Havildar Lalak Jan Shaheed - Nishan-i-Haider - Pakistan Army

[Psychic]

T

Some important heights, though the withdrawal cost us a lot of unnecessary lives.



A lot of fine men.

Are those heights relevant now? As the Indians have constructed an alternate all weather link road. What advantage do we have over Indians because of those heights?

 

[Icarus]

T

Are those heights relevant now? As the Indians have constructed an alternate all weather link road. What advantage do we have over Indians because of those heights?

Heights are never irrelevant, they can create alternative routes but dominating features are always an asset.

 

[Psychic]

Heights are never irrelevant, they can create alternative routes but dominating features are always an asset.

Hmmm but then there was no need to push the offensive all the way to tiger hill. Those hieghts were manageable but PA pushed the offensive to unmanagable levels which was a logistical mis calculation of Musharaf and company. Our soldiers on Tiger hill and other forward positions faught while they starved as a result of the blunder of Musharaf.

 

[Armstrong]

@Icarus - Janaab itnaa diplomatic reply tou foreign office nahin detaaa....are you sure you're not in the wrong profession ?

I can imagine it - His Excellency Icarus the Sethi Pakistan's ambassador to Buttistan !

 

[Icarus]

Hmmm but then there was no need to push the offensive all the way to tiger hill. Those hieghts were manageable but PA pushed the offensive to unmanagable levels which was a logistical mis calculation of Musharaf and company. Our soldiers on Tiger hill and other forward positions faught while they starved as a result of the blunder of Musharaf.

These things are for you to question, they have no misgivings against what they were ordered. A good soldier does not question, he fights where he is told with what he is given. Nobody cares for us more than our own superiors and they extend the best they can to us in the most adverse circumstances.

@Icarus - Janaab itnaa diplomatic reply tou foreign office nahin detaaa....are you sure you're not in the wrong profession ?

I can imagine it - His Excellency Icarus the Sethi Pakistan's ambassador to Buttistan !

Ab MQM kay baad aap koh bhi mulk tornay ka khayal aagaya hai?

 

[Armstrong]

Ab MQM kay baad aap koh bhi mulk tornay ka khayal aagaya hai?

Mulk tornaaa......no...no...never !

I was merely pointing out that Pakistan was made for me...I am a Butt...so was Quaid-e-Azam even if his physique didn't make that obvious, so renaming it as Buttistan would be a good idea !

 

[Icarus]

Mulk tornaaa......no...no...never !

I was merely pointing out that Pakistan was made for me...I am a Butt...so was Quaid-e-Azam even if his physique didn't make that obvious, so renaming it as Buttistan would be a good idea !

Yaar pehlay Quaid Shia thay ya Sunni, yeh debate kam thi kay ab Khwaja thay ya Butt wali debate bhi andar lay ao gay?

 

[Armstrong]

Yaar pehlay Quaid Shia thay ya Sunni, yeh debate kam thi kay ab Khwaja thay ya Butt wali debate bhi andar lay ao gay?

Quaid-e-Azam was neither a Shia nor was he a Sunni - He was a Muslim just like me !

Aur Quaid Khawaja tou ho nahin sakteiii.....because Khawajas are fake Kashmiris as I like to tell my cousins all the time !

Aur jaaan aur sunaiiin ? Sunday ko bhiii aaap on duty hain ya phir koi Bhabi-Hunt par niklaneii ka program hai ?

 

[Psychic]

These things are for you to question, they have no misgivings against what they were ordered. A good soldier does not question, he fights where he is told with what he is given. Nobody cares for us more than our own superiors and they extend the best they can to us in the most adverse circumstances.



Ab MQM kay baad aap koh bhi mulk tornay ka khayal aagaya hai?

Sir g I never support these old fashioned ideas of dying without questioning. German 6th army was decimated because Paulus did not have the courage to disobey Hitler, He could have saved his men and continued fighting. On the contrary Von Meinstein saved 8th army from a similar fate by dis obeying Hitler. Do we not have the right to question the geniuses who made our troops suffer? Sir g ghussay wali gal ni hai ye many ex army men also raised these types of questions and they are a lot senior army guys. Many soldiers themselves talked how the survived by eating grass and insects. They must not be proud of their superiors.

 

[rockstarIN]

Hmmm but then there was no need to push the offensive all the way to tiger hill. Those hieghts were manageable but PA pushed the offensive to unmanagable levels which was a logistical mis calculation of Musharaf and company. Our soldiers on Tiger hill and other forward positions faught while they starved as a result of the blunder of Musharaf.

It was a cross L.O.C operation.

There were no official borders till that time, so whoever standing there on both side is the LOC. The current LOC is formed in 1971 war, if I'm not wrong. Pakistan might thought that (around 50%)Indians wont try to recapture it and merely accept the change in LOC. The decision to retake it militarily and the tactical use of PGMs by IAF was the real surpirse for the planners.

Even it opened an idea of high intensity conflict in LOC area under nuke umbrella which strategically a lose for Pakistan.

 

[Icarus]

Quaid-e-Azam was neither a Shia nor was he a Sunni - He was a Muslim just like me !

Aur Quaid Khawaja tou ho nahin sakteiii.....because Khawajas are fake Kashmiris as I like to tell my cousins all the time !

Aur jaaan aur sunaiiin ? Sunday ko bhiii aaap on duty hain ya phir koi Bhabi-Hunt par niklaneii ka program hai ?

Nahi yaar, I enjoyed a long weekend. Kuch reports compile karni theen magar the charm of working from home is that I can be as unproductive as I want!

 

[Psychic]

It was a cross L.O.C operation.

There were no official borders till that time, so whoever standing there on both side is the LOC. The current LOC is formed in 1971 war, if I'm not wrong. Pakistan might thought that (around 50%)Indians wont try to recapture it and merely accept the change in LOC. The decision to retake it militarily and the tactical use of PGMs by IAF was the real surpirse for the planners.

Even it opened an idea of high intensity conflict in LOC area under nuke umbrella which strategically a lose for Pakistan.

No one just sits idle because enemy is on the LOC and not Amritser or Lahore. PA launched sucidal attacks on IA positions in Siachen and it is well understood that the oposing forces, no matter Pakistan's or India's reteliate to any happening on LOC. Just like PA foiled an IA attempt to capture some hieghts in Leepa valley in 1972.

 

[rockstarIN]

No one just sits idle because enemy is on the LOC and not Amritser or Lahore. PA launched sucidal attacks on IA positions in Siachen and it is well understood that the oposing forces, no matter Pakistan's or India's reteliate to any happening on LOC. Just like PA foiled an IA attempt to capture some hieghts in Leepa valley in 1972.

That all happens in LOC, not international border. Post 2002, it almost came to a halt.

 

[syedali73]

Sir g I never support these old fashioned ideas of dying without questioning..... Many soldiers themselves talked how the survived by eating grass and insects. They must not be proud of their superiors.

I read it in a book but cant really recall the name of the interviewer. He asked General Niazi that why he did not fight for just another 24 hours (similar questions were also asked by the Hamood-ur-Rahman commission) and General replied that there was no use of it, the result would still be the same. The interviewer rendered General mute by saying "Perhaps the result would not be different but the history would be".

 

[Icarus]

Sir g I never support these old fashioned ideas of dying without questioning. German 6th army was decimated because Paulus did not have the courage to disobey Hitler, He could have saved his men and continued fighting. On the contrary Von Meinstein saved 8th army from a similar fate by dis obeying Hitler. Do we not have the right to question the geniuses who made our troops suffer? Sir g ghussay wali gal ni hai ye many ex army men also raised these types of questions and they are a lot senior army guys. Many soldiers themselves talked how the survived by eating grass and insects. They must not be proud of their superiors.

In the end, those who lived had to face the shame of defeat and question if their withdrawal is what upset the balance against the Third Reich. Ghussa main bilkul nahi hua, meri tone shuru say hi thori stern hai but I'm pretty soft at heart.

That being said, scrutiny is something for the public, for a soldier his superior's word is infallible and it must remain that way. Why else would someone like me follow a crazy colonel into a killing field to extricate 200 guys whose fate is all but sealed with only about 100 troops backing us against upwards of 2000 taliban holding higher ground? I and my men did so because we knew that the colonel thinks of our welfare before he thinks of his own, we are like his children and he will not send us heedlessly to our deaths and so we had the courage to stare death square in the face and snatch our men from its jaws. If we had disobeyed, maybe everyone from the rescue party might have lived for that day, but how long would they have been able to cheat death? How would they have been able to live with the knowledge that they allowed 200 men to die just so that they may live? How many of them would have been able to bear the mark of being a deserter and faced their families with their tainted reputation? We live with no regrets today because we did all that we could, those who know they let their comrades down are either consigned to a life of misery or a death by their own hand. Given the choice, I would choose to die by my enemy's blow any day than by my own.
I tried to give you a brief insight into my mind, I am not very poetic with my words so please bear with my inferior account but this is how a soldier thinks and that is why for us, logic can only take us so far, sometimes we get things done based on loyalty and a lot of adrenaline.