Germans may find it hard to sell their subs to India..

[janon]

@janon the torturous path was due to the difficulty of absorbing the state of the art tech. on the MDL's part. I strongly feel that IN will indeed go for Larger scorpene due to following points:

1. Since MDL has already absorbed the tech. of scorpenes, it would find very easy to build larger subs of these types in quicker time considering the needs of IN.

2. DCNS has now a proven AIP in MESMA.

3. For Brahmos - There was a video Posted by @sancho which demonstrated as to how DCNS has achieved success in land attack & anti-ac capability, launching missiles from torpedo tubes, if not they can even offer a VLS in the subs which will require adding another section for Brahmos Vertical launch.

4. DCNS has a tie-up with Pipavav Shipyard which in turn has tie-up with MDL, this will make the future transfer of tech. much easier than the current case of P-75.

I think @sancho will be the right person to elaborate further.

I was under the impression that two scorpenes were supposed to be delivered directly from france. But no, all of them are being built by MDL. So then it is possible that the delays are only due to MDL's inability to absorb tech fast. I think the navy had asked for two subs to be made in france, to expedite deliveries. Or maybe that was for P-75I.

Now why is the cost of P-75I close to 12 billion dollars? Especially if it is an enlarged scorpene, and we have already paid for most of the tech transfer, why would we pay 12 billion for 6 subs? That makes it 2 billion dollars per sub, in the same ballpark as a Virginia class nuclear sub!

Also, what happened to the AIP system developed by DRDO? Do they plan to fit that on the present scorpenes or the P-75I? Or will they go for MESMA?

 

[Sergi]

do all modern subs have seven bladed motors

You mean rotors right ???

+ is this a "Navy submarine" or "private one "???

 

[arp2041]

I was under the impression that two scorpenes were supposed to be delivered directly from france. But no, all of them are being built by MDL. So then it is possible that the delays are only due to MDL's inability to absorb tech fast. I think the navy had asked for two subs to be made in france, to expedite deliveries. Or maybe that was for P-75I.

2 subs directly from the OEM for P-75I & 3 to be build at MDL & 1 at HSL.

Now why is the cost of P-75I close to 12 billion dollars? Especially if it is an enlarged scorpene, and we have already paid for most of the tech transfer, why would we pay 12 billion for 6 subs? That makes it 2 billion dollars per sub, in the same ballpark as a Virginia class nuclear sub!

Buddy, $12 billion is estimated cost, we still don't have the final contract, nor is S-80 finalized yet.

It will be much different than the current scorpenes being built - VLS + AIP + much more tonnage

Also, what happened to the AIP system developed by DRDO? Do they plan to fit that on the present scorpenes or the P-75I? Or will they go for MESMA?

DRDO is working on it's own AIP & IN has said that if they are able to make it before the last 2 subs hull fabrication starts, they will integrate it with the AIP of DRDO otherwise all 6 will be non-AIP subs, not sure about MESMA integration though.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm pretty sure the French have got the P-75I in the bag. It makes no sense to operate two radically different SSKs in such small quantities within the same fleet. I'm sure the IN have understood that.

 

[sancho]

With such delays, will the IN want to go for scorpenes again? Also, are they as advanced as some of the other designs out there? And can the larger scorpenes fire the brahmos? (I think that's a requirement for the P-75I.)

If it will bring a lot of commonality and consequent cost savings, I am all for it though. However, French hardware tends to be expensive, both platforms and weapons.

The fact that we already licence produce the Scorpene is a major advantage, not a disadvantage. The production might have gone into delays, but still is on the run, while a licence production of a Russian or German sub would be a complete new one and the fact that we couldn't build additional U209s with the initial licence production in India shows, that it would be a bad idea to waste the already gathered know how and experience and start all over again.
If the Russians or Germans want to win, they have to offer something special, otherwise additional Scorpenes are most likely!

The competition requires land attack capability and AIP, but not Brahmos or vertical launchers. Brahmos is just an additional offer, mainly from the Brahmos company, but since it would be Brahmos VLS or AIP propulsion, the chances are very small for such an option. More likely is, that the subs are offered with torpedo tube launched missiles like the Klub S (that we already operate on Kilo class subs), or the naval Scalp cruise missiles that the French are integrating into their SSNs right now (not sure what the Germans offer though).
Yes, French goodies are capable and come with good ToT/offset packages, but for sure had their downside in the costs. But you get what you pay for right?

P.S. On topic,

the problems with the early U214s were solved in S. Korea and in Greece. The latter were also caused by Greece as a reason not to pay the subs for some time, since they lacked the money for it. In 2010 Greece accepted the subs and ordered even 2 additional once, just like S. Korea later ordered more of them, which should tell us something about the quality of the sub and possibly problems.

 

[deep hacker here]

how about secret virginia sub if u are interested then leave a reply i wanna know how many aree interested
WHO KNOWS WHAT INDIA BUYS INSIDE

 

[Capt.Popeye]

You mean rotors right ???

+ is this a "Navy submarine" or "private one "???

That Gentlemen; is called a "Propellor" or a "Screw". The number of highly skewed blades that you see reduces the cavitation and hence the noise.
And it is a Naval Sub.

 

[Rain]

This noise about German subs seems to be created by some Paid Agents to get the deal killed before its inception.
Lets see how many fall for it.

 

[sancho]

This noise about German subs seems to be created by some Paid Agents to get the deal killed before its inception.
Lets see how many fall for it.

That's what I thought as well, when I read the article, which basically sums up older reports which are available on wiki and is refering to unnamed sources.
However, as I said earlier, the Germans must offer something big / a game changer to seal the deal, because the French have most of the advantages on their side this time. A co-developed U216 would be such a game changer and still my prefered choice, since we can still add some more Scorpenes to the production line, while the U216 in higher numbers could be the long term solution.
The U216 is also based on the U212, which is much more advanced than the U214 and offers capabilities that makes it even more interesting to IN, like a new advanced AIP propulsion, VLS for Brahmos Lite or Nirbhay missiles, IDAS defence systems and advances naval sensors. A joint development like the Germans did it with the Italians for the U212 would be perfect for both sides, but such big arms deals with Germany are always difficult because of the public and certain laws.

 

[Sergi]

That Gentlemen; is called a "Propellor" or a "Screw". The number of highly skewed blades that you see reduces the cavitation and hence the noise.
And it is a Naval Sub.

As I said in another thread captain, I am NOT an expert in these things thanks for correction.

And would you plz tell me more about that sub ???

 

[JohnSeb]

Good thing is that we can get the most advanced military systems, most countries are flocking around to sell their latest stuff

 

[Rain]

so you people want to use these performance issues to milk the German a little more.
nice try Mon Ami.

 

[kurup]

As I said in another thread captain, I am NOT an expert in these things thanks for correction.

And would you plz tell me more about that sub ???

Type 214 developed by HDW , Germany and is an export variant of Type 212.

The sub in the picture is Papanikolis U214 of Greece .

Type 214 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sancho]

so you people want to use these performance issues to milk the German a little more.
nice try Mon Ami.

Depends on who is behind the article, could be some competitors as well don't you think?

Type 214 developed by HDW , Germany and is an export variant of Type 212.[/url]

Export varient of the U212 is not exactly correct, since the U214 might have some techs and capabilities of it, but the design is based on the older U209, which IN operates as well.