India successfully testfires 'maneuverable' BrahMos supersonic cruise missile

[Haanzo]

If this is such a wonderful weapon, who won't Russians use it. mmmm

this is ot but if the same logic is applied elsewhere like WHY IS CHINA NOT INDUCTING THE JF-17 which u guys are so proud of ????? so stop speculating and start thinking there are thousands of moskits lying around in the russian inventory why the hell would they buy new missiles which offer them fractional advantage with a disadvantage in range but the same missile gives immense advantage to indian armed forces coz there is no equivalent for it in our armed forces ------ is not this the same scenario in jf-17s case

 

[Awesome]

This is how a missile sees a ship...

Each geometrical facet represent a unique radar reflection point on said ship. The missile does not see a 'square' or 'rectangle' or 'triangle' but voltage spikes and all these spikes are in a cluster against a background. The above image was created to give the readers a reference they can visually relate to a shape we know as a ship with all those radar reflection points highlighted.

Now onto chaff defense...

A ship in less than five seconds can launch enough chaff canisters to totally blanket a missile's radar view. The problem for the defense is WHEN to launch those canisters. The goal for the defense is to create that electronic blanket BEFORE the missile can create in its own electronic mind a composite image of a 'ship' based upon those unique radar reflection points. So again...The problem for the defense is WHEN to launch those canisters.

Once the missile created that composite image of a 'ship', chaff's efficacy as an electronic defense rapidly diminishes because the ship is moving too slow compared to the missile to avoid impact. It does not matter if by that time the missile's radar is blanked out. The missile already recorded a cluster of radar reflection points in an x-y-z coordinate and will head for that spatial location. It may miss or it may not but odds are better than %50 that it will impact the ship, possibly in an important area. The missile designer may incorporate some fancy algorithms based upon those radar reflection points to sort of guess what is the ship's most important structure and program the missile accordingly.

The best chaff defense against a radar guided missile is to create that electronic blanket BEFORE the missile successfully create that composite image. Chaff must be launched at the correct time lest they fall too soon, thereby exposing the ship at the worst time. On the other hand, chaff is cheap and does not take up much storage space. If the fleet or ship is sufficiently forewarned, it will take a lot of missiles to exhaust the ship's supply of chaff.

For flare defense against infrared sensor equipped missiles, the same tactic applies. The problem for IR sensor technology is that currently it is very difficult to create an IR sensor that is as capable of distinguishing distinct IR emitters as clear a radar emitters from the same body. This is a cost versus benefit issue and another point for discussion. Suffice to say that it is too costly to incorporate that level of IR sensor technology into a missile.

The Space Shuttle example below illustrate some IR emitting points...

Spaceflight Now | STS-119 Shuttle Report | Discovery's re-entry to collect hypersonic research

Nowhere as detailed as radar emitting points. This is why radar guidance remains the preferred method.


The readership would like some elaboration.


All cruise missiles does that to maximize their kinetic energy.

Good info. How about the scenario where the missile is not detected at all since its low flying? Or... fired upon a land based target which doesn't ever move, the spatial coordinates are fixed - you need to knock the CM out.

 

[jha]

SHAURYA is not said to be a cruise missile ..it is actually a hybrid one...

 

[4MothaChina]

this is ot but if the same logic is applied elsewhere like WHY IS CHINA NOT INDUCTING THE JF-17 which u guys are so proud of ????? so stop speculating and start thinking there are thousands of moskits lying around in the russian inventory why the hell would they buy new missiles which offer them fractional advantage with a disadvantage in range but the same missile gives immense advantage to indian armed forces coz there is no equivalent for it in our armed forces ------ is not this the same scenario in jf-17s case

china is inducting the Fc-1, it's just waiting for the indigenous engines to mature.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

The readership would like some elaboration.

I was referring to some of our friends who think that range is reduced to nearly half or reducing it considerably. One of my friend expressed that they take into account of the range that is used to maneuver . So that is of little importance. Am I right?

All cruise missiles does that to maximize their kinetic energy.

That is the point.

(don't exaggerate please)

This I was referring to some of Indian Friends who think it is the ultimate missile. This is a potent weapon but not as they put it. I just wanted to clarify them that's all.

 

[gambit]

Good info. How about the scenario where the missile is not detected at all since its low flying? Or... fired upon a land based target which doesn't ever move, the spatial coordinates are fixed - you need to knock the CM out.

There is a special problem associated with high speed of any aircraft and I mentioned it here...

The question is very important as there are two main crucial factors affecting the targeting system. Line-of-sight (LoS) rate change between missile and target and sensor capability.

LoS change and rate change can exceed sensor performance in terms of compensating for those changes.

Forward movement, the 'z' axis, does qualify as an LoS change and does have a rate change. The distance between target and sensor is decreasing. Maneuvers in the x-y axes complicate the re-targeting mechanisms. Regardless of altitude, the moment a cruise missile detect a target, if we freeze that moment for illustrative purposes, that moment is loosely called 'horizon break'. Both objects are within line-of-sight (LoS) of each other.

The most difficult problem for anti-ballistic missile defense is the high closing rate change between the descending warhead and the interceptor. Same for any head-on engagement between two closing objects. That would be the z-axis and this is dealing with distances in the tens and hundreds of km. Sensor and guidance technology, in some parts of the world, are strained to their limits even at the subsonic region in the z-axis.

frontline: missile wars: excerpts: why missile defense won't work | PBS

During a typical intercept attempt, the closing speed between the kill vehicle and targets is around 10 kilometers per second. If targets can be detected from a distance of 600 kilometers, that doesn't leave much time -- a minute or less -- to distinguish between warheads and decoys and maneuver to ram into the right target.

Any time there is an LoS rate change, the higher those rate changes, the greater the need for sensor and guidance technology and how creative are the designers in compensating for those changes. For example...

AIM-7 Sparrow

Missile-to-target closing speed is derived by a comparison of the signals (doppler shift) received by the front antenna and the rear reference antenna.

So we have in this instance, Doppler shifts are exploited through creative use of multiple antennas in different physical locations. Their results are compared and the missile compensate accordingly. Closing speed, aka z-axis LoS rate change, are already very problematic for missile designers. Now add in x-y LoS rate changes that could take the target outside of the missile's sensor physical scan limits. For a cruise missile, the lower its flight altitude the shorter its sensor effective distance, hence the less time it has to compensate for any LoS rate change in any axis at 'horizon break'.

If the cruise missile is not detected by the target via its below the radar horizon flight altitude, then the target has very little chance of avoiding the impact. In this situation, supersonic speed is unnecessary. If we use this radar horizon calculator...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

...And insert altitudes of 10 meters for missile and ship, we have a visual horizon distance of less than 23 km. At subsonic closing speed for 23 km, a ship or a fixed land target has no chance of evasion. Supersonic closing velocity can create more problems than benefits at terrain mapping required altitudes, where cruise missiles usually operate. Against descending ballistic warheads, we have no control over the situation. We have to deal with the supersonic closing speed. A miss at supersonic closing velocity and the interceptor missile is wasted. But against targets that are fixed or relatively fixed like ships, why would we want to complicate the situation by creating the supersonic closing speed when the 'horizon break' distance is 30 km or less?

This is why I question the entire deployment and operational philosophy of the Brahmos. A rationale is not available. This is too much of an investment to be taken lightly.

 

[paritosh]

If this is such a wonderful weapon, who won't Russians use it. mmmm

I think they have better weapons and refuse to use Brahmos. What is the missile that is of longer ranged and lighter? The problem with Brahmos is its weight and size. Its too heavy that each plane can only carry one? Can MKI carry 2?

The Russian military already have something better. I'm certain. I just don't have the name of the missile that has similar ability as Brahmos but longer range

I have never heard of a plane being able to carry more than one cruise missile...correct me if I am wrong.
as far as Brahmos is concerned....it has as many Indian systems aboard as it has russian...it's not like the JF-17 co-developed project...
everything from it's body to it's flight control systems are fresh.

 

[abdul1]

please get an idea of russian procurement plan which has a clause inhibiting certain induction ....
hope it will answer

I think you are refereeing to this:

Admiral Gorshkov Class Frigates - Naval Technology

 

[saurabh]

If the cruise missile is not detected by the target via its below the radar horizon flight altitude, then the target has very little chance of avoiding the impact. In this situation, supersonic speed is unnecessary. If we use this radar horizon calculator...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

...And insert altitudes of 10 meters for missile and ship, we have a visual horizon distance of less than 23 km. At subsonic closing speed for 23 km, a ship or a fixed land target has no chance of evasion. Supersonic closing velocity can create more problems than benefits at terrain mapping required altitudes, where cruise missiles usually operate.

What problems with terrain mapping any cruise missile could face, at sea. Would not the "terrain" be almost flat?

 

[RPK]

The Hindu : Opinion / Editorials : Bravo BrahMos


The successful flight of the BrahMos missile on March 21 spotlights India's status as a world leader in launching supersonic cruise missiles vertically from moving warships and manoeuvring the missiles at the supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach. Launching a missile in an inclined mode is relatively easy. But lifting off vertically from a rolling and pitching vessel, climbing, turning and cruising horizontally, performing manoeuvres, and precisely hitting the target is technologically a big task. Astonishingly, BrahMos performed its intricate manoeuvres at 2.8 Mach, with its propulsion fully switched on during the whole course of its flight. (Normally, when a missile performs manoeuvres, its engines will not operate.) Another highlight was the advanced indigenous software for way point manoeuvring that enables the low-flying missile to hit a target vessel taking shelter, for instance, behind a rocky island. This was the 22nd launch of BrahMos, a joint venture product of the Defence Research and Development Organisation of India and NPO Mashinostroyenia, a space-missile enterprise of the Russian Federation. BrahMos is a versatile, two-stage missile that is nine metres long and weighs 3.9 tonnes with the canister. It has a range of 290 km. It can carry only non-nuclear warheads. With a flight record demonstrating a high degree of reliability, it has already been inducted into the Navy and the Army. India has ship-to-ship, ship-to-land, land-to-land, and land-to-ship versions of BrahMos.

Nobody in their right mind wants lethal missiles fired to kill, destroy, and inflict damage on civilian targets. Since the BrahMos missile is all about enhancing defence capability, a vertical launch from a ship has several advantages. First, it ensures the vessel's safety because the missile is pushed out vertically and its booster engine is fired in the air, allowing the ship to move away. Secondly, the missile in vertical launch can take on a target lying anywhere in a 360-degree range. Whatever the ship's orientation, the missile can turn in any direction to pursue the target. Thirdly, the vertical placement enables accommodation of more missiles in less space in a warship's cramped environs. The missiles are concealed inside the ship, providing them with long and safe storage and protection against corrosion. With India declaring that it would not use nuclear weapons first against another country, BrahMos becomes a formidable and highly cost-effective defence because it can hit any attacker with speed, power, and precision. Given its fast reaction — it takes off in four minutes from the time the command is given from launch headquarters — the missile has virtually no equal in a hypothetical conventional battlefield. BrahMos is a state-of-the-art demonstration of the great advantages of Indo-Soviet, and now Indo-Russian, defence cooperation.

 

[manish123]

The Hindu : Opinion / Editorials : Bravo BrahMos


The successful flight of the BrahMos missile on March 21 spotlights India's status as a world leader in launching supersonic cruise missiles vertically from moving warships and manoeuvring the missiles at the supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach. Launching a missile in an inclined mode is relatively easy. But lifting off vertically from a rolling and pitching vessel, climbing, turning and cruising horizontally, performing manoeuvres, and precisely hitting the target is technologically a big task. Astonishingly, BrahMos performed its intricate manoeuvres at 2.8 Mach, with its propulsion fully switched on during the whole course of its flight. (Normally, when a missile performs manoeuvres, its engines will not operate.) Another highlight was the advanced indigenous software for way point manoeuvring that enables the low-flying missile to hit a target vessel taking shelter, for instance, behind a rocky island. This was the 22nd launch of BrahMos, a joint venture product of the Defence Research and Development Organisation of India and NPO Mashinostroyenia, a space-missile enterprise of the Russian Federation. BrahMos is a versatile, two-stage missile that is nine metres long and weighs 3.9 tonnes with the canister. It has a range of 290 km. It can carry only non-nuclear warheads. With a flight record demonstrating a high degree of reliability, it has already been inducted into the Navy and the Army. India has ship-to-ship, ship-to-land, land-to-land, and land-to-ship versions of BrahMos.

Nobody in their right mind wants lethal missiles fired to kill, destroy, and inflict damage on civilian targets. Since the BrahMos missile is all about enhancing defence capability, a vertical launch from a ship has several advantages. First, it ensures the vessel's safety because the missile is pushed out vertically and its booster engine is fired in the air, allowing the ship to move away. Secondly, the missile in vertical launch can take on a target lying anywhere in a 360-degree range. Whatever the ship's orientation, the missile can turn in any direction to pursue the target. Thirdly, the vertical placement enables accommodation of more missiles in less space in a warship's cramped environs. The missiles are concealed inside the ship, providing them with long and safe storage and protection against corrosion. With India declaring that it would not use nuclear weapons first against another country, BrahMos becomes a formidable and highly cost-effective defence because it can hit any attacker with speed, power, and precision. Given its fast reaction — it takes off in four minutes from the time the command is given from launch headquarters — the missile has virtually no equal in a hypothetical conventional battlefield. BrahMos is a state-of-the-art demonstration of the great advantages of Indo-Soviet, and now Indo-Russian, defence cooperation.

Brahmos range is not 300 kms. anybody with sense of size and aerodynamics knows this. it should be around 500 Kms.Secondly russia is using the brahmos.They are too proud to say this.Yakohant never went through any flight tests before the J.V, but since the indo-russian j.v the Yakohant suddenly put on weight and the dimensions were similar to brahmos. India is paying for their yakohant bcause the cost of brahmos is outrageous.It makes sense only when u consider that russia brough the the original engine technology and expertize.India has gained from it not only with brahmos and shaurya but also Nirbhay, let it come out, it will be better than brahmos and cheap and will be mass produced similar to Tomahawk cruise missile only in nos. but technologically far advanced.

 

[ambidex]

Brahmos range is not 300 kms. anybody with sense of size and aerodynamics knows this. it should be around 500 Kms.Secondly russia is using the brahmos.They are too proud to say this.Yakohant never went through any flight tests before the J.V, but since the indo-russian j.v the Yakohant suddenly put on weight and the dimensions were similar to brahmos. India is paying for their yakohant bcause the cost of brahmos is outrageous.It makes sense only when u consider that russia brough the the original engine technology and expertize.India has gained from it not only with brahmos and shaurya but also Nirbhay, let it come out, it will be better than brahmos and cheap and will be mass produced similar to Tomahawk cruise missile only in nos. but technologically far advanced.

Please explain its extended range/you further with some technical or numerical equations if you can not provide us a link suggesting what your are claiming. My sense of aerodynamics is telling me! that hypersonic speeds burn more and exhaust fast.
Regards

 

[manish123]

Please explain its extended range/you further with some technical or numerical equations if you can not provide us a link suggesting what your are claiming. My sense of aerodynamics is telling me! that hypersonic speeds burn more and exhaust fast.
Regards

Sorry chum ,I have no links I study yakhont and apply it to Brahmos, suggest u keep pace with International developments and use google more. Just my 2 cents, ignore it if u want.

 

[lhuang]

Brahmos range is not 300 kms. anybody with sense of size and aerodynamics knows this. it should be around 500 Kms.Secondly russia is using the brahmos.They are too proud to say this.Yakohant never went through any flight tests before the J.V, but since the indo-russian j.v the Yakohant suddenly put on weight and the dimensions were similar to brahmos. India is paying for their yakohant bcause the cost of brahmos is outrageous.It makes sense only when u consider that russia brough the the original engine technology and expertize.India has gained from it not only with brahmos and shaurya but also Nirbhay, let it come out, it will be better than brahmos and cheap and will be mass produced similar to Tomahawk cruise missile only in nos. but technologically far advanced.

A lot of speculation, not much substance.

 

[gambit]

What problems with terrain mapping any cruise missile could face, at sea. Would not the "terrain" be almost flat?

Sea surface, even offshore, is not 'flat' as most people would like to believe.

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Douglas Sea Scale is a scale which measures the height of the waves and also measures the swell of the sea.

Water have different radar return properties than land. Very similar to vegetation. Water can produce an echo that can mislead the radar into believing the surface is at a certain altitude when the echo is actually produced by a temperature layer UNDER the surface. Submariners knows these layers quite well and how sonar can be unreliable with their effects. Radar altimeters can be victim to high sea state.

One example for the layman...

Radar altimeter - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

...may pick up a secondary reflection (i.e., multipath effect) of the signal, ...

Radar altimeters also can become confused by wave motion, when flying over rough water at low level.

On the terrain following (TF) on the F-111, I can and have tuned one of the two TF antennas sensitive enough to pickup surface swells of less than one meter over the English Channel. Made for a very bumply flight that night for us. At low altitude, a cruise missile's radar altimeter must be sophisticated enough to filter out these surface swells but must still be able to distinguish the real surface return from the ones produced by multipath propagations. A poorly designed avionics system can send the cruise missile into the water in high sea states.