asaad-ul-islam
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Indian Army "Faked" Battle of Laungewalla
- Thread starter AgNoStiC MuSliM
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AgNoStiC MuSliM
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My apologies to everyone involved - I dragged an issue out best left alone.
Now back to the topic on hand:
It does appear that the historical record on the BR website does not indicate that IA had much to do with any fighting initially, in fact the first one or two pages of the incident are full of descriptions of IAF sorties and attacks.
I never watched the movie border, how does it present the account?
Now back to the topic on hand:
It does appear that the historical record on the BR website does not indicate that IA had much to do with any fighting initially, in fact the first one or two pages of the incident are full of descriptions of IAF sorties and attacks.
I never watched the movie border, how does it present the account?
Tiki Tam Tam
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Atma Singh should give details if he feels it is a co.ck up.
Failing which, he should coc'k up.
There is no doubt that the IAF played a role, but then if the Indian Infantry had not stood its ground, can the air stop enemy armour from moving in at all?
It was a two dimension hammer and anvil action.
If movies are 'historical records', then Arnold Schwezneggar and the Rambo man ( I forget his name as I don't see movies) (OK while editing I remembered his name, Slyvester Stallone) deserve all the highest decorations of the world rolled in war!
The films are so melodramatic that it makes one sick!
Haven't you seen men in uniform wearing Ordnance cap badges with EME lanyards and fighting as Infantry and get Param Vir Chakras by acts which are so silly that one is embarrassed!
Failing which, he should coc'k up.
There is no doubt that the IAF played a role, but then if the Indian Infantry had not stood its ground, can the air stop enemy armour from moving in at all?
It was a two dimension hammer and anvil action.
If movies are 'historical records', then Arnold Schwezneggar and the Rambo man ( I forget his name as I don't see movies) (OK while editing I remembered his name, Slyvester Stallone) deserve all the highest decorations of the world rolled in war!
The films are so melodramatic that it makes one sick!
Haven't you seen men in uniform wearing Ordnance cap badges with EME lanyards and fighting as Infantry and get Param Vir Chakras by acts which are so silly that one is embarrassed!
"but we have to stick to facts as we establish them"
Who said that facts established were not wrong in the first place?
Venkat,
I strongly suggest you apologise to Sir Murad for being rude, your attitude sucks!
He's one of the most respected man in PAF, atleast show some respect when talking to a veteran.
Btw Sir Murad doesn't need to ask us to ban you, your already heading that way.
Neo
MastanKhan
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Neo,
I would be the last person to ask to neutralize someone, but this kid should have been sent packing a long time ago. He has been haranguing Muradk for a while now. We should not let that happen again.
I would be the last person to ask to neutralize someone, but this kid should have been sent packing a long time ago. He has been haranguing Muradk for a while now. We should not let that happen again.
mujahideen
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Mr. Venkat,
You have the right to express your opinion but the way in which you did it was wrong. I agree with Neo that you should apologize to Sir Murad.
To All Members,
Since we are on the topic of apologizeing I would also like to apologize all all members who think that I have insulated them in any way, believe me this is not my goal and will never be my goal. I know that I have opinions and everyone around me has an opinion, we must share those opinions in such a way that we may learn from eachother. I try my best not to hurt anyone because honestly I have great respect for all you guys and if I do make a mistake I ask for your forgiveness.
Thank You,
Mujahideen
You have the right to express your opinion but the way in which you did it was wrong. I agree with Neo that you should apologize to Sir Murad.
To All Members,
Since we are on the topic of apologizeing I would also like to apologize all all members who think that I have insulated them in any way, believe me this is not my goal and will never be my goal. I know that I have opinions and everyone around me has an opinion, we must share those opinions in such a way that we may learn from eachother. I try my best not to hurt anyone because honestly I have great respect for all you guys and if I do make a mistake I ask for your forgiveness.
Thank You,
Mujahideen
Muradk
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Spart: you are very right,
PAF was neither deployed to cover the area nor it was informed about this adventure. It was open desert and the IAF had a Ball of a time and all the tanks were destroyed, One must remember that Army deployed AAA and supplied fuel to a base if it were to be activated. In this case Jacobabad/ Sukker were not operative. PAF knew when the PAK Army started its operation and it was to late .
The Battle of Longewala fought between assaulting Pakistani forces and Indian defences at the Indian border post of Longewala, in Thar Desert of the Rajasthan state in India. It is generally regarded to be one of the decisive battles in the two week long war.
Against considerable odds, the Indian 'A' company of 120 odd soldiers of the 23rd Border Security Forces, Punjab Regiment, managed to hold a 2000-3000 strong assault force of the 51st Infantry Brigade of the Pakistani Army- backed by the 22nd Armoured Regiment
Until the army’s offensive was launched, the PAF was to maintain offensive pressure on the IAF with sustained strikes against some of its forward and rear bases, in order to inhibit – both physically and psychologically – the enemy’s ability to act against either the Pak Army in the field or other targets on Pakistani territory, including the PAF’s own air bases and other installations. During this same period, the PAF was also to provide whatever air support was needed for the Pak Army’s holding actions along the entire 3,700-kilometer border from Kashmir to Kutch. These relatively shallow penetration actions were meant to tie down as many of the enemy’s resources as possible and to try to achieve a favourable tactical posture in the process.
As war progressed, the PAF was also to provide whatever air support it could to Pak navy within the limits of its air-to-sea capability, which in real terms, was near zero. The PAF did not have a maritime recce capability of any consequence, and totally lacked any special anti-ship weapons such as torpedoes or mines. These PAF limitations had remained unchanged since before the 65 war and naval headquarters (NHQ) staff had been aware of them all.
When Pak Army knew that the guys are in trouble and there were no IAF in the vicinity they sent L-19s with fuel , water, Medi, food but it was too late .
my youngest brother who was a lt in Army Aviation did 12 missions on Bird Dog over laungwala.
supplying the above.
PAF was neither deployed to cover the area nor it was informed about this adventure. It was open desert and the IAF had a Ball of a time and all the tanks were destroyed, One must remember that Army deployed AAA and supplied fuel to a base if it were to be activated. In this case Jacobabad/ Sukker were not operative. PAF knew when the PAK Army started its operation and it was to late .
The Battle of Longewala fought between assaulting Pakistani forces and Indian defences at the Indian border post of Longewala, in Thar Desert of the Rajasthan state in India. It is generally regarded to be one of the decisive battles in the two week long war.
Against considerable odds, the Indian 'A' company of 120 odd soldiers of the 23rd Border Security Forces, Punjab Regiment, managed to hold a 2000-3000 strong assault force of the 51st Infantry Brigade of the Pakistani Army- backed by the 22nd Armoured Regiment
Until the army’s offensive was launched, the PAF was to maintain offensive pressure on the IAF with sustained strikes against some of its forward and rear bases, in order to inhibit – both physically and psychologically – the enemy’s ability to act against either the Pak Army in the field or other targets on Pakistani territory, including the PAF’s own air bases and other installations. During this same period, the PAF was also to provide whatever air support was needed for the Pak Army’s holding actions along the entire 3,700-kilometer border from Kashmir to Kutch. These relatively shallow penetration actions were meant to tie down as many of the enemy’s resources as possible and to try to achieve a favourable tactical posture in the process.
As war progressed, the PAF was also to provide whatever air support it could to Pak navy within the limits of its air-to-sea capability, which in real terms, was near zero. The PAF did not have a maritime recce capability of any consequence, and totally lacked any special anti-ship weapons such as torpedoes or mines. These PAF limitations had remained unchanged since before the 65 war and naval headquarters (NHQ) staff had been aware of them all.
When Pak Army knew that the guys are in trouble and there were no IAF in the vicinity they sent L-19s with fuel , water, Medi, food but it was too late .
my youngest brother who was a lt in Army Aviation did 12 missions on Bird Dog over laungwala.
supplying the above.
BATMAN
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Army lied to the nation on Laungewala, says air ace
Two days after Hindustan Times published the shocking revelation by Maj. Gen. Atma Singh (retd) that the Army faked the famous battle, an air ace who controlled the strikes that finished off the Pakistani armour has said the Army has hoodwinked the nation with false tales of valour.
Some other veterans of the 1971 war have also raised questions about this golden moment in Indias military history, romanticised by the 1997 Sunny Deol superhit, Border.
Air Marshal MS Bawa (retd), who was commanding the Jaisalmer base from where the IAF Hunter fighters operated in the battle, told Hindustan Times, The services were the only organisation with some credibility. The Army has torn that apart by faking the entire operation.
Atma Singh, who won the Vir Chakra for gallantry at Laungewala, had said no ground battle was fought, and the Army had merely rehearsed the operation on a sand model to cover up for its senior commanders incompetence.
The Army had, on February 24, given Defence Minister A.K. Antony a blow-by-blow account of how Major K.S Chandpuri (later Brigadier) leading just 100 men, had frustrated an attack by a Pakistani brigade backed by 45 tanks. Chandpuri got the Maha Vir Chakra, and his alpha company (23 Punjab) won six awards.
Bawa, then a wing commander, told Hindustan Times: If the Army wants to stem this rot, it has to act against officers responsible for this propaganda. Or else, you will have a series of ketchup colonels and fake encounters.
Shadow of doubt over Bawas Hunters flew some 220 strike missions, including 35 over Laungewala. They destroyed 37 tanks. He rubbished the Armys claims of hitting two tanks and killing three Pakistani officers.
The military leadership schemed to glorify the Armys role. I landed at Laungewala on December 5 and saw a handful of infantry soldiers hunkered down in their trenches, scared, Bawa said. The Army had made a mockery of gallantry awards.
When contacted for his version, Brig. Chandpuri heaped praise on the IAF. It was virtually due to them that Laungewala was saved and threat to Jaisalmer neutralised.
He, however, trashed criticism of the military leadership, crediting his generals for their unstinted support. He said his men didnt give in despite overwhelming odds. The government had honoured him with the MVC, and he needed no other certificate, Chandpuri said.
What exactly happened in Laungewala according to the Army?
While according highest importance to its accomplishments, the Army gives full marks to the Air Force too. But sources in Army Headquarters couldnt provide a chronological account of what happened. The history of the 1971 war, like that of previous wars, had not been de-classified, they said.
On December 3, 1971, Pakistan carried out air strikes against 24 Indian bases. Action shifted to Laungewala on the night of December 4-5, when the Armys 12 Division was planning an offensive into Rahimyar Khan in Pakistan.
However, the Pakistanis surprised Indian forces by crossing the border at three different points, (border posts 632, 635 and 638), and surrounding the Laungewala post by 2 am on December 5. According to the popular depiction of the story (shown in the film Border), a famous ground battle followed, with a small, heroic band of Indians holding off a massive wave of Pakistani armour.
The IAF at that time didnt have night fighting capabilities, and the first Hunters were scrambled only at 7.15 a.m., and the Pakistani armour was bombed out of existence. Ceasefire was announced on December 16.
An excerpt, accessed by this writer, dated December 5, from the war diaries of the Air Forces 14 CMU (care and maintenance unit) reads: Never in the history before, a more decisive battle has ever been fought between the Air Force alone versus the armour as was at Laungewala.
Colonel P.S. Sangha (retd), an army pilot who won the Vir Chakra, said the battle was an Air Force victory. Fighter pilots won eight Vir Chakras.
Colonel D.R. Singh (retd) of 17 Rajputana Rifles, who reached the post on December 5 to provide reinforcements to Chandpuri, corroborated Bawas claim that barely 20 men were at the post. The rest had run away. The role of 23 Punjab has been dramatically exaggerated, he said.
Chandpuri said the controversy had created an avoidable misunderstanding between the Army and Air Force. It has also demoralised soldiers and hurt their feelings.
Two days after Hindustan Times published the shocking revelation by Maj. Gen. Atma Singh (retd) that the Army faked the famous battle, an air ace who controlled the strikes that finished off the Pakistani armour has said the Army has hoodwinked the nation with false tales of valour.
Some other veterans of the 1971 war have also raised questions about this golden moment in Indias military history, romanticised by the 1997 Sunny Deol superhit, Border.
Air Marshal MS Bawa (retd), who was commanding the Jaisalmer base from where the IAF Hunter fighters operated in the battle, told Hindustan Times, The services were the only organisation with some credibility. The Army has torn that apart by faking the entire operation.
Atma Singh, who won the Vir Chakra for gallantry at Laungewala, had said no ground battle was fought, and the Army had merely rehearsed the operation on a sand model to cover up for its senior commanders incompetence.
The Army had, on February 24, given Defence Minister A.K. Antony a blow-by-blow account of how Major K.S Chandpuri (later Brigadier) leading just 100 men, had frustrated an attack by a Pakistani brigade backed by 45 tanks. Chandpuri got the Maha Vir Chakra, and his alpha company (23 Punjab) won six awards.
Bawa, then a wing commander, told Hindustan Times: If the Army wants to stem this rot, it has to act against officers responsible for this propaganda. Or else, you will have a series of ketchup colonels and fake encounters.
Shadow of doubt over Bawas Hunters flew some 220 strike missions, including 35 over Laungewala. They destroyed 37 tanks. He rubbished the Armys claims of hitting two tanks and killing three Pakistani officers.
The military leadership schemed to glorify the Armys role. I landed at Laungewala on December 5 and saw a handful of infantry soldiers hunkered down in their trenches, scared, Bawa said. The Army had made a mockery of gallantry awards.
When contacted for his version, Brig. Chandpuri heaped praise on the IAF. It was virtually due to them that Laungewala was saved and threat to Jaisalmer neutralised.
He, however, trashed criticism of the military leadership, crediting his generals for their unstinted support. He said his men didnt give in despite overwhelming odds. The government had honoured him with the MVC, and he needed no other certificate, Chandpuri said.
What exactly happened in Laungewala according to the Army?
While according highest importance to its accomplishments, the Army gives full marks to the Air Force too. But sources in Army Headquarters couldnt provide a chronological account of what happened. The history of the 1971 war, like that of previous wars, had not been de-classified, they said.
On December 3, 1971, Pakistan carried out air strikes against 24 Indian bases. Action shifted to Laungewala on the night of December 4-5, when the Armys 12 Division was planning an offensive into Rahimyar Khan in Pakistan.
However, the Pakistanis surprised Indian forces by crossing the border at three different points, (border posts 632, 635 and 638), and surrounding the Laungewala post by 2 am on December 5. According to the popular depiction of the story (shown in the film Border), a famous ground battle followed, with a small, heroic band of Indians holding off a massive wave of Pakistani armour.
The IAF at that time didnt have night fighting capabilities, and the first Hunters were scrambled only at 7.15 a.m., and the Pakistani armour was bombed out of existence. Ceasefire was announced on December 16.
An excerpt, accessed by this writer, dated December 5, from the war diaries of the Air Forces 14 CMU (care and maintenance unit) reads: Never in the history before, a more decisive battle has ever been fought between the Air Force alone versus the armour as was at Laungewala.
Colonel P.S. Sangha (retd), an army pilot who won the Vir Chakra, said the battle was an Air Force victory. Fighter pilots won eight Vir Chakras.
Colonel D.R. Singh (retd) of 17 Rajputana Rifles, who reached the post on December 5 to provide reinforcements to Chandpuri, corroborated Bawas claim that barely 20 men were at the post. The rest had run away. The role of 23 Punjab has been dramatically exaggerated, he said.
Chandpuri said the controversy had created an avoidable misunderstanding between the Army and Air Force. It has also demoralised soldiers and hurt their feelings.
Malang
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this is a surprise, Air Marshal Bawa and his elder brother (who was wing commander) are family friends (both live in Safdarjung Enclave, Delhi) .. I would trust his word...
su-47
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its a pity. the army gets all the credit while the airforce is shunned to the side.
if the pakistani divisions had crossed the border and reached longewala, and the post was almost abandoned, why didnt they take it, or continue forward? why did they wait there till the morning when IAF arrived?
if the pakistani divisions had crossed the border and reached longewala, and the post was almost abandoned, why didnt they take it, or continue forward? why did they wait there till the morning when IAF arrived?
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Pakistani tankers had the old habbit of not fighting at night time---the tanks used to be blind at night time---the commanding officers followed the second world war techniques into the 70's---they lagered the tanks and did basic maintenance at night---.
Secondly---a company strength of soldiers with some recoilless rifles in front of a battalion strength of tanks on the desert plains would last no more than 20 minutes to 1/2 an hour and that is too long---don't get me wrong---if there was an indian battalion strength facing a company strength of pakistanis on the desert plain, a capable indian tanker commanding the battalion---it would not have mattered much. A batalion strength of tanks is too much---even a company strength of tanks is too much to stop for an infantry company on plain / level battlefield.
Pakistani tankers had the old habbit of not fighting at night time---the tanks used to be blind at night time---the commanding officers followed the second world war techniques into the 70's---they lagered the tanks and did basic maintenance at night---.
Secondly---a company strength of soldiers with some recoilless rifles in front of a battalion strength of tanks on the desert plains would last no more than 20 minutes to 1/2 an hour and that is too long---don't get me wrong---if there was an indian battalion strength facing a company strength of pakistanis on the desert plain, a capable indian tanker commanding the battalion---it would not have mattered much. A batalion strength of tanks is too much---even a company strength of tanks is too much to stop for an infantry company on plain / level battlefield.
