stunts, that second 15 to 17% will drift away to the next side-show.

I don't blame Pakistanis; even the nice ones have been misbehaving. Look at you yourself. I admit that you make me lose my temper more than anyone else, except Hindutvavadi nutters, always top of my list, religious fanatics, Windjammer, whom I have happily on my ignore list, and ajtr, a deeply wounded soul. And script kiddy equivalents, who have elected to spend most of their time here. But when you write calmly, it isn't rocket science to figure out that you are the kind of person with whom one can hold an edifying conversation.

I think this obsession is mutual from both sides of the border, and had there not been hostilities between Pakistan and India, both countries would've been in a way better position than where they stand today...

True.

And from my point of view as an historian, the picture is pretty one-sided.

I don't expect you to agree.

 

[GreenFalcon]

True.

And from my point of view as an historian, the picture is pretty one-sided.

I don't expect you to agree.

I agree Pakistan has definitely been more aggressive in this obsession to see who's stronger but I also feel this obsession helped them keep up with the world but that's just me.

I feel that over the past few decades, it has been more about insecurity than obsession. Now, where both countries stand with 100+ nukes each and millions are soldiers that are ready to die at a moments notice, we have to ask ourselves, was it really worth it?

The people on both sides of the border just want decent food, clothing, housing, peace and security for themselves and their families. Tanks, guns, planes, ships, and missiles don't feed the people, the world has more than enough resources to feed and take care of every human being but we are busy fighting each other.

My point is that Pakistan and India need to forget everything that happened in the past and find a solution that permanently brings peace back into this region.

 

[coffee_cup]

You are absolutely right in saying that most Indians that you encounter on online fora are absolute extremist nutters, or extremist nutters, or nutters simple - the whole range is well-represented. But you must also recall that there are those of moderate views who are enraged by what they read Pakistanis writing, and respond far more violently than they would do in normal times.

See, for me, at the end of the day it is called "Pakistan Defence Forum" and it is the main reason I joined it.
I am pleasantly surprised to see so many other nationalities including Indians taking part here as well.

Now what happens is that more often than not you see tr@sh originating from Indian media and govt. finding its way here. Twisting and distorting facts to suit Indian narrative. It is necessary to counter it (purely Pakistani view).

So that people reading that tr@sh understand that India is as much responsible for spreading cross-border terrorism in the region as it accuses Pakistan for. Same thing goes for extremism, Indians themselves have as many extremists (if not more), as they accuse Pakistan of having.

About the thumping majority - I don't know why this occurs again and again.

Modi's core vote is in the region of between 13 to 17% (a large variation because it covers all shades and colours of supporter, supporters of his basic ideology); the number who voted for economic advance and for the eradication of UPA2's unbelievable corruption, was about 15 to 17%; around 2 to 3% were random voters. He got a total of 37% of the votes cast. Unless he and his troupe keep doing public stunts, that second 15 to 17% will drift away to the next side-show.

Analogy:

For an outsider it would not matter for what reasons "Hafiz Saeed" is elected PM with a thumping majority. That some have voted him for his ideology, some for his "economical" policies, some for his charities or some for just having a bushy beard..

At the end of the day, an extremist gets elected with a thumping majority and it is alarming to see the kind of support he enjoys within the majority of people.

I don't blame Pakistanis; even the nice ones have been misbehaving. Look at you yourself. I admit that you make me lose my temper more than anyone else, except Hindutvavadi nutters, always top of my list, religious fanatics, Windjammer, whom I have happily on my ignore list, and ajtr, a deeply wounded soul. And script kiddy equivalents, who have elected to spend most of their time here. But when you write calmly, it isn't rocket science to figure out that you are the kind of person with whom one can hold an edifying conversation.

Apologies Joe.

But whenever I encounter sentences or terms like "Pakistani terrorists", "Pakistani cross-border terrorism", I'll always make sure that they are countered by equal mentions of "Indian terrorists" or "Indian cross-border terrorism".

For my part, I'll keep fighting to make sure that the former never becomes a part of acceptable history without the latter being mentioned as well.

So as long as Indians keep crowing that line, Pakistanis will retaliate and saner people like you will unfortunately have to bear with that.

It is about the image man and why should I accept anything that destroys mine? Especially coming from "existential enemy" who herself is 10 times worse?

But that apart, I always enjoying our conversations.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I agree Pakistan has definitely been more aggressive in this obsession to see who's stronger but I also feel this obsession helped them keep up with the world but that's just me.

I feel that over the past few decades, it has been more about insecurity than obsession. Now, where both countries stand with 100+ nukes each and millions are soldiers that are ready to die at a moments notice, we have to ask ourselves, was it really worth it?

The people on both sides of the border just want decent food, clothing, housing, peace and security for themselves and their families. Tanks, guns, planes, ships, and missiles don't feed the people, the world has more than enough resources to feed and take care of every human being but we are busy fighting each other.

My point is that Pakistan and India need to forget everything that happened in the past and find a solution that permanently brings peace back into this region.

That is an incredibly insightful point! And I read the rest of your post with increasing disbelief. Nothing you have written in the past - no post - prepared me for this.

I cannot help saying with some bemusement that there is not a word in your post that I could legitimately change. If those bozos leading my country were to stop buying big, shiny toys and concentrate on roti, kapda and makan, we could beat in the heads of any country in the world - if we should wish to, which would be a very strange desire - with economic strength alone. On a healthier note, we could buy enough from our neighbours to boost their economies by a significant percentage.

I must say, this kind of note is reason enough to ignore all the signals being sent to us by the PDF administration, and to stay on, unlike several of my reasonable and open-minded colleagues.

See, for me, at the end of the day it is called "Pakistan Defence Forum" and it is the main reason I joined it.
I am pleasantly surprised to see so many other nationalities including Indians taking part here as well.

Now what happens is that more often than not you see tr@sh originating from Indian media and govt. finding its way here. Twisting and distorting facts to suit Indian narrative. It is necessary to counter it (purely Pakistani view).

So that people reading that tr@sh understand that India is as much responsible for spreading cross-border terrorism in the region as it accuses Pakistan for. Same thing goes for extremism, Indians themselves have as many extremists (if not more), as they accuse Pakistan of having.

Analogy:

For an outsider it would not matter for what reasons "Hafiz Saeed" is elected PM with a thumping majority. That some have voted him for his ideology, some for his "economical" policies, some for his charities or some for just having a bushy beard..

At the end of the day, an extremist gets elected with a thumping majority and it is alarming to see the kind of support he enjoys within the majority of people.

Apologies Joe.

But whenever I encounter sentences or terms like "Pakistani terrorists", "Pakistani cross-border terrorism", I'll always make sure that they are countered by equal mentions of "Indian terrorists" or "Indian cross-border terrorism".

For my part, I'll keep fighting to make sure that the former never becomes a part of acceptable history without the latter being mentioned as well.

So as long as Indians keep crowing that line, Pakistanis will retaliate and saner people like you will unfortunately have to bear with that
It is about the image man and why should I accept anything that destroys mine? Especially coming from "existential enemy" who herself is 10 times worse?

But that apart, I always enjoying our conversations.

Starting from the back, I cannot say I always enjoyed our conversations - being angry is not a pleasant state of mind - but I always respected and liked the spunk of the other conversationalist. It is funny to see how different you are on the boil, and off.

For trash from India, it is repeated here by trash from India. Why don't you take the posts of the sensible members and go by that? Would you like us to judge Pakistanis by the quality of posts of Windjammer, or Areesh, or such trolls?

What I cannot get over is why the administration does not take a tougher stand with those types, who cause all the hungama, from BOTH sides of the fence.

You talked about the ideology being the thing that mattered, not how the ideologue got there. Quite so. Now go back and see how Indians reacted to this - event ; it's all on record. And those creatures DON'T have the support of the majority of people; far from it. Straightaway from the election results, 63% DID NOT vote for him. Which is the majority then? Furthermore, the gulf is deepening, as every dire prediction is fulfilled.

I won't answer what you wrote about the terrorism bit, except to say that you did get the support of people by saying what you did, and I got gutter language for rejecting it. Not your fault, just PDF's way of saying, buzz off, bud.

 

[GreenFalcon]

That is an incredibly insightful point! And I read the rest of your post with increasing disbelief. Nothing you have written in the past - no post - prepared me for this.

I cannot help saying with some bemusement that there is not a word in your post that I could legitimately change. If those bozos leading my country were to stop buying big, shiny toys and concentrate on roti, kapda and makan, we could beat in the heads of any country in the world - if we should wish to, which would be a very strange desire - with economic strength alone. On a healthier note, we could buy enough from our neighbours to boost their economies by a significant percentage.

I must say, this kind of note is reason enough to ignore all the signals being sent to us by the PDF administration, and to stay on, unlike several of my reasonable and open-minded colleagues.

I agree trade among each other reasonably benefits the people in both countries. If we take the European Union example and apply it to the South Asian continent, imagine the possibilities.

We all goof around here on PDF and most of us are sitting in foreign countries, enjoying the best of what the west has to offer, without caring for reality. For many this has become a place to goof around and this leads to craziness in almost every other thread, instead of having mutual dialogue and discipline.
I, myself have gotten myself involved in many mud-slinging threads but believe me sir, I try to learn, understand, and share my thoughts. Communication is the key but the other party has to be willing to listen as well.