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Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

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Can you quantify this 'very large number of people overtly or covertly happy with the 9/11 attacks'? On the 'covert' front I suspect it is merely your personal opinion, since covet would imply 'secretly happy' and there is no way for someone to judge what someone is thinking ....

On the 'overt front' I won't argue that various Muslims communities around the world inevitably included people who experienced some degree of schadenfreude at the suffering of one they blamed for the suffering of many Muslims, but in terms of the American Muslim community, which is the subject of discussion here, I believe you are making broad generalizations and projecting onto them opinions that you believe they hold, perhaps based on interactions with a handful of people on fora and elsewhere.

I gave an example from the book "the reluctant fundamentalist". I believe (not without basis) that it was a very common phenomenon. Not everything comes with a smoking gun or photographic or video vidence. People who want to continue living in the USA have an obvious incentive to hide their true feelings, especially in front of non-Muslim audiences.

True intentions come to the fore under the cover of anonymity provided by the internet or in closed circles.

Now obviously, not every Muslim who immigrated to USA falls in this bucket but a very large number did. There is no way to know which category is bigger, not for you and not for me.

The point being that the people who are opposing this are doing it because they know that the extremists will rejoice in the "weakness" of American democracy against them. The non-extremists should have no specific issue about the same spot.

Same as the KBS was contemptuous of the USA and threatening them even when he was arrested. He was sure of getting the Miranda rights and therefor had only contempt for the USA. He only started cooperating when given the "enhanced treatment".

It would be similar to my argument that Indians rejoice in the terrorism and misery inflicted upon Pakistan, shown by the fact that there are tens of thousands of comments (in mainstream Indian news sites) on articles detailing terrorist attacks and disasters in Pakistan, that show Indians in a very poor light. These aren't 'right wing Hindu' sites either, but your largest 'Times of India, Hindustan Times etc.' news organizations.

A bit off-topic (leaving apart the accuracy of the claim). Indians are not indulging in those activities. It is Pakistani Muslims versus Pakistani Muslims here. The opinions of some Indians may be hardline because of the decades of terror by Pakistan (as they see it) in India. Some may feel this will teach Pakistan that terror is nobody's friend.

BTW, show me one article in the two newspapers that supports terror in Pakistan or anywhere.

I don't know what you mean by 'large number' unless you quantify it and prove it by some credible means - Pew/Gallup polls on attitudes or sentiments of American Muslims perhaps? To me it appears like you projecting your personal biases and opinions onto American Muslims.

As for 'Zionist conspiracy', a lot of Muslims may indeed believe that, but also inherent in that position is the fact that the act of terrorism was a despicable and condemnable one, otherwise why would they consider Mossad and Zionists responsible?

If you took a Pew/Gallup opinion poll of the 19 terrorists on 9/10. what do you expect the result to be?

This is a red herring.

Even you know that the issue is not about "American Muslims" only. It is about the general perception and whether you like it or not, there is a problem there.

Do you consider yourself an American Muslim BTW?
 
It is very interesting that Islamic perception of this Mosque is towards human rights as well as moral religious beliefs. What is not understood by the Islamic community is the perception of the American People at hand... But Who am I to discuss this issue further.

What is amazing to me is that after reading Mr. Muse comment that the threat to Muslim community will increase interms of this Mosque, to not to go into politics, or religous bias, or anyother bias etc....

I have been living in this country for last 30+ years, and, in the past, before post 911, I have heardly seen women in Hijab in American, but after the 911, I see more of them.. Which to me clearly show the proudness of these women displaying there religious beliefs in Public as well the flexiblity of Americans in Accepting them. Just walk to any public park in America today, you will understand what I am talking about. What minorities persecution are we talking about in America, one day it is Muslims, other it is Mexicans, other it is illegal immigrants, other it is African Americans (that will always remain to the end of time in US), etc......

Just the acceptance of the Mosque near the world trade center is clear enough proof of the political and ideals of America, there would be no country in this world who can trump this acceptance after such tragedy, and that is why this US of A (as some have refer to here) is most Free.....
 
A cultural center/Church, by say the Catholic Church, close to the site of the massacre, if we are playing by the exact same laws that are applicable in the State of New York, I personally would have no problem with.
So you have no problems with the local muslims' objections? Is that correct because that is my question. The question is about the objection, not the laws that allow the construction.
 
So you have no problems with the local muslims' objections? Is that correct because that is my question. The question is about the objection, not the laws that allow the construction.

I was referring to 'no problems' with the construction of the Church/Cultural Center.
 
I was referring to 'no problems' with the construction of the Church/Cultural Center.
I stated my position a while back, that I will respect the rule of law. But the question I posed that you and apparently others are quite adroitly avoiding is that: If the local muslims in Srebenica object to any non-muslims 'cultural center' or house of worship to be built near the massacre site where 8000 muslims where killed, would people here object to their objections as equally strident and critical as they do for US?
 
I gave an example from the book "the reluctant fundamentalist". I believe (not without basis) that it was a very common phenomenon. Not everything comes with a smoking gun or photographic or video vidence. People who want to continue living in the USA have an obvious incentive to hide their true feelings, especially in front of non-Muslim audiences.

True intentions come to the fore under the cover of anonymity provided by the internet or in closed circles.

Now obviously, not every Muslim who immigrated to USA falls in this bucket but a very large number did. There is no way to know which category is bigger, not for you and not for me.

The point being that the people who are opposing this are doing it because they know that the extremists will rejoice in the "weakness" of American democracy against them. The non-extremists should have no specific issue about the same spot.

Same as the KBS was contemptuous of the USA and threatening them even when he was arrested. He was sure of getting the Miranda rights and therefor had only contempt for the USA. He only started cooperating when given the "enhanced treatment".
Did I understand you correctly in that you are referring to a work of fiction by a Pakistani author to make a very broad claim about the sentiments of American Muslims?

You speak of 'true intentions under the cover of anonymity provided by the internet or closed circles', but how on earth can you claim to argue that a majority, or even a significant minority, of American Muslims subscribe to the views expressed 'on the internet', and similarly how are YOU privy to enough 'closed circles' to make a judgment on how many American Muslims believe what? This is really poor substantiation of your argument, built on an edifice of anecdotes, 'secret sentiments' and 'conversations in closed circles' - in essence you have no clue, but are willing to believe the worst about American Muslims, and all Muslims, on the basis of very little.

As for the part about 'neither you nor I can show our claims to be true', that is a fallacious argument. You are the one making the accusation here and ascribing a particular sentiment to American Muslims, and Muslims in general, without any empirical evidence to support your contentions. And in order to make up for the lack of supporting evidence, you want to argue that the accused party needs to prove its innocence, rather than the accused prove guilt. One cannot disprove something that never existed, but one can point to the publicly available statements from Muslim groups and the publicly expressed sentiment against terrorism and the 9/11 attacks to make the case that the expressed sentiment clearly indicates a viewpoint that does not match with the viewpoint you claim American Muslims possess.
A bit off-topic (leaving apart the accuracy of the claim). Indians are not indulging in those activities. It is Pakistani Muslims versus Pakistani Muslims here. The opinions of some Indians may be hardline because of the decades of terror by Pakistan (as they see it) in India. Some may feel this will teach Pakistan that terror is nobody's friend.

BTW, show me one article in the two newspapers that supports terror in Pakistan or anywhere.
The point is not about who is indulging in what activity, but the fact that those tens of thousands of comments on mainstream Indian media sites show Indians as rejoicing in the killings of Pakistanis in terrorist acts, and rejoicing in the misery of Pakistanis in other disasters. Similar comments even appear in mainstream Western sites such as the WaPO, WSJ and NYT. These articles are archived by most of these media sites. Go back and locate the pieces on terrorist attacks or other negative events in Pakistan and read the comments sections yourself. Comments on Indian defence fora and some blogs are another obvious validation of my POV.

BTW, I am referring to the comments made by ordinary Indians reading the articles, not the articles themselves.

As an aside, India is no angel when it comes to supporting 'terrorism', as evidenced by Indian support for terrorists/insurgents in East Pakistan and its support for the LTTE, let alone Pakistani accusations over support for terrorists in Baluchistan.

If you took a Pew/Gallup opinion poll of the 19 terrorists on 9/10. what do you expect the result to be?

This is a red herring.

Even you know that the issue is not about "American Muslims" only. It is about the general perception and whether you like it or not, there is a problem there.

Do you consider yourself an American Muslim BTW?
If you took a poll of the people who massacred 2000 Muslims in Gujarat and the CM Modi before the massacre, what do you think the result will be? Does that imply all Hindus are vile murdering bastards?

The 'red herring' here is your argument - your argument is that a criminal will not admit to a crime before the crime is committed, and therefore, all people belonging to X,Y,Z identity marker common to the criminal are also criminals, despite their 'non-criminal' lives and expressed sentiment to the contrary. That you have to grasp for such absurdities to vilify Muslims only indicates the desperation of your position.

As for myself, I consider myself a Pakistani-American Agnostic Muslim, for so long as I retain that connection to both nations. But if it comes to having to make a choice, it should be obvious where my loyalties lie.
 
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I stated my position a while back, that I will respect the rule of law. But the question I posed that you and apparently others are quite adroitly avoiding is that: If the local muslims in Srebenica object to any non-muslims 'cultural center' or house of worship to be built near the massacre site where 8000 muslims where killed, would people here object to their objections as equally strident and critical as they do for US?
I would suspect they would not protest as stridently, mostly for the reasons that there is no connection to Srebrenica for many of us as there is a connection to the US, beyond that you'll just have to wait and see if your 'perfect analogy' comes to pass.
 
I would suspect they would not protest as stridently, mostly for the reasons that there is no connection to Srebrenica for many of us as there is a connection to the US, beyond that you'll just have to wait and see if your 'perfect analogy' comes to pass.
I did not ask for your opinion on the level of response the Srebenica muslims would show. It seems to me that you and the others, by either silence or evasion, are fully willing to give the muslims an exception to the rule that you would be more than willing to apply to US. If we object out of our emotions, everyone gathers in front of us and condemn US as bigots. If, in a hypothetical situation that the muslims are placed in our position, and those muslims object, then everyone scatters. The hypothetical situation is not even that hypothetical. The backdrop is real enough -- 8000 muslims murdered by Serbs.
 
Did I understand you correctly in that you are referring to a work of fiction by a Pakistani author to make a very broad claim about the sentiments of American Muslims?

No. That is not what I meant.

I have formed my opinion through various sources. Also it was not fiction and you know it.

He was reflecting the statements of a very large number of people and this is something easy to verify. Look at the reviews of the book in the Pakistani and international media.

You speak of 'true intentions under the cover of anonymity provided by the internet or closed circles', but how on earth can you claim to argue that a majority, or even a significant minority, of American Muslims subscribe to the views expressed 'on the internet', and similarly how are YOU privy to enough 'closed circles' to make a judgment on how many American Muslims believe what? This is really poor substantiation of your argument, built on an edifice of anecdotes, 'secret sentiments' and 'conversations in closed circles' - in essence you have no clue, but are willing to believe the worst about American Muslims, and all Muslims, on the basis of very little.

Again no. My opinions have been formed based on my observations and study over several years. I didn't say anything about the numbers or even "American Muslims". It is not only about "American Muslims" and you know it. Why spin the issue?

As for the part about 'neither you nor I can show our claims to be true', that is a fallacious argument. You are the one making the accusation here and ascribing a particular sentiment to American Muslims, and Muslims in general, without any empirical evidence to support your contentions. And in order to make up for the lack of supporting evidence, you want to argue that the accused party needs to prove its innocence, rather than the accused prove guilt. One cannot disprove something that never existed, but one can point to the publicly available statements from Muslim groups and the publicly expressed sentiment against terrorism and the 9/11 attacks to make the case that the expressed sentiment clearly indicates a viewpoint that does not match with the viewpoint you claim American Muslims possess.

I didn't make any accusations. I only replied to your post and you can try to read it again without mixing it with posts from other people. I just said that a large number of Muslims (living in West and East) were happy with those attacks. Sufficient empirical evidence exists for this. At least for those who don't have put on the blinkers.

Not to say that there are not many people who oppose them as well.

It would be just like saying that there are many supporters of TTP in Pakistan. You know that, you have seen them, you can see their youtube videos, visit their extremist forums (Al ansar?) etc. You can't claim that such people don't exist.

Those people (and their ability to hijack the agenda) has created a problem and youa re free to deny that.

The point is not about who is indulging in what activity, but the fact that those tens of thousands of comments on mainstream Indian media sites show Indians as rejoicing in the killings of Pakistanis in terrorist acts, and rejoicing in the misery of Pakistanis in other disasters. Similar comments even appear in mainstream Western sites such as the WaPO, WSJ and NYT. These articles are archived by most of these media sites. Go back and locate the pieces on terrorist attacks or other negative events in Pakistan and read the comments sections yourself. Comments on Indian defence fora and some blogs are another obvious validation of my POV.

BTW, I am referring to the comments made by ordinary Indians reading the articles, not the articles themselves.

As an aside, India is no angel when it comes to supporting 'terrorism', as evidenced by Indian support for terrorists/insurgents in East Pakistan and its support for the LTTE, let alone Pakistani accusations over support for terrorists in Baluchistan.

This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand. I am not sure how you arrived at tens of thousands. I can show you tens of thousands of posts by Pakistani Muslims who support the massacre of PA because they are fighting for the great Satan BTW.

If you took a poll of the people who massacred 2000 Muslims in Gujarat and the CM Modi before the massacre, what do you think the result will be? Does that imply all Hindus are vile murdering bastards?

Absurd and unrelated. Anyway, I have told you that the official toll in that decade old riots is 784 Muslims and 280 Hindus (obviously kaffir lives are cheap for the final and perfect people and don't count).

What is the toll in Pakistan at the hands of Muslim terrorists? What about Karachi tolls? What about Shia murdered over the last few decades in sectarian murders?

But you miss all that with your blinkers and keep harping on that decade old riot started because of the ghastly train burning that your PTV was celebrating that night!

The 'red herring' here is your argument - your argument is that a criminal will not admit to a crime before the crime is committed, and therefore, all people belonging to X,Y,Z identity marker common to the criminal are also criminals, despite their 'non-criminal' lives and expressed sentiment to the contrary. That you have to grasp for such absurdities to vilify Muslims only indicates the desperation of your position.

Nope. You brought in Pew/Gallup. They are meaningless to this issue.

You are also mixing the context from several other unrelated issues/posts. We need to just reply to the issues raised by the particular member and not mix with others.

As for myself, I consider myself a Pakistani-American Agnostic Muslim, for so long as I retain that connection to both nations. But if it comes to having to make a choice, it should be obvious where my loyalties lie.

OK. Fair enough.
 
OK, that is fair.

But weren't there a very large number of people who were overtly or covertly happy with the 9/11 attacks. Either because they thought that the "arrogant" USA has been brought to the heels or because of the American support to the survival of Israel in a perennially hostile neighborhood?

Weren't there a very large number of Muslims (many of them in Western countries) who either openly supported this act or tried to pass it off as a Zionist conspiracy while treating those 19 terrorists as heroes?

I have personally seen Pakistanis who are living in USA who abuse USA at every turn and openly praise people like the Abu Nidal who killed his fellow soldiers.

You may say they are all individuals but together they do paint a picture that tars even the others.

I read some excerpts of the book "The reluctant fundamentalist" by the Pakistani writer. IIRC, he also mentioned the same thing, that many Muslims secretly enjoyed those attacks while paying lip service to condemning the "terror attacks".

Wild goose chase is not a valid argument. More than 50 percent of American hold somewhat covert negative thoughts about the Jewish population. Many belief that Jews have siphoned off $100s of billion dollars to Israel and caused the meltdown in 2008.

I have personally seen many Indians in USA calling President Obama "Kala or Kallu." Some have shown strong disdain towards him. I don't take those out of context. For example, appears to me you certainly find it enjoyable to write against the Mosque for no reason at all. If anything, its about Islam and USA , and none of this should concern you. Yet you have no problem churning out your uncalled attention.

As I said before I am not trying to take your post out of context.
 
What an extremely articulate woman, let me just say that I hate Bill O' reilly to the core but this woman nails it..


You can even visit her official website.
http://www.raheelraza.com/
 
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Best I can tell in polls about Jews In 2010 the favorable/unfavorable ratings concerning Jews have shifted to 65%--29%. Those that favor Jews dropped 71 to 65 percent last year.

About 59 percent now look on Muslims unfavorable, another odd satistic is that the lot of the same people that dont like Jews dont like Muslims either.

From what I see as an American, many americans dont figure muslims like americans so they dont like muslims in return. Of course 911 didnt help any, then you get these fruit cakes trying blow up planes full of civilians with shoe bombs and explosive underwear. Americans just dont grasp the idea of the deliberate killing civilians Then there was the nut in NY with the carbomb make out of fireworks and gasoline. Then some of these almost daily parades in Iran and sometimes Palestine and other places screaming Death to America is not a good way to win friend and influence people. Its hard for most americans to understand these nutty mullahs screaming at the top of their lungs and waveing swords and urgeing crowds to kill americans. Just does not seem like the way religious people are suppose to act. Really not many americans can even comprehend people marching in streets and screaming death to any one. To most americans that is some kind of animal like behavor. Then there is these almost daily horror stories of brutality to women.

Its odd but I sometimes get the feeling that Muslims when it comes to something like this Mosque in New York that they expect a lot more justice and humain, moral behavior from americans then they ever would from Muslims.
 
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Its odd but I sometimes get the feeling that Muslims when it comes to something like this Mosque in New York that they expect a lot more justice and humain, moral behavior from americans then they ever would from Muslims.
Who are these 'Muslims' that you speak? 'Muslim' is not a ethnicity, organization or a nation.

Look at the Taliban. You forget they were bombed back to the stone age for the past 31 years and counting, are uneducated and don't have many economic opportunities.

But, wait. None of that matter because the only reason they do that is because their Muslim. Nothing else can make them act the way they do.

I treat people with justice and humane, moral behavior. Does that mean I'm not a Muslim?
 
Best I can tell in polls about Jews In 2010 the favorable/unfavorable ratings concerning Jews have shifted to 65%--29%. Those that favor Jews dropped 71 to 65 percent last year.

About 59 percent now look on Muslims unfavorable, another odd satistic is that the lot of the same people that dont like Jews dont like Muslims either.

From what I see as an American, many americans dont figure muslims like americans so they dont like muslims in return. Of course 911 didnt help any, then you get these fruit cakes trying blow up planes full of civilians with shoe bombs and explosive underwear. Americans just dont grasp the idea of the deliberate killing civilians Then there was the nut in NY with the carbomb make out of fireworks and gasoline. Then some of these almost daily parades in Iran and sometimes Palestine and other places screaming Death to America is not a good way to win friend and influence people. Its hard for most americans to understand these nutty mullahs screaming at the top of their lungs and waveing swords and urgeing crowds to kill americans. Just does not seem like the way religious people are suppose to act. Really not many americans can even comprehend people marching in streets and screaming death to any one. To most americans that is some kind of animal like behavor. Then there is these almost daily horror stories of brutality to women.

Its odd but I sometimes get the feeling that Muslims when it comes to something like this Mosque in New York that they expect a lot more justice and humain, moral behavior from americans then they ever would from Muslims.

It is not my fault they are stupid and can't tell the difference between the two(Normal Muslims/Crazies). They have to deal with that themselves (Not that they would because most are just arrogant and don't care). I have been in the states for a long time and i have all but given up on educating the masses they have proved to be media manipulated and uneducated to the core(Can't completely blame them. Not like the U.S. is running a "The real Islam campaign" but you do have a "Islamaphobia is great campaign" going on with some of the conservatives though. They just can't be helped.
 
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