Havildar Lalak Jan Shaheed - Nishan-i-Haider - Pakistan Army

[Psychic]

In the end, those who lived had to face the shame of defeat and question if their withdrawal is what upset the balance against the Third Reich. Ghussa main bilkul nahi hua, meri tone shuru say hi thori stern hai but I'm pretty soft at heart.

That being said, scrutiny is something for the public, for a soldier his superior's word is infallible and it must remain that way. Why else would someone like me follow a crazy colonel into a killing field to extricate 200 guys whose fate is all but sealed with only about 100 troops backing us against upwards of 2000 taliban holding higher ground? I and my men did so because we knew that the colonel thinks of our welfare before he thinks of his own, we are like his children and he will not send us heedlessly to our deaths and so we had the courage to stare death square in the face and snatch our men from its jaws. If we had disobeyed, maybe everyone from the rescue party might have lived for that day, but how long would they have been able to cheat death? How would they have been able to live with the knowledge that they allowed 200 men to die just so that they may live? How many of them would have been able to bear the mark of being a deserter and faced their families with their tainted reputation? We live with no regrets today because we did all that we could, those who know they let their comrades down are either consigned to a life of misery or a death by their own hand. Given the choice, I would choose to die by my enemy's blow any day than by my own.
I tried to give you a brief insight into my mind, I am not very poetic with my words so please bear with my inferior account but this is how a soldier thinks and that is why for us, logic can only take us so far, sometimes we get things done based on loyalty and a lot of adrenaline.

I talked about the break out of 6th army not desertion or surrender instead of sitting like ducks in Stalingrad just becaused Hitler ordered them to do so. I never suggested that they should have deserted. You better know about withdrawl and avoidance to commit a folly. I fully agree that the soldiers had to obeythe orders I tried to mention the stupidity of Mushy which is also debate able but I as a layman have my own opinion about it, which I stated. Your co used you and your men as a bait, what a naughty boy he is but you faught for something didn't you. It was perhaps necessary to achieve victory against those savages, hence OK. But I think Mushy sacrifised a lot of men idiotically that is why I am against those dumbos who did not question Mush's orders high ranking dumbos. You may disagree on that. Fighting should not be pointless like doing banzai charges and getting slaughtered immediately. Good to know that you sent some talis to hell. My salute

I read it in a book but cant really recall the name of the interviewer. He asked General Niazi that why he did not fight for just another 24 hours (similar questions were also asked by the Hamood-ur-Rahman commission) and General replied that there was no use of it, the result would still be the same. The interviewer rendered General mute by saying "Perhaps the result would not be different but the history would be".

The book was "mein nay Dhaka doobtay dekha" the author and interviewer was Brig Siddique Salik.

I talked about the break out of 6th army not desertion or surrender instead of sitting like ducks in Stalingrad just becaused Hitler ordered them to do so.

In the end, those who lived had to face the shame of defeat and question if their withdrawal is what upset the balance against the Third Reich.

I could not understand that part earlier. The 8th army instead of surrendering or dying as per Hitler's orders, broke out and faught the Soviets until the end of war. They cobtributed to the defence of Germany, had they obeyed the orders, they would have been anihlated andSoviets would had a relitively easier run over Germany. Mainstein is still considered a military genious like Romel and Hitler is cobsidered a military stupid as he was a polititian, not a general but was supreme commander of German forces.

 

[ghoul]

Is it just me or they look more like Pashtoons ?

They look somewhat different. It's their Pakol hats which gives such an illusion. A lot of our Northern brothers are settled in Rawalpindi city, where local people mistake them for "pathans". They don't like being called "pathan" according to my experience. They are also intensely patriotic in my experience, not given much to qaum parasti which so many Pakistanis are.

And @WAJsal, I heard NLI was formed in 48 to massacre Dogras(I heard they killed 3000 of them). Am I right?

Also, when will we give out nishan-e-haiders to men who embraced martyrdom while fighting the TTP? I hate it so much when media says "Pakistan army soldiers killed" rather than "martyred". Son of....

 

[third eye]

As a Fauj (military) historian, I believe Kargil war was a debacle for Pakistan army. Even though my heart and my soul will continue saying salaam to all the shaheeds and ghazis of Pakistan wars including the one in Kargil.

Here is the reason why I say it was a debacle.
Time and again our strategists fail to take into account Bharati air force and the sheer numbers of troops they can deploy against Pakistan.

In Kargil too, Bharati army would not have taken back many of the peaks had it not been for the precision (laser guided) high altitude bombing by Bharrati airforce.

Unfortunately Pakistani airfoce had no answer.
And thus we lost.

Mind you, that even if Bharati airfoce had failed, the next trump card for Bharat has always been to amass troops on Pakistan's soft underbelly.

So from pure military strategy, Kargil should not have been allowed.

I'll end my post by saying to Lalak Jaan Shaheed and countless other martyrs (with tears flowing down my eyes:

Aiay Rahe haq kay Shaheedo, tumeh watan ki hawain salaam kehti hain

Sane thoughts

Kargil was an extremely ill; conceived operation made worse by poor execution.

It spoke of the inability of Pak Generals once again to think things through to its logical conclusion.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Sane thoughts.

Thanks.


As a military historian, one has to be brutally honest, and in the process challenge his own generals.

BTW Bharati generals did terrible job in their efforts to dislodge Pakisanis.

Those frontal assaults lead to un-needed deaths of very precious soldiers.

mountain warfare is a different beast, and bharati generals made terrible mistakes by relying on brute force.

peace

 

[third eye]

Thanks.


As a military historian, one has to be brutally honest, and in the process challenge his own generals.

BTW Bharati generals did terrible job in their efforts to dislodge Pakisanis.

Those frontal assaults lead to un-needed deaths of very precious soldiers.

mountain warfare is a different beast, and bharati generals made terrible mistakes by relying on brute force.

peace

The options were few .

Crossing the LOC was not permitted by the Govt hence frontal uphill assaults were the only option, what else could they have done ?

 

[FaujHistorian]

The options were few .

Crossing the LOC was not permitted by the Govt hence frontal uphill assaults were the only option, what else could they have done ?

There were options. The supply lines aka logistics in Kargil were extremely vulnerable to arial attacks.

But INdian generals had no forking idea.

and thus they ended up using the wrong technique.

At this time, you and I should be above the jinguism if you want to discuss military history. Thank you. As you probably noticed my attempts on this analysis have been unemotional and thus honest.

For you too bhai jaan,

No need to justify Bharati generals bhai.

No need

They goofed up big time and wasted so many precious soldiers.

peace

 

[WAJsal]

And @WAJsal, I heard NLI was formed in 48 to massacre Dogras(I heard they killed 3000 of them). Am I right?

Not massacre NLI was formed in 1971 . you might be talking about scouts or maybe something else .

 

[Zarvan]

He was a lion who fought alone against 200 Indian Soldiers and didn't stopped until he died. Salute you and Proud of you

 

[khujliwal]

Wars are fought by brave young men for coward old men.

 

[Sine Nomine]

yes our bravemen.and then that man caled nawaz reversed the whole kargil. So much blood and sacrifices went wasted.

\
It was not Nawaz who tuned down SOS signals,Nawaz was not Cheif of Air staff..

As a Fauj (military) historian, I believe Kargil war was a debacle for Pakistan army. Even though my heart and my soul will continue saying salaam to all the shaheeds and ghazis of Pakistan wars including the one in Kargil.

Here is the reason why I say it was a debacle.
Time and again our strategists fail to take into account Bharati air force and the sheer numbers of troops they can deploy against Pakistan.

In Kargil too, Bharati army would not have taken back many of the peaks had it not been for the precision (laser guided) high altitude bombing by Bharrati airforce.

Unfortunately Pakistani airfoce had no answer.
And thus we lost.

Mind you, that even if Bharati airfoce had failed, the next trump card for Bharat has always been to amass troops on Pakistan's soft underbelly.

So from pure military strategy, Kargil should not have been allowed.

I'll end my post by saying to Lalak Jaan Shaheed and countless other martyrs (with tears flowing down my eyes:

Aiay Rahe haq kay Shaheedo, tumeh watan ki hawain salaam kehti hain

Agreed...

 

[Shamain]

\
It was not Nawaz who tuned down SOS signals,Nawaz was not Cheif of Air staff..

plz share more abt air chief or give some link.
Then why musharraf had said it was a military victory that became a political defeat.

 

[FaujHistorian]

plz share more abt air chief or give some link.
Then why musharraf had said it was a military victory that became a political defeat.

Mush is lying in the face of reality.

 

[Sine Nomine]

plz share more abt air chief or give some link.
Then why musharraf had said it was a military victory that became a political defeat.

Read this kid Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force
@FaujHistorian please sir tell this guy something,he thinks in Army ops capturing is everything but in fact retaining captured is real task..

 

[Shamain]

@FaujHistorian historian please sir tell this guy something,he thinks in Army ops capturing is everything but in fact retaining captured is real task..

When did i say i think this way?? I asked for some link etc.

 

[Sine Nomine]

When did i say i think this way?? I asked for some link etc.

link posted...