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Hindu rewriting of history texts

How about the genocides by Timur lame and Nadir Shah for a start?

How do you think the Hindu/Budhhist culture get so totally wiped out from Afghanistan/Pakistan? Was it all without any violence/genocides?

Why are there no Zoroastrians left in Iran? Did they leave Persia and seek refuge in India voluntarily?

Almost 50% of today's Muslims had Hindu ancestors. I can tell you most of them did not convert voluntarily! Why don't people convert now in such large numbers? Because they can no longer be forced on pain of death or discrimination!

Conversions over hundreds of years would have done the same thing.

I am not saying that there may not have been genocides, but I think to argue that that genocide occurred simply because "conversions couldn't possibly have done so" is flawed.

As for conversions not occurring with the same rapidity anymore - it could be attributed to both the novelty of a new faith wearing off (its not "new" anymore). Do we have any numbers on when the conversion rate stabilized? Your argument is really quite speculative at this point.
 
Conversions over hundreds of years would have done the same thing.

I am not saying that there may not have been genocides, but I think to argue that that genocide occurred simply because "conversions couldn't possibly have done so" is flawed.

As for conversions not occurring with the same rapidity anymore - it could be attributed to both the novelty of a new faith wearing off (its not "new" anymore). Do we have any numbers on when the conversion rate stabilized? Your argument is really quite speculative at this point.

There are obviously differing opinions on this aspect. Muslims obviously claim that there were no or little forced conversions but we also read of accounts which clearly point to the opposite. As history is written by the victors, much of the gory details have been lost but I have read accounts which mention a toll of up to 90 million in these genocides in the Indian subcontinent alone.

The two genocides that I pointed out (just for a start) were obviously religiously motivated and showed the mindset of those carrying them out. Indeed it is difficult to find more bigoted people in history than these.

We also know why Guru Teg Bahadur was murdered by Aurangzeb (For opposing forced conversions in Kashmir).

I am posting a link which I personally feel reflects the reality correctly:

Michelle Malkin » Islam’s long history of forced conversions

And a quote from there:

Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional—they have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.

Moreover, during jihad—even the jihad campaigns of the 20th century [i.e., the jihad genocide of the Armenians during World War I, the Moplah jihad in Southern India [1921], the jihad against the Assyrians of Iraq [early 1930s], the jihads against the Chinese of Indonesia and the Christian Ibo of southern Nigeria in the 1960s, and the jihad against the Christians and Animists of the southern Sudan from 1983 to 2001], the (dubious) concept of “no compulsion” (Koran 2:256; which was cited with tragic irony during the Fox reporters “confessional”!), has always been meaningless. A consistent practice was to enslave populations taken from outside the boundaries of the “Dar al Islam”, where Islamic rule (and Law) prevailed. Inevitably fresh non-Muslim slaves, including children, were Islamized within a generation, their ethnic and linguistic origins erased. Two enduring and important mechanisms for this conversion were concubinage and the slave militias—practices still evident in the contemporary jihad waged by the Arab Muslim Khartoum government against the southern Sudanese Christians and Animists. And Julia Duin reported in early 2002 that murderous jihad terror campaigns—including, prominently, forced conversions to Islam—continued to be waged against the Christians of Indonesia’s Moluccan Islands.
 
When we remember about Islamic presence in India, what comes to mind?

Mahmud Gazani's Somnath temple destructions, genocides(up to 2 millions claimed), rapes, slaves from areas now in Pakistan and North India and he is a Pakisani hero!

Mohammed Gauri begging Prithviraj Chauhan after defeat for pardon and then murdering him.

30000 Rajput civilians murdered after one of Akbar's conquests in Rajputana (I think you mentioned being from Rajput lineage, how do you see that?)

The utterly bigoted rule by Aurangzeb with temple destructions on a mass scale and forced conversions on a bigger scale.

Alauddin Khilzi raiding a kingdom to rape the queen and the Jauhar that the Palace women did. (How would you see that again as a former Rajput?)

Destructions and repeated genocides by Bahamani rulers in South India.

Just to give a few examples...
 
Mohammed Gauri begging Prithviraj Chauhan after defeat for pardon and then murdering him.

30000 Rajput civilians murdered after one of Akbar's conquests in Rajputana (I think you mentioned being from Rajput lineage, how do you see that?).

Let me leave aside the rest of your points for later - this one got my attention for now.

I wonder if how I feel about this incident reflects upon my observations in the other thread that Islam tends to create an identity that absorbs and shadows any prior identity.

Being a Rajput is realy far down on my set of identifiers - Pakistani, Muslim (agnostic :)), Lahori, Rajput, Punjabi - in that order I would say. The last three shift around.

I don't feel any animosity honestly. I merely look at it as a part of history, and history almost everywhere is bloody and violent. Perhaps this is because I am now "part of the invaders", in that my family has been Muslim for so many generations.

But an interesting question.

I would like to hear from others with similar histories to find out how they feel.
 
AM, I am really glad that we can discuss such things in a civilized manner.

Obviously all we are discussing is a history long gone. So no need to take any of this personally, just an attempt to discuss this issue dispassionately.

But I find your answer a bit intriguing. If you (and other Pakistanis) can forget this history, why every alleged fault of India and Hindus is remembered for ever? Why not show the same "magnanimity" on that score too? ;)
 
AM, I am really glad that we can discuss such things in a civilized manner.

Obviously all we are discussing is a history long gone. So no need to take any of this personally, just an attempt to discuss this issue dispassionately.

But I find your answer a bit intriguing. If you (and other Pakistanis) can forget this history, why every alleged fault of India and Hindus is remembered for ever? Why not show the same "magnanimity" on that score too? ;)

lol - more recent history I suppose. And the perceived threat from India (not so much Hindus for me) still exists. Its a question of continuing distrust and suspicion - I believe you will find positions moderating a great deal were a comprehensive peace between the two nations to occur.
 
lol - more recent history I suppose. And the perceived threat from India (not so much Hindus for me) still exists. Its a question of continuing distrust and suspicion - I believe you will find positions moderating a great deal were a comprehensive peace between the two nations to occur.

Amen to that. :toast_sign:
 
Alright!!

Sorry for off topic post, but this is getting a little too sweet...Vinod, next thing I know you guys will be making out...:smitten:
 
Unfortunately, none of us belongs to the fairer gender.

Else that could have been a distinct possibility. ;)
 
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