In border row, Pakistan shows US vulnerability

[fatman17]

In border row, Pakistan shows US vulnerability

* Former US state dept official says Pakistan played its ‘trump card’
* US think tank director fears political repercussions from ‘border violence’

WASHINGTON: The United States and Pakistan have never had an easy partnership, but despite heated feuds on everything from drone attacks to terror plots, the two governments have found a way to work together.

Now, Pakistan has played what some experts consider the ultimate trump card - closing its main border crossing with Afghanistan to US-led forces who depend on the route for oil, ammunition and other war supplies.

Islamabad took action after accusing NATO helicopters of killing three Pakistani soldiers on their own territory, a stark reminder of Pakistan’s sovereignty concerns as it cooperates with the US. Gunmen torched more than two dozen NATO supply trucks Friday in southern Pakistan.

Former US State Department official Marvin Weinbaum said Pakistan felt obliged to act tough at a time when the civilian government is under growing pressure, including from the powerful military, after its response to major floods.

“They have to show their trump card because it’s for domestic political reasons, especially with a weak government. But it is serious and it points out our vulnerability,” said Weinbaum, a scholar-in-residence at the Middle East Institute.

A prolonged closure of the border would mark “a fundamental change in our relationship with Pakistan. For the US, Pakistan can be reluctant to do this or reluctant to do that, and that is all ultimately tolerable as long as the supply routes remain largely open and protected,” he added.

Repercussions: But Shuja Nawaz, director of the South Asia Center at the Atlantic Council think-tank, feared political repercussions from the border violence. He faulted NATO for initially saying it acted in self-defense.

Such incidents “feed the paranoia inside Pakistan’s military and civil establishments that perhaps there is some sort of master plan to take advantage and cross the border at will,” Nawaz said.

“There is a very strong possibility that it could get out of hand,” he added.

Richard Holbrooke, the veteran diplomat who serves as US pointman on Pakistan and Afghanistan, said ties with Pakistan were “more complicated than any strategic relationship I’ve ever been involved in.”

“But at the end of the day, success in Afghanistan - however you define success - is not achievable unless Pakistan is part of the solution, not part of the problem,” he told a forum in Washington.

Fundamentally, Pakistan’s chief objective is to limit the influence of rival India in Afghanistan, US National War College associate professor Bernard Finel said.

But without Pakistani cooperation, the US would have to scale back any goals of nation-building in Afghanistan and adopt a lighter footprint, Finel said. afp

 

[third eye]

If the shove ever came to a push, the ultimate loser would be Pak. GOP has someday to stop running with hare & hunting with the hound. As I heard Imran Khan saying, here is a Govt that gets its own ppl killed and gets paid for it.

Even after the strike that bought a reaction there has been another strike. With most of the national economy running on the aid sent by US how long can can this belligerence last ?

As things stand , all Govts in Pak in the recent past have survived only coz US wanted them to. Chinese will help but only in supplying hardware & in infrastructure. They will not fund the national budget simply coz their ends are being met without having to do so.

There is another dimension, where this shut down has come under pressure from the PA whose long term aim could be to discredit the current Govt seeking to place itself ( read Mush) either thru a mid term poll or the routine method of Govt change in Pak - thru a coup.

 

[Omar1984]

With most of the national economy running on the aid sent by US

Typical indian rant.

Pakistan's economy does not run on American aid. Most Pakistanis dont even benefit from American aid, only Zardari sahab does.

Pakistan has made enough sacrafices in this war OF terror and its time to end this senseless war where our Pakistani people are suffering the most.

None of the 9/11 hijackers were Pakistani most of them were Saudis. Ever since war OF terror (and especially after obama became president of the US) Pakistanis are suffering the most and Saudis are living large in their palaces.


NATO supplies comes from Pakistan and Pakistan is not going to just let the supplies go through after NATO killed 3 PAKISTANI troops. An attack on a nation's troops is an attack on the entire nation.

Every nation's government says their citizens and their troops are the most valuable, its time Pakistan's government thinks the same way about their people and their troops.

 

[Donatello]

If the shove ever came to a push, the ultimate loser would be Pak. GOP has someday to stop running with hare & hunting with the hound. As I heard Imran Khan saying, here is a Govt that gets its own ppl killed and gets paid for it.

Even after the strike that bought a reaction there has been another strike. With most of the national economy running on the aid sent by US how long can can this belligerence last ?

As things stand , all Govts in Pak in the recent past have survived only coz US wanted them to. Chinese will help but only in supplying hardware & in infrastructure. They will not fund the national budget simply coz their ends are being met without having to do so.

There is another dimension, where this shut down has come under pressure from the PA whose long term aim could be to discredit the current Govt seeking to place itself ( read Mush) either thru a mid term poll or the routine method of Govt change in Pak - thru a coup.

Don't poke in your nose where you have no idea of what you are talking about.


This is Pakistan-US relations, dating way back to 1980s.

When Hillary Clinton came to Pakistan, she was shown around. Then she was taken to some universities/colleges where students would ask her questions. She had no clue to what was coming at her, from the educated, elite. The same people that you Indians refer to as who form Elitist economy in Pakistan and wouldn't talk anything against US. Apparently they did, and Clinton left for Obama's white house with a lot more than expected.



Keep this thing in mind, that Drones from CIA are flown from Pakistani airbases. Not only that but heavy armed fighters have flown from Pakistani airbases in the past, prior and after to Sept 11. Pakistan has given US more than it could ever have. Remember Gary powers U2? Took off from Peshawar.

Now how the **** does an Apache not know who is the enemy and who is not. Pakistan closes the border for a month, we will see who is at odds.

You think Europe is going to step in? They are more than ready to pull their support out like tomorrow if they could.


as i said, don't start talking shyt unless you know about it. Which in case of Pak-US relations, you wouldn't know about and how it affects the lives of 99.9999% of the Pakistanis on a daily basis.

 

[NWO]

Pakistan has made enough sacrafices in this war OF terror and its time to end this senseless war where our Pakistani people are suffering the most.

You mean second. Afghan people have first place, unfortunately.

 

[Kinetic]

Typical indian rant.

Pakistan's economy does not run on American aid. Most Pakistanis dont even benefit from American aid, only Zardari sahab does.

US is giving aid much before Zardari came into power.

Pakistan has made enough sacrafices in this war OF terror and its time to end this senseless war where our Pakistani people are suffering the most.

Pakistan army is fighting inside its territory.

None of the 9/11 hijackers were Pakistani most of them were Saudis. Ever since war OF terror (and especially after obama became president of the US) Pakistanis are suffering the most and Saudis are living large in their palaces.

But the roots were different specially OBL and Taliban.

NATO supplies comes from Pakistan and Pakistan is not going to just let the supplies go through after NATO killed 3 PAKISTANI troops. An attack on a nation's troops is an attack on the entire nation.

Not from Pakistan but through Pakistan. NATO killed many civilians as well. NATO attacks are increasing every year. Pakistan should have stopped this much earlier.

 

[sasuke]

Pakistan's economy does not run on American aid. Most Pakistanis dont even benefit from American aid, only Zardari sahab does.

You should look at the Balance of Payments of your Govt and the debt obligations it has. Without IMF and US aid, Pak Govt would have defaulted long back. If you know about how the economics work, you would understand.

remember greece debt crisis? If you can understand that, Pakistan case is worse than that, in terms of financial matters like how India got screwed up in 1990's and was forced to revolutionize the regulatory framework.

Coming back to topic.

It's good that US has vulnerability. Pakistan should leverage it. May be they can work together, so that when militants cross the border, the Pakistan army can hunt them. With forces on two sides, the Taliban would get their a** kicked

 

[Abu Basit]

Even after the strike that bought a reaction there has been another strike. With most of the national economy running on the aid sent by US how long can can this belligerence last ?

We the common Pakistanis really want the so called US aid to stop, Plz America give us this favor... I mean what benefit do we get from this aid as it always ends in ruling elite pockets.

 

[Omar1984]

US is giving aid much before Zardari came into power.

U.S. gives a lot of countries aid, it doesn't mean they have the right to attack the countries they give aid to. Pakistan was placed under sanctions by the US before 9/11 and Pakistan was doing just fine then. some indian said in this thread that Pakistan's economy runs on American aid which is a false statement.

Pakistan army is fighting inside its territory.

Pakistan is fighting TTP and TTP was just formed in these past few years. There was no TTP before 2007.

But the roots were different specially OBL and Taliban.

Taliban was not even involved in the 9/11 attacks. Americans blame OBL and Al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks. OBL is no where to be found and Al Qadea today is in its weakest state. The original Afghan Taliban just want the invaders out of their country, they had nothing to do with 9/11.

Not from Pakistan but through Pakistan. NATO killed many civilians as well. NATO attacks are increasing every year. Pakistan should have stopped this much earlier.

Thats the corrupt government. The common Pakistani wants the NATO out of their country's territory.

 

[Kinetic]

U.S. gives a lot of countries aid, it doesn't mean they have the right to attack the countries they give aid to. Pakistan was placed under sanctions by the US before 9/11 and Pakistan was doing just fine then. some indian said in this thread that Pakistan's economy runs on American aid which is a false statement.

US gives aid for certain reasons whether its Pakistan or any other country. US is giving aid to Pakistan after they started WoT to help Pakistan to fight against terrorists. These 'helps' also includes US's rush and gain popularity during recent floods. Don't know whether Pakistan's economy runs on US aid but it certainly helped. I think Pakistan also gets some other trade benefits EU, USA etc. But not sure.

Pakistan is fighting TTP and TTP was just formed in these past few years. There was no TTP before 2007.

With WoT also there would have been TTP. Also Pakistan is fighting with terrorists way before TTP.

Taliban was not even involved in the 9/11 attacks. Americans blame OBL and Al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks. OBL is no where to be found and Al Qadea today is in its weakest state. The original Afghan Taliban just want the invaders out of their country, they had nothing to do with 9/11.

Americans/NATO say that OBL, AQ or Taliban are spread over Afghanistan and Pakistan and they are threat to the west. There is nothing called original Taliban and all Talibans are terrorists. If anyone differentiate than he have to face problems.

Thats the corrupt government. The common Pakistani wants the NATO out of their country's territory.

But PA is also supportive of WoT from days back to Musharraf to current Kiyani, all of them are close to USA. So its not just Zardari govt.

Above all at this moment Pakistan cannot take out itself of WoT by stopping NATO supplies to Afghanistan. It will only create more problems.

 

[kingdurgaking]

We the common Pakistanis really want the so called US aid to stop, Plz America give us this favor... I mean what benefit do we get from this aid as it always ends in ruling elite pockets.

If you stop here Pakistan economy will toss up in the air.. It will take several decades to heal the wounds.. If war is not fought then there will be chaos.. huge apprising, pakistan has to strike deal with talibs etc etc.... situation is more worst than what you predict

 

[third eye]

U.S. gives a lot of countries aid, it doesn't mean they have the right to attack the countries they give aid to. Pakistan was placed under sanctions by the US before 9/11 and Pakistan was doing just fine then. some indian said in this thread that Pakistan's economy runs on American aid which is a false statement.

Pls check the video in the 1st post of the thread below and HEAR what the anchor says at 1.58 or thereabouts.

Also , this has been thanked by Pak members !!

...and 'some' Indian is only repeating what pak news anchors are saying on Pak national TV.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/75066-pakistani-leadership-besharam-hai-imran-khan.html

 

[Zee-Gen]

the ultimate loser would be Pak.

Just one line…….death itself is an ultimate loss and US is already dying us.

Without IMF and US aid, Pak Govt. would have defaulted long back. If you know about how the economics work, you would understand.

Hmmmmm so you are a man of economy………..then you must also be aware of the fact that no one gives anyone money just for nothing……..IMF gives us money, we pay them back with interest……US gives us money, in return we provide our “services” to them……..so, technically its trade, not aid……….if they don’t want to give us money then we also don’t want to give our “services”……fair trade.

 

[third eye]

Just one line…….death itself is an ultimate loss and US is already dying us.



Hmmmmm so you are a man of economy………..then you must also be aware of the fact that no one gives anyone money just for nothing……..IMF gives us money, we pay them back with interest……US gives us money, in return we provide our “services” to them……..so, technically its trade, not aid……….if they don’t want to give us money then we also don’t want to give our “services”……fair trade.

So simply put..

What ' services' are we talking of here ?

Allowing ur own citizens to be killed and accepting money for the same is services !!!

Good luck.

 

[Developereo]

What the Pakistanis are saying and the Indians refuse to listen is that the American 'aid' is not aid to Pakistan, but bribes to politicians.

If we replace the corrupt politicians with honest leaders who fix the tax system, there will be no need for American 'aid'.

But as long as we have the current lineup then, yes, we are utterly dependent on American 'aid'.