Getting it Right in Afghanistan: Prospects for 2014

[godofwar]

I think you may have missed the part where Moeed responds that no matter how you game it -- the playing out of history would have been more or less the same -- I personally tend to agree with his assessment (admittedly, my agreement does not add any weight to Moeed's assertion, I am a nobody, he's an authority on the subject).

I think most of the players have played their cards to hedge -- the structure of the Afghanistan / Pakistan problem would have resulted in more or less the outcomes that have played out -- not because Rawalpindi has great love (or has not) for the misogynist Taliban -- they in this round just happened to to be the least of the worst choices the gurnails thought they had available to them.

If you are as you say a nobody, then how can you claim to say this was the "least of the worst choices"(lol wut ?) Pakistan could make.How about not supporting the terrorists? Is that option not even on the table ? :S
Do the Japanese use terrorism to take Senkaku Isles from China?Cuz we all know they would make the best terrorists.

Pakistan has lost 50,000+ citizen to the Afghan mayhem, and sadly it seems the toll over the next decade is only set to climb -- however one should remember Afghanistan's antics have cost the lives of millions of Afghans (for a nation that even now only has a population of 30 million). The point is simply this: when crying foul over the 50,000 dead Pakistanis, what people fail to remember is the toll for Pakistan could have been may times that. As one of the commentators quipped, "not infrequently there are no good options" or something to that effect.

Do I actually see defense of supporting terrorism from an american.Or are you a Pakistani who hasn't got green card yet
You are effectively saying Pakistan's support of Taliban is not a "big mistake".Lets see how this one works out for you.

Now on to your "Pakistani as spoiler" comment -- You must remember (well a god-of-war certainly must):
1. It was not Pakistan that interfered in Afghanistan first -- it was Afghans starting from almost the founding of Pakistan.

2. It was not Pakistan that invited the Soviets to invade Afghanistan -- it was the Afghans.

3. It was not Pakistan that refused to honor the peace agreements between the Mujahadeen factions -- it was the Afghans

4. Until 2004 or so, there was no support for the Pakistani Taliban. Pakistani elites decided to hedge using the Taliban after what they saw was a hostile Afghanistan -- you may not remember the attitude of the Afghan elites towards Pakistan in 2002--2005 but I suspect most Pakistanis who track Afghanistan do -- Abdullah Abdullah, Amrullah Saleh, Hanif Atmar, Saikal's contempt and snubbing of Pakistan has few parallels. Their posture towards Pakistan, IMHO, deserve a chapter or two in Pakistani school textbooks so Pakistani children know what coin the Afghans paid the poor Pakistani people who hosted them for over 30 years. But I guess tarikh has few takers in Pakistan.

Aha! there it is. The (in)famous) deniability everyone is talking about.US has accepted its mistakes.Thats why it doesn't make many. Why don't you give the video you posted yourself another watch before making petty remarks about my username/
Now cower before my wrath mortal fool!
P.S talking of Pakistani textbooks do you still ask schoolchildren to "enumerate 8 differences between Hindus and Muslims" or "Describe why Hindus and Muslims can not live in the same country".
And then you ask for religious tolerance when you immigrate to the west.The irony.

5. Pakistan does not want the Taliban to take over Afghanistan -- it will only spell disaster for Pakistan -- they want a fragmented polity in Afghanistan that will be weak and consumed by internal bickering -- this seems to be self fulfilling prophecy given the way things are headed.

6. Further, in case his divineness, the godofwar has forgotten what the Taliban think of Pakistan, I would like to refer him to Mullah Zaeef's autobiography "My life with the Taliban" -- he states: “Pakistanis can get milk even from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody’s language; they use everybody, deceive everybody. They deceive the Arabs by using the name of Islam, they milk America in war against terrorism and they have been deceiving Pakistanis in the name of Kashmiris, but behind the curtain they have been betraying everyone". Taliban are no friends of Pakistan - there is no Afghan who is a friend of Pakistan (to their defense it seems there is no Afghan who is a friend of Afghanistan either -- lol)

I wonder if his divineness, the godofwar remembers that the Mujahadeen factions committed gross crimes against humanity -- rapes, mass killings, etc. -- The Norther Alliance that India supported grew out of these groups. One could argue that the Taliban's record on war crimes (minus the massacre of the Hazara people) was most times better than that of the Northern Alliance and that they brought some semblance of peace and admittedly a backward 7th century order to Afghanistan.

Even thought all regional hands are dirty where Afghanistan is concerned, The principal tormenters of Afghanistan are Afghans.

Ignoring more of the c u n t ish remarks, few sentences written in biography of one person do not represent anything substancial.
Ample proof of ISI-Taliban love affair has been presented already.If you choose to deny that even now, there is no use in discussing it any further.
Heres few to refresh your memory.

The Taliban's early victories in 1994 were followed by a series of defeats that resulted in heavy losses which led analysts to believe the Taliban movement had run its course. At that point Pakistan and Saudi Arabia drastically increased their support to the Taliban
THE MASSACRE IN MAZAR-I SHARIF
Pakistan: "The Taliban's Godfather"?

On August 1, 1997 the Taliban launched an attack on Sheberghan the main military base. The reason the attack was successful was due to 1500 Pakistani commandos taking part and that the Pakistani air force also gave support.
Clements, Frank (2003). Conflict in Afghanistan: a historical encyclopedia


A 1998 document by the U.S. State Department confirms that "20–40 percent of [regular] Taliban soldiers are Pakistani".
Pakistan: "The Taliban's Godfather"?

 

[Alphat]

@godofwar : Mate don't bother wasting your time on him, he is a lost cause, with plenty of time on his hand and his world revolves around hatred of Afghans. Just google his nickname, you will find loads of links where he has posted similar messages of hatred and venom against Afghans.

He thinks that Pakistan would be Sweden or Germany if only for these Afghans were not their neighbors
Last time I checked, which neighbour of Pakistan was happy with her, India is suffering because of Pakistan, Iran is complaining, even China the all weather friend is complaing of rats coming from Waziristan and creating chaos in China.

 

[godofwar]

@godofwar : Mate don't bother wasting your time on him, he is a lost cause, with plenty of time on his hand and his world revolves around hatred of Afghans. Just google his nickname, you will find loads of links where he has posted similar messages of hatred and venom against Afghans.

He thinks that Pakistan would be Sweden or Germany if only for these Afghans were not their neighbors
Last time I checked, which neighbour of Pakistan was happy with her, India is suffering because of Pakistan, Iran is complaining, even China the all weather friend is complaing of rats coming from Waziristan and creating chaos in China.

Only way to deal with a terrorist supporting state and terrorist sympathysing people is to build a big fence.Then these terrorists will turn on the people who created them.
India and Iran already doing it.You should do it too in the future /

 

[Alphat]

Actually I would have erected a similar wall that separates Israel from Palestinan let alone a fence, fence wont do it we need a wall Karzai is soft, we need someone like Amrullah Saleh at the top, an eye for an eye.

Will Afghanistan suffer because of any closure of the route from Pakistan, yes we will but that pales in comprasion to all these monster that they are breading and sending across the border. Majority of the trade is already being diverted to the Iranian and northern route, not cheap but will do. As a matter of fact Pakistani traders were in Kabul a week or so ago and were complaining that Afghans are increasingly using Iranian ports which is effecting their revenue streams. Pakistan establishment may think they have all the cards but facts seems to be otherwise, the monster they have created to bleed others has mutated and is biting back the master!!!

 

[nangyale]

Actually I would have erected a similar wall that separates Israel from Palestinan let alone a fence, fence wont do it we need a wall Karzai is soft, we need someone like Amrullah Saleh at the top, an eye for an eye.

Tell me who is going to pay for this glorious wall of yours? Afghanistan GDP can not even support the security forces the Westerners have built for you, I wonder where the billions will come for this wall that you want to build.
Also what do you want to do with the millions of Afghans living in Pakistan?

 

[nangyale]

If you are as you say a nobody, then how can you claim to say this was the "least of the worst choices"(lol wut ?) Pakistan could make.How about not supporting the terrorists? Is that option not even on the table ? :S
Do the Japanese use terrorism to take Senkaku Isles from China?Cuz we all know they would make the best terrorists.

The Senkaku/Diaoyu isles are actually being administered by Japan. Who do you want them to take them from. Think before you write, dude

Do I actually see defense of supporting terrorism from an american.Or are you a Pakistani who hasn't got green card yet
You are effectively saying Pakistan's support of Taliban is not a "big mistake".Lets see how this one works out for you.

So typical. When in doubt start shouting terra, terra.

 

[Alphat]

Tell me who is going to pay for this glorious wall of yours? Afghanistan GDP can not even support the security forces the Westerners have built for you, I wonder where the billions will come for this wall that you want to build.
Also what do you want to do with the millions of Afghans living in Pakistan?

Ashna:-

1) What Afghanistan need is a determined leadership at the top who has the courage to stand up to this terror machine coming across the border, you don't need billions what you need is to provide a clear definition of the ENEMY to the Afghan people which in this case is the Pakistani Establishment, once the enemy is identified then policies will be enacted accordingly and people can be mobilized.What Karzai is saying most of the time is self contradictory,sometimes he labels Pakistan a brother and the next day as an enemy, therefore a change in leadership is needed, please note we have no hatred of the common Pakistani but your Establishment is the enemy period. It is actively supporting elements over the last 10 years to subvert Afghanistan. Once Pakistan is marked as an enemy people will be forced to do whatever they have to make a fence, put landmines do whats needed, remember the great wall of China!! I remember pretty well when Dr Najib came out to Ariana square in Kabul stating that Jalalabad is being attacked by Afghan traitors with the assistance of Pakistani military, people were mobilized and suddenly the tide of the battle changed and the so called Mujahidden got such a beating with loads of them rotting on the streets.
Other commentators on this page will not understand but you as a Pakhtoon (an Afghan by blood) know this very well that once Afghans are shown a direction and a clear vision of the enemy then a far superior force matters not, we will bleed you and hurt you and don't give a damn about our losses. You really don't want an active AFGHAN enemy on your Border!!!

2) As for the Afghans in Pakistan, I would say that once you are termed as a hostile state, then those self respecting Afghans must leave your country immediately, those who don't you are most welcome to deport!!!

3) One thing that Pakistani Establishment forget that Afghanistan as a nation will not fragment we may have not a strong state at times and live a miserable life but we are very proud as a nation, just imagine this 30 years of war has not succeeded in fragmenting us, BUT can you say the same for Pakistan?? Half of Pakistan went away in 1971, there is an active insurgency going on in Fata, the Balouch want a separate homeland, Karachi is burning, can you really play this game of actively subverting Afghanistan any longer?? Remember we have nothing to lose....

 

[godofwar]

The Senkaku/Diaoyu isles are actually being administered by Japan. Who do you want them to take them from. Think before you write, dude



So typical. When in doubt start shouting terra, terra.

Do you have something pertinent to add to the discussion other than lazy platitudes ?
Is this pathetic attack on an admittedly weak hypothesis meant to shift the attention from the topic?
Why not make an attempt at answering the premise should Japan start terrorizing China to get political concessions? You know answer is not to your liking so you duck or deny it, no surprises there.
Try harder.

 

[nangyale]

Mate, I advised you to think before you hit the keyboard.
Look the ground reality is that the Japanese are administering the isles in question. Why on earth would they do terrorist attack on islands that they are controlling. What do you want them to do suicide bomb, empty rocks? You must be high.
The Chinese haven't taken anything by force or otherwise from the Japanese, the worst they have done is to fly some drones and move around in Maritime Surveillance Ships around some empty rocks that are claimed by both. But actually should be part of Taiwan.
The Japanese SDF is quite capable and if it ever comes to actual conflict they will be the one leading the way.

Do you have something pertinent to add to the discussion other than lazy platitudes ?
Is this pathetic attack on an admittedly weak hypothesis meant to shift the attention from the topic?
Why not make an attempt at answering the premise should Japan start terrorizing China to get political concessions? You know answer is not to your liking so you duck or deny it, no surprises there.
Try harder.

I hope you do understand the difference between insurgency (which is for the weak and or defeated) and war.
I hope this answers your query, now can we come back to the topic

 

[Armstrong]

@nangyale - You were saying wrror ?

Judging by the comments above do you still want me to believe 'once you sit down with them & explain it they're different' ?

 

[nangyale]

Gora Grana

Afghanistan and Pakistan shouldn't be enemies. They both have alot in common. The religion, culture and languages are common to both the countries. That's what I have been trying to explain to both Pakistanis and Afghans. Afghanistan's longest border is with Pakistan and Pakistan's with Afghanistan. Neither of them can be towed away to let's say the Caribbean or the Middle East no matter how much the hatters want. If the two work together they can dominate the whole of South/Central Asia as was done in the past.

Ashna:-

1) What Afghanistan need is a determined leadership at the top who has the courage to stand up to this terror machine coming across the border, you don't need billions what you need is to provide a clear definition of the ENEMY to the Afghan people which in this case is the Pakistani Establishment, once the enemy is identified then policies will be enacted accordingly and people can be mobilized.What Karzai is saying most of the time is self contradictory,sometimes he labels Pakistan a brother and the next day as an enemy, therefore a change in leadership is needed, please note we have no hatred of the common Pakistani but your Establishment is the enemy period. It is actively supporting elements over the last 10 years to subvert Afghanistan. Once Pakistan is marked as an enemy people will be forced to do whatever they have to make a fence, put landmines do whats needed, remember the great wall of China!! I remember pretty well when Dr Najib came out to Ariana square in Kabul stating that Jalalabad is being attacked by Afghan traitors with the assistance of Pakistani military, people were mobilized and suddenly the tide of the battle changed and the so called Mujahidden got such a beating with loads of them rotting on the streets.
Other commentators on this page will not understand but you as a Pakhtoon (an Afghan by blood) know this very well that once Afghans are shown a direction and a clear vision of the enemy then a far superior force matters not, we will bleed you and hurt you and don't give a damn about our losses. You really don't want an active AFGHAN enemy on your Border!!!

Afghanistan should not be backward and a conflict zone forever, we don't want international players to come and settle their scores with Afghan blood. And I disagree that the Pakistan establishment is a problem for Afghanistan, their is no point in having an enemy next door, especially one with which you have to meet everyday. It's in the interest of the Pakistani people and government to have a stable and prosperous Afghanistan along with Pakistan. There has been conflict in the past as Pakistan and Afghanistan were in the opposite blocs during the cold war years.
But I will say is that if you are upset about Pakistani conduct during the cold war, then you should have the same opinion about the US, Saudi Arabia and others as well, what amazes me is that the old Shoravyan of Afghanistan are best pals with the turbo-capitalists today, is that stupidity or opportunism.
As for the last decade is concerned it is actually an Afghan insurgency, the worst Pakistan would have done is to not apprehend the insurgency's leadership. But on the other hand they have provided intelligence and land-routes to the Western Alliance as well. So overall the Pakistani impact on the conflict would be neutral. As it has probably supported both the parties to the Afghan conflict. I would call it hedging your bets.

2) As for the Afghans in Pakistan, I would say that once you are termed as a hostile state, then those self respecting Afghans must leave your country immediately, those who don't you are most welcome to deport!!! .

To this I would say that, lar o bar Pukhtoon yav de. Don't try to create enmity and walls of hatred. Work towards peace and reconciliation.

3) One thing that Pakistani Establishment forget that Afghanistan as a nation will not fragment we may have not a strong state at times and live a miserable life but we are very proud as a nation, just imagine this 30 years of war has not succeeded in fragmenting us, BUT can you say the same for Pakistan?? Half of Pakistan went away in 1971, there is an active insurgency going on in Fata, the Balouch want a separate homeland, Karachi is burning, can you really play this game of actively subverting Afghanistan any longer?? Remember we have nothing to lose....

Again their is no point in celebrating the misery and hardship be that in Afghanistan or Pakistan. The foreigners are on their way out, but the Pakistanis and Afghans have to live with each other.
If Karachi is burning, it should be cause of concern for Afghanistan as a lot of Afghans work there and it's the port for most of Afghanistan's imports and exports.
If there is insurgency in Balochistan, and somehow they succeed then they will ask Afghanistan for the Baloch land as well. Remember there are Balochs in Afghanistan too.
If America is droning FATA or there are bomb attack in Pakhtonkhwa then as you explained it's Afghan blood that is being spilled.

@nangyale - You were saying wrror ?

Judging by the comments above do you still want me to believe 'once you sit down with them & explain it they're different' ?

As long there is life there is hope.

I believe in reconciliation, two brotherly countries living in peace and harmony and helping each other.
I am totally against building walls of hatred.

 

[Armstrong]

To this I would say that, lar o bar Pukhtoon yav de. Don't try to create enmity and walls of hatred. Work towards peace and reconciliation.

You lost me there wrror....you lost me there !

Lar Pukhtoon - My Family & whatever is mine is theres - No question about that !

Bar Pukhtoon - They can go foOk themselves for all I care !

As long there is life there is hope.

I believe in reconciliation, two brotherly countries living in peace and harmony and helping each other.
I am totally against building walls of hatred.

How about some realism instead ?

How about transcending parochial ethnic affiliations for once ?

They are not our 'brothers' - They have never been our brothers long before Mullah Omar was even born !

 

[godofwar]

Mate, I advised you to think before you hit the keyboard.
Look the ground reality is that the Japanese are administering the isles in question. Why on earth would they do terrorist attack on islands that they are controlling. What do you want them to do suicide bomb, empty rocks? You must be high.
The Chinese haven't taken anything by force or otherwise from the Japanese, the worst they have done is to fly some drones and move around in Maritime Surveillance Ships around some empty rocks that are claimed by both. But actually should be part of Taiwan.
The Japanese SDF is quite capable and if it ever comes to actual conflict they will be the one leading the way.


I hope you do understand the difference between insurgency (which is for the weak and or defeated) and war.
I hope this answers your query, now can we come back to the topic

Let me put in simple terms so even you can understand.Instead of literally talking about Japan and China and any conflict that may or may not take place, I was inquiring is it a good idea for a weak(er) nation to impose its political will on a strong(er) adversary using terrorism ?

You took one poorly worded hypothetical example and made a meal out of it.Kudos to you.
Hopefully you will stop detracting the thread with this Japan China nonsense now.

 

[nangyale]

You lost me there wrror....you lost me there !

Lar Pukhtoon - My Family & whatever is mine is theres - No question about that !

Bar Pukhtoon - They can go foOk themselves for all I care !



How about some realism instead ?

How about transcending parochial ethnic affiliations for once ?

They are not our 'brothers' - They have never been our brothers long before Mullah Omar was even born !

Zama rora

I understand your passion. and also see your point that some Afghans haven't been the best of friends of Pakistan, they have created problems for Pakistan before and some are doing it today. But that shouldn't stop us from looking at all the positives that we can achieve once we have a stable and prosperous Afghanistan.
It's not about Mullah Omar or any other individual but it's about people of both countries. Look at the map of Pakistan and tell me which country has the most in common with Pakistan in the neighborhood?

 

[Armstrong]

Zama rora

I understand your passion. and also see your point that some Afghans haven't been the best of friends of Pakistan, they have created problems for Pakistan before and some are doing it today. But that shouldn't stop us from looking at all the positives that we can achieve once we have a stable and prosperous Afghanistan.
It's not about Mullah Omar or any other individual but it's about people of both countries. Look at the map of Pakistan and tell me which country has the most in common with Pakistan in the neighborhood?

Rora, in your love for your fellow man, marvaaaa na deinaaaa !

I don't fancy being duped into another Refugee Issue or Increased Terrorism by opening our gates & embracing our Brothers from across the Durand Line; Brothers, mind you, who hate us !