I am proud of the Kargil operation: Musharraf

[surya kiran]

I'm sorry I don't follow you - Are you seriously arguing that we should've been honest & upright when conducting a covert operation ? That we should've done the right thing & said 'Yup they're our boys alright' as opposed to using deception & misleading statements to our advantage ?

What naivete is this ?

I saw a nice program on the Kargil operation and what a military guy (some brigadier I think) said a beautiful quote. He said, "Instead of appreciating the situation we situationalised appreciation and that is what was the biggest blunder of Kargil. We did not think through the repercussions of the operation."

 

[ares]

When is a war worth it? To some, never, to others when the opportunity avails itself.
Siachen action by the IA in 84 was unprecedented as nothing like it had happened since the 1971 conflict. They chose the time and place and took action. We simply did the same in 1999. Lastly, there is never a good time for conflict. It happens as and when issues/opportunities come up to gain a more favourable position. Kargil is linked with the overall Kashmir situation and unless there is a drastic change in the overall relations with regards to Kashmir, in the future the Indians or us could continue to take actions.

It is surprising how people in Pakistan don't know this fact.

Operation Meghdoot was actually a preemptive operation. Pakistan had already made up it mind to capture Siachen, full scale preparations were under way. Which is quite apparent as Pakistani army arrived in Siachen just ten days after Indian army did.( planning and preparation for such an operation takes months)

It was a reliable tip off from Pakistan army's 'arctic clothing' supply company, which alerted Indian army to Pakistan army's intentions...and Indian proceeded with airlifting it soldiers to Sianchen.

Plus huge difference b/w Siachen and Kargil ..and the reason why Pakistan received massive international condemnation for Kargil, while International community ignored Siachen was..

Siachen was an unmarked territory , while Kargil was firmly on Indian side LOC.
Kargil operation violated Shimla agreement signed by Pakistan, where as Siachen operation violated no treaty.

 

[illusion8]

So what exactly is Musharraf proud of?? it totally is absurd, any other country any other time - such a General would be court martialed. Get's into a major war for no rhyme or reason when the Government is into peace dialogues with the same party, Get's into a war for his own whim and fancy without taking into confidence other generals, the government, other wings of the defense forces. Is he proud that he came 11 kms into Indian territory and slept there overnight? - did he do that during wartime - NO - he did that when they were undetected yet - so what exactly is he proud of?

 

[janon]

I'm sorry I don't follow you - Are you seriously arguing that we should've been honest & upright when conducting a covert operation ? That we should've done the right thing & said 'Yup they're our boys alright' as opposed to using deception & misleading statements to our advantage ?

What naivete is this ?

Dude, look at the first four words of my post that you responded to.

AFTER the lid was blown from your "covert" operation, AFTER the war began, shouldn't Pakistan have acknowledged it?

They could have infiltrated covertly (which they did), but once they were detected, and once India counter attacked, once dead bodies were piling up (for both nations), was there any point to keep disowning your forces?

 

[Armstrong]

See; even if it was covert, the cover(?) had already been blown. Even the NLI soldiers were in mufti not in uniform. Please look at the body of the Captain which was returned by the IA with a Citatation written by the CO of the IA unit opposing him (for his bravery, and he was later awarded accordingly-was it the Nishan-E-Haider); the body is in a blue track suit. The NLI was being passed off as Militants as a subterfuge and were instructed to remain in mufti. Can a Professional Army do that to its Soldiers?
The very basis of an Army's (and its soldiers) existence is "Izzat-O-Iqbal" of the "Paltan" and of its lowest "Sipahi/Jawan".
One can't mess around with that!

I'm sorry I don't quite follow, are you suggesting that somehow its beneath a Professional Army to use deception as a means of attaining advantage; when that advantage was lost we stopped perpetuating the Mujahideen narrative, accepted the bodies & even gave medals after the cessation of hostilities.

If you think that somehow the Paltan's Izzat or Abrouu down to the lowest rank has been injured then I dunno whether you've met anyone from the NLI or ever heard one of the fallen soldier's families talking about it.

Or do you think that the Pakistan Army sent in their boys without any prior briefing on hows things are going to pan out ?

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Retard get this through your head, Kargil is controlled mostly by Pakistan as of today, only a few peaks are occupied by Indian army, all the critical ones including highest point is held by Pakistani army. Your Indian version of history says "all Pak intruders were evicted" that is far from the reality.

Try to understand instead of posting same idiotic lies over and over again about Pakistan losing in Kargil, when the reality is Pakistan won key positions in Kargil.

that is a very big statement you are making ,if this is true then, can you back it up with adequate sources,proofs that kargil is controlled by Pakistan as of today ? , if so what is the size of that particular area in sq mi which which as per your claim is currently under Pakistani control, specially its location,maps etc
please provide an authentic source of your claim

also can some senior's , MOD'S, think tank on this forum shed some light on this

@Oscar sir is this true ? as a knowledgeable person here could you please verify this

 

[Capt.Popeye]

What about '99 appeared like an opportunity to conduct something like this ?

1999 was the wrong time for sure. The American Sanctions had nearly crippled the PAF. The PN as usual was the step-child and not have fended off a blockade. That was critical since Pakistan had less than a week's worth of POL when the IN mobilised under Op Talwar. The PAF and PN were grudgingly let into the plan after it had been set into motion and after the Indian response was triggered. The Pakistani FO had no clue about it and hence had no coherent response when International Opinion came down like a ton of bricks. Though the controversy has not been fully resolved yet; even the PM of Pakistan did not know what exactly was going on in Kargil; therefore it follows that even the Pakistan Parliament was kept out of the loop.
So who was running Pakistan then? Who was taking momentous decisions that affected Pakistan; like initiating a conflict with a Neighbor, a nuclear armed Neighbor at that?
Only 4 Generals could take a country to war? Some Child's play that, hunh.............

 

[EyelessInGaza]

I'm sorry I don't follow you - Are you seriously arguing that we should've been honest & upright when conducting a covert operation ? That we should've done the right thing & said 'Yup they're our boys alright' as opposed to using deception & misleading statements to our advantage ?

What naivete is this ?

I'm sorry I don't quite follow, are you suggesting that somehow its beneath a Professional Army to use deception as a means of attaining advantage; when that advantage was lost we stopped perpetuating the Mujahideen narrative, accepted the bodies & even gave medals after the cessation of hostilities.

If you think that somehow the Paltan's Izzat or Abrouu down to the lowest rank has been injured then I dunno whether you've met anyone from the NLI or ever heard one of the fallen soldier's families talking about it.
....

There are covert operations by armies that capitalize on an unsuspecting or an unprepared enemy.

Large scale operations where the armed force participants do not even wear their uniforms - i.e. they go in mufti- cross a definite line. One can call them covert operations but they are in my opinion no better than terrorist activity that reflect badly on the honour of that force.

 

[Armstrong]

Dude, look at the first four words of my post that you responded to.

AFTER the lid was blown from your "covert" operation, AFTER the war began, shouldn't Pakistan have acknowledged it?

They could have infiltrated covertly (which they did), but once they were detected, and once India counter attacked, once dead bodies were piling up (for both nations), was there any point to keep disowning your forces?

When exactly was the lid blown ? For all intents & purposes it was the Mujahideen vs the Indian Army & only after we recognized that that narrative was unsustainable did we stop perpetuating it & finally recognized the men as our own !

The notion of disowning them exists only in your mind's eye - Not the NLI ! Do you think they weren't briefed for the role they were playing...that they weren't conditioned into their roles ?

 

[janon]

I'm sorry I don't quite follow, are you suggesting that somehow its beneath a Professional Army to use deception as a means of attaining advantage; when that advantage was lost we stopped perpetuating the Mujahideen narrative, accepted the bodies & even gave medals after the cessation of hostilities.
If you think that somehow the Paltan's Izzat or Abrouu down to the lowest rank has been injured then I dunno whether you've met anyone from the NLI or ever heard one of the fallen soldier's families talking about it.

Or do you think that the Pakistan Army sent in their boys without any prior briefing on hows things are going to pan out ?

No, Pakistan didn't, that is what the whole brouhaha is about.

First of all, pretending that armymen are rogue mujahideen "non state actors" is not really going to help militarily, is it? Whether they are armymen or mujahideen, India would use the same tactics to evict/kill them. Besides, that's not even a charade that could be kept up for long, to give any political or diplomatic benefits on the world stage. What military value did that ATTEMPTED deception have, other than demoralizing your own soldiers? Its not like insisting that they are mujahideen made any difference to the Indian army's tactics.

The names of the dead soldiers was put up on ISPR's website in 2008.

Also, to answer your first few words....of course, armies use deception to gain a tactical advantage over their enemy. But when an army uses deception and surprise against its own air force, navy and civilian leadership to start a war, that ain't deception anymore, there is something criminally wrong. The PAF and PN heard about the war after it started. It was musharaff's war, planned by him and three others in secrecy (so secret that the air and naval chiefs did not know about it). Now THAT is not cunning deception, it is foolishness.

 

[blain2]

Yes, that is absolutely true. And for the sake of argument, let me agree that there is no such thing as "right time". (Although I would think, being in a stronger position is a better time than when one is in a weaker position WRZT the enemy.)

But was it the right WAY? Is there any way that Pakistan could have gained anything from that military misadventure? Could pak really have taken Kashmir from India, or even large chunks of it, by that particular campaign? Was mushy expecting that India would not retaliate with full force to evict the intruders? In what scenario could the kargil intrusion have been a military success? A scenario which did not depend on underestimating India's willingness to fight to keep her territory?

Its debatable. I would draw some parallels with Indian Army's operation in 62. Was the IA and the GoI not expecting a Chinese reaction? Certain calculations and suppositions were made and they did not hold true. I would say the same applies here.

 

[Armstrong]

There are covert operations by armies that capitalize on an unsuspecting or an unprepared enemy.

Large scale operations where the armed force participants do not even wear their uniforms - i.e. they go in mufti- cross a definite line. One can call them covert operations but they are in my opinion no better than terrorist activity that reflect badly on the honour of that force.

Your opinion is duly noted, however, a piece of cloth doesn't take away from them anything ! I suppose a khaki clad terrorist in some African state would be acting very soldierly when doing the same.

 

[Argus Panoptes]

Its debatable. I would draw some parallels with Indian Army's operation in 62. Was the IA and the GoI not expecting a Chinese reaction? Certain calculations and suppositions were made and they did not hold true. I would say the same applies here.

Sir, the 1962 war was a disaster for India because they made the wrong calculations and suppositions. Are you drawing the same parallel for Kargil? Please clarify.

 

[blain2]

It is surprising how people in Pakistan don't know this fact.

Operation Meghdoot was actually a preemptive operation. Pakistan had already made up it mind to capture Siachen, full scale preparations were under way. Which is quite apparent as Pakistani army arrived in Siachen just ten days after Indian army did.( planning and preparation for such an operation takes months)

It was a reliable tip off from Pakistan army's 'arctic clothing' supply company, which alerted Indian army to Pakistan army's intentions...and Indian proceeded with airlifting it soldiers to Sianchen.

Plus huge difference b/w Siachen and Kargil ..and the reason why Pakistan received massive international condemnation for Kargil, while International community ignored Siachen was..

Siachen was an unmarked territory , while Kargil was firmly on Indian side LOC.
Kargil operation violated Shimla agreement signed by Pakistan, where as Siachen operation violated no treaty.

Siachen and Kargil sit across the very same LoC. Lets not create any confusion about that. Kargil was with Pakistan in 48 and in 65. It was taken over in 1971 by the IA and not returned so lets not talk about firmly this or that.

If Kargil operation violated Shimla agreement, so did Siachen. No changing of contours of the LOC through force applied in 1984 just as it did in 1999. You folks broke the rule first!

 

[danger007]

Its debatable. I would draw some parallels with Indian Army's operation in 62. Was the IA and the GoI not expecting a Chinese reaction? Certain calculations and suppositions were made and they did not hold true. I would say the same applies here.

1962 war is due to NEHRU forward policy.... which fought directly... and kargil is not like that..... PA occupied emptied IA posts without any fighting... but fought to keep them....