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French Fighter Jets Show Modi Can’t Make Everything in India

Windjammer

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For Prime Minister Narendra Modi, neither option was great: Continue negotiations with France on a fighter jet deal he couldn’t afford, or go for a smaller agreement that could undermine his “Make in India” policy.

Last week in Paris, Modi shelved plans to buy 126 Rafale warplanes from Dassault Aviation SA, a contract that would’ve seen 108 built in India. Instead he asked for 36 French-made fighter jets to quickly replenish the air force’s aging fleet.

The move to all but kill India’s biggest defense purchase in five decades reflects the dire state of both the nation’s armed forces and its manufacturing capabilities. How Modi responds will determine his ability to win investment and create jobs for the millions who voted him into power last year.


“You have to give Modi credit for being pragmatic, for being a problem solver,” saidHarsh V. Pant, a South Asia security expert in the defense studies department at King’s College London. “He could’ve been ideological about this. He could’ve said it’s going to give a bad name to my Make in India initiative so I’m not going to deliver on this deal and we’ll wait and renegotiate.”

Modi has vowed to reinvent the world’s largest arms importer into a cutting-edge manufacturer to rival China, which debuted its newest stealth fighter in November. He raised the foreign ownership cap in the defense sector to 49 percent and cleared about $40 billion of arms procurement proposals -- roughly four times more than the previous year -- in a blitz spanning heavy guns to submarines.

$150 Billion
He’s also planning to spend $150 billion through 2027 to modernize India’s military, and wants to build up its domestic production as part of that. Just two months ago, Modi said the defense sector was “at the heart” of his plan to create manufacturing jobs.

The fighter jet purchase dates back to 2007, when India first called for bids that included technology transfer as it looked to build up its local defense industry. Five years later, it picked Dassault over rivals such as Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB for a contract priced at about $11 billion to build 126 warplanes.

Talks Stall
Talks have since stalled over pricing and a requirement for Dassault to assume liability for the 108 jets due to be built under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The state-run company, which has a near monopoly on India’s aerospace industry, has been plagued by quality problems; its indigenous Tejas fighter jet took more than 20 years to develop.

“These torturous negotiations were going on, and meanwhile the air force required these aircraft urgently,” said R.K. Sawhney, a former director general of military intelligence. “If the present government had carried on stalling, it certainly would have affected our operational preparedness.”

With no solution in sight, Modi asked French President Francois Hollande to help deliver French-made jets in a government-to-government deal as soon as possible given their “critical operational necessity,” according to a statement after the leaders met on April 10. While terms of the deal weren’t disclosed, the 36 Rafale jets will take at least two years to deliver.

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will travel to India in a few weeks to negotiate the contract for 36 fighter jets and check on the status of the other 126, according to a French official who asked not to be identified due to government rules. France believes the original agreement hasn’t been canceled, the official said.

‘Steep Slope’
France’s defense ministry declined to comment. A Dassault spokesman also had no comment when reached by phone.

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters on April 13 that buying 126 Rafales would be “financially a steep slope to climb,” according to the Press Trust of India. Future deals would be government-to-government only, he said, without committing to a requirement for them to be made in India.

Modi has several options. He could orchestrate another jet sale that includes private companies to either replace or complement Hindustan Aeronautics, according to Manmohan Bahadur, a retired air force vice marshal.

Potential suitors could include the Mahindra Group or the Tata Group, among two of India’s biggest companies. Dassault also signed an agreement in 2012 to explore defense projects jointly with Reliance Industries Ltd., the oil-refining giant controlled by Indian billionaire Mukesh Ambani.

Even so, finding an alternative to Hindustan Aeronautics to make one of the world’s most advanced fighter jets may be even more difficult than trying to overhaul the company, said Justin Bronk at London’s Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies.

‘Not Ready’
“They’re just not ready at all to produce a fighter jet of this complexity,” Bronk said. “It’s a loss for the Indian economy if they don’t get a revised deal to produce in India.”

The air force wants new war planes to defend the north, where it has territorial disputes with both Pakistan and China. Now it’s taking older aircraft out of service more quickly than new ones are being inducted.

India’s defence ministry had allocated 26 billion rupees ($417 million) to buy new aircraft for the fiscal year through next March. Similar war planes usually cost about $100 million apiece, according to Siemon Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

While the 36-jet deal shows “weakness,” it’s likely that India will again buy more fighter jets from Dassault at some point, Wezeman said. “India has bought itself some time to find a solution. But that gap in its air defences is only going to get bigger and something needs to be done.”

French Fighter Jets Show Modi Can’t Make Everything in India - Bloomberg Business
 
“They’re just not ready at all to produce a fighter jet of this complexity,” Bronk said.

Lol

The state-run company, which has a near monopoly on India’s aerospace industry, has been plagued by quality problems; its indigenous Tejas fighter jet took more than 20 years to develop

Another Joke LCA is NOT an HAL developed aircraft
 
No body want to make everything in India. No country make everything in their own country. 36 planes were not viable for production. Had it been a case of 126 plane, they would certainly have been made in India.
Missed some......

''Talks have since stalled over pricing and a requirement for Dassault to assume liability for the 108 jets due to be built under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The state-run company, which has a near monopoly on India’s aerospace industry, has been plagued by quality problems; its indigenous Tejas fighter jet took more than 20 years to develop''.

Lol



Another Joke LCA is NOT an HAL developed aircraft
National origin India
Manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL)
Design group Aeronautical Development Agency
First flight 4 January 2001
 
No country can make everything itself. It's also akin to trying to re-invent the wheel.

Did you know that the Soviet Union a super power in the 70s, even imported American made oil filters for its TATRA trucks? And guess who's using Russian rockets for supplies to the ISS? Except for the Space Shuttle which is now in the museum, the Americans have no rockets of their own for the job. And NASA doesn't intend making any either! They have to depend on other countries now on.

And then look at the F-35 fighter. It was not viable to make the fighter fully in America due to technology requirements as well as the enormous finances involved. There are 35 sub contractors all over the US and Europe for the manufacturer, Lockheed Martin.

So, you need to say the same thing for Russia as well as the US that they can't make everything in their own countries like Modi can't make everything in India!
 
For Prime Minister Narendra Modi, neither option was great: Continue negotiations with France on a fighter jet deal he couldn’t afford, or go for a smaller agreement that could undermine his “Make in India” policy.

Last week in Paris, Modi shelved plans to buy 126 Rafale warplanes from Dassault Aviation SA, a contract that would’ve seen 108 built in India. Instead he asked for 36 French-made fighter jets to quickly replenish the air force’s aging fleet.

The move to all but kill India’s biggest defense purchase in five decades reflects the dire state of both the nation’s armed forces and its manufacturing capabilities. How Modi responds will determine his ability to win investment and create jobs for the millions who voted him into power last year.


“You have to give Modi credit for being pragmatic, for being a problem solver,” saidHarsh V. Pant, a South Asia security expert in the defense studies department at King’s College London. “He could’ve been ideological about this. He could’ve said it’s going to give a bad name to my Make in India initiative so I’m not going to deliver on this deal and we’ll wait and renegotiate.”

Modi has vowed to reinvent the world’s largest arms importer into a cutting-edge manufacturer to rival China, which debuted its newest stealth fighter in November. He raised the foreign ownership cap in the defense sector to 49 percent and cleared about $40 billion of arms procurement proposals -- roughly four times more than the previous year -- in a blitz spanning heavy guns to submarines.

$150 Billion
He’s also planning to spend $150 billion through 2027 to modernize India’s military, and wants to build up its domestic production as part of that. Just two months ago, Modi said the defense sector was “at the heart” of his plan to create manufacturing jobs.

The fighter jet purchase dates back to 2007, when India first called for bids that included technology transfer as it looked to build up its local defense industry. Five years later, it picked Dassault over rivals such as Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB for a contract priced at about $11 billion to build 126 warplanes.

Talks Stall
Talks have since stalled over pricing and a requirement for Dassault to assume liability for the 108 jets due to be built under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The state-run company, which has a near monopoly on India’s aerospace industry, has been plagued by quality problems; its indigenous Tejas fighter jet took more than 20 years to develop.

“These torturous negotiations were going on, and meanwhile the air force required these aircraft urgently,” said R.K. Sawhney, a former director general of military intelligence. “If the present government had carried on stalling, it certainly would have affected our operational preparedness.”

With no solution in sight, Modi asked French President Francois Hollande to help deliver French-made jets in a government-to-government deal as soon as possible given their “critical operational necessity,” according to a statement after the leaders met on April 10. While terms of the deal weren’t disclosed, the 36 Rafale jets will take at least two years to deliver.

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will travel to India in a few weeks to negotiate the contract for 36 fighter jets and check on the status of the other 126, according to a French official who asked not to be identified due to government rules. France believes the original agreement hasn’t been canceled, the official said.

‘Steep Slope’
France’s defense ministry declined to comment. A Dassault spokesman also had no comment when reached by phone.

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters on April 13 that buying 126 Rafales would be “financially a steep slope to climb,” according to the Press Trust of India. Future deals would be government-to-government only, he said, without committing to a requirement for them to be made in India.

Modi has several options. He could orchestrate another jet sale that includes private companies to either replace or complement Hindustan Aeronautics, according to Manmohan Bahadur, a retired air force vice marshal.

Potential suitors could include the Mahindra Group or the Tata Group, among two of India’s biggest companies. Dassault also signed an agreement in 2012 to explore defense projects jointly with Reliance Industries Ltd., the oil-refining giant controlled by Indian billionaire Mukesh Ambani.

Even so, finding an alternative to Hindustan Aeronautics to make one of the world’s most advanced fighter jets may be even more difficult than trying to overhaul the company, said Justin Bronk at London’s Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies.

‘Not Ready’
“They’re just not ready at all to produce a fighter jet of this complexity,” Bronk said. “It’s a loss for the Indian economy if they don’t get a revised deal to produce in India.”

The air force wants new war planes to defend the north, where it has territorial disputes with both Pakistan and China. Now it’s taking older aircraft out of service more quickly than new ones are being inducted.

India’s defence ministry had allocated 26 billion rupees ($417 million) to buy new aircraft for the fiscal year through next March. Similar war planes usually cost about $100 million apiece, according to Siemon Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

While the 36-jet deal shows “weakness,” it’s likely that India will again buy more fighter jets from Dassault at some point, Wezeman said. “India has bought itself some time to find a solution. But that gap in its air defences is only going to get bigger and something needs to be done.”

French Fighter Jets Show Modi Can’t Make Everything in India - Bloomberg Business

Lol the thing is not why India bought only 36 for now but why we dint go for another fighter other than Rafale even though it's costlier than its competitors. :D And our neighbours get happy when ever they see some biased but hurt presstitutes do their thing . POINT FINGER !!! LOL It's understandable .They can fool them self for a few minutes forgetting all their inability to even look in the eyes of Indians .

Brian farts usually happens due to the gas created inside stomach after stomach burning . You can't blame them you see . Every day news is like India achieved this and that and their part of world is not that good. If I may say can't get worst than this. Every one threatens etc. Again LOL enjoy the show ..

COMING BAVK TO THIS author who totally forgot a point. He seems to be clueless. How can anyone Make everything in their country ? Who does name a single country even the superpowers. Answer is none. Because Make In India initiatives are not to make everything in India . Rafale deal is concerned , Why Rafale why not 4 Europeans jet ? Answer is simple they lost it the french . On at least for our requirements and what we want. This 36 fighter not only just bought of the shelf but in this 6 billion dollar deal which includes 30% minimum offset as per French president HOLLANDE himself . That would be 2 billion dollar investment back in India . Now when we take rest of the other deals like French ToT in nuclear technology and Railway infrastructure and lines . This deal brings more charms than this moron talks about . First we will get best and advanced Fighter jet in whole of Asia . And yes mistakes were made by previous Indian Govt so fleet need some steroid boost . Which what this deal brings to India . Sooner or later few white nations will go crazy . As we look closer India already omitting Britain . Look what happen till now . Our Prime minister visited Germany , France and ever Canada an American Continent but not British . Why ? Because British are proper twats and bullies with ever shrinking economies . They force 2 billion Pounds of Aid to India even when Their own people crying for spend that money on UKs beggars , medicare pension scheme etc. And don't forget India stated it as peanuts and said no to it . But again what happened was funny. They thought by giving 2 billion aid they could get MMRCA deal lol. That's what they said .

Cry cry till you get bored and move on :rofl: We are happy with what ever we can make in India . Poor Indians will now have to get ready for more than 100+ billions USD pouring into the country .

Why ?


Just to MAKE IN INDIA :flame:

For Prime Minister Narendra Modi, neither option was great: Continue negotiations with France on a fighter jet deal he couldn’t afford, or go for a smaller agreement that could undermine his “Make in India” policy.

Last week in Paris, Modi shelved plans to buy 126 Rafale warplanes from Dassault Aviation SA, a contract that would’ve seen 108 built in India. Instead he asked for 36 French-made fighter jets to quickly replenish the air force’s aging fleet.

The move to all but kill India’s biggest defense purchase in five decades reflects the dire state of both the nation’s armed forces and its manufacturing capabilities. How Modi responds will determine his ability to win investment and create jobs for the millions who voted him into power last year.


“You have to give Modi credit for being pragmatic, for being a problem solver,” saidHarsh V. Pant, a South Asia security expert in the defense studies department at King’s College London. “He could’ve been ideological about this. He could’ve said it’s going to give a bad name to my Make in India initiative so I’m not going to deliver on this deal and we’ll wait and renegotiate.”

Modi has vowed to reinvent the world’s largest arms importer into a cutting-edge manufacturer to rival China, which debuted its newest stealth fighter in November. He raised the foreign ownership cap in the defense sector to 49 percent and cleared about $40 billion of arms procurement proposals -- roughly four times more than the previous year -- in a blitz spanning heavy guns to submarines.

$150 Billion
He’s also planning to spend $150 billion through 2027 to modernize India’s military, and wants to build up its domestic production as part of that. Just two months ago, Modi said the defense sector was “at the heart” of his plan to create manufacturing jobs.

The fighter jet purchase dates back to 2007, when India first called for bids that included technology transfer as it looked to build up its local defense industry. Five years later, it picked Dassault over rivals such as Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB for a contract priced at about $11 billion to build 126 warplanes.

Talks Stall
Talks have since stalled over pricing and a requirement for Dassault to assume liability for the 108 jets due to be built under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The state-run company, which has a near monopoly on India’s aerospace industry, has been plagued by quality problems; its indigenous Tejas fighter jet took more than 20 years to develop.

“These torturous negotiations were going on, and meanwhile the air force required these aircraft urgently,” said R.K. Sawhney, a former director general of military intelligence. “If the present government had carried on stalling, it certainly would have affected our operational preparedness.”

With no solution in sight, Modi asked French President Francois Hollande to help deliver French-made jets in a government-to-government deal as soon as possible given their “critical operational necessity,” according to a statement after the leaders met on April 10. While terms of the deal weren’t disclosed, the 36 Rafale jets will take at least two years to deliver.

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will travel to India in a few weeks to negotiate the contract for 36 fighter jets and check on the status of the other 126, according to a French official who asked not to be identified due to government rules. France believes the original agreement hasn’t been canceled, the official said.

‘Steep Slope’
France’s defense ministry declined to comment. A Dassault spokesman also had no comment when reached by phone.

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters on April 13 that buying 126 Rafales would be “financially a steep slope to climb,” according to the Press Trust of India. Future deals would be government-to-government only, he said, without committing to a requirement for them to be made in India.

Modi has several options. He could orchestrate another jet sale that includes private companies to either replace or complement Hindustan Aeronautics, according to Manmohan Bahadur, a retired air force vice marshal.

Potential suitors could include the Mahindra Group or the Tata Group, among two of India’s biggest companies. Dassault also signed an agreement in 2012 to explore defense projects jointly with Reliance Industries Ltd., the oil-refining giant controlled by Indian billionaire Mukesh Ambani.

Even so, finding an alternative to Hindustan Aeronautics to make one of the world’s most advanced fighter jets may be even more difficult than trying to overhaul the company, said Justin Bronk at London’s Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies.

‘Not Ready’
“They’re just not ready at all to produce a fighter jet of this complexity,” Bronk said. “It’s a loss for the Indian economy if they don’t get a revised deal to produce in India.”

The air force wants new war planes to defend the north, where it has territorial disputes with both Pakistan and China. Now it’s taking older aircraft out of service more quickly than new ones are being inducted.

India’s defence ministry had allocated 26 billion rupees ($417 million) to buy new aircraft for the fiscal year through next March. Similar war planes usually cost about $100 million apiece, according to Siemon Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

While the 36-jet deal shows “weakness,” it’s likely that India will again buy more fighter jets from Dassault at some point, Wezeman said. “India has bought itself some time to find a solution. But that gap in its air defences is only going to get bigger and something needs to be done.”

French Fighter Jets Show Modi Can’t Make Everything in India - Bloomberg Business

Lol the thing is not why India bought only 36 for now but why we dint go for another fighter other than Rafale even though it's costlier than its competitors. :D And our neighbours get happy when ever they see some biased but hurt presstitutes do their thing . POINT FINGER !!! LOL It's understandable .They can fool them self for a few minutes forgetting all their inability to even look in the eyes of Indians .

Brian farts usually happens due to the gas created inside stomach after stomach burning . You can't blame them you see . Every day news is like India achieved this and that and their part of world is not that good. If I may say can't get worst than this. Every one threatens etc. Again LOL enjoy the show ..

COMING BAVK TO THIS author who totally forgot a point. He seems to be clueless. How can anyone Make everything in their country ? Who does name a single country even the superpowers. Answer is none. Because Make In India initiatives are not to make everything in India . Rafale deal is concerned , Why Rafale why not 4 Europeans jet ? Answer is simple they lost it the french . On at least for our requirements and what we want. This 36 fighter not only just bought of the shelf but in this 6 billion dollar deal which includes 30% minimum offset as per French president HOLLANDE himself . That would be 2 billion dollar investment back in India . Now when we take rest of the other deals like French ToT in nuclear technology and Railway infrastructure and lines . This deal brings more charms than this moron talks about . First we will get best and advanced Fighter jet in whole of Asia . And yes mistakes were made by previous Indian Govt so fleet need some steroid boost . Which what this deal brings to India . Sooner or later few white nations will go crazy . As we look closer India already omitting Britain . Look what happen till now . Our Prime minister visited Germany , France and ever Canada an American Continent but not British . Why ? Because British are proper twats and bullies with ever shrinking economies . They force 2 billion Pounds of Aid to India even when Their own people crying for spend that money on UKs beggars , medicare pension scheme etc. And don't forget India stated it as peanuts and said no to it . But again what happened was funny. They thought by giving 2 billion aid they could get MMRCA deal lol. That's what they said .

Cry cry till you get bored and move on :rofl: We are happy with what ever we can make in India . Poor Indians will now have to get ready for more than 100+ billions USD pouring into the country .

Why ?


Just to MAKE IN INDIA :flame:
 
We all know Modi can't 'Make Everything In India', but he's and will be successful in bringing many projects under 'Make In India' scheme. While we all know what made @Windjammer so excited to post this, I can say Modi's way of dealing with French govt directly for Rafale jets is best for India & IAF and bad for our neighbours...and we Indians are happy about it.
 
We all know Modi can't 'Make Everything In India', but he's and will be successful in bringing many projects under 'Make In India' scheme. While we all know what made @Windjammer so excited to post this, I can say Modi's way of dealing with French govt directly for Rafale jets is best for India & IAF and bad for our neighbours...and we Indians are happy about it.

Haha !!! You are very cruel bursting his bubble !!! :D

The implications of Make In India programme will be not just good but awesome . In whole new levels . Growing economy , low inflation , cheaper loans upto 10 lac for all young youths to do business ... much much more . And don't forget we yet to open our weapons for the export .
 
Lol the thing is not why India bought only 36 for now but why we dint go for another fighter other than Rafale even though it's costlier than its competitors. :D And our neighbours get happy when ever they see some biased but hurt presstitutes do their thing . POINT FINGER !!! LOL It's understandable .They can fool them self for a few minutes forgetting all their inability to even look in the eyes of Indians .

Brian farts usually happens due to the gas created inside stomach after stomach burning . You can't blame them you see . Every day news is like India achieved this and that and their part of world is not that good. If I may say can't get worst than this. Every one threatens etc. Again LOL enjoy the show ..

COMING BAVK TO THIS author who totally forgot a point. He seems to be clueless. How can anyone Make everything in their country ? Who does name a single country even the superpowers. Answer is none. Because Make In India initiatives are not to make everything in India . Rafale deal is concerned , Why Rafale why not 4 Europeans jet ? Answer is simple they lost it the french . On at least for our requirements and what we want. This 36 fighter not only just bought of the shelf but in this 6 billion dollar deal which includes 30% minimum offset as per French president HOLLANDE himself . That would be 2 billion dollar investment back in India . Now when we take rest of the other deals like French ToT in nuclear technology and Railway infrastructure and lines . This deal brings more charms than this moron talks about . First we will get best and advanced Fighter jet in whole of Asia . And yes mistakes were made by previous Indian Govt so fleet need some steroid boost . Which what this deal brings to India . Sooner or later few white nations will go crazy . As we look closer India already omitting Britain . Look what happen till now . Our Prime minister visited Germany , France and ever Canada an American Continent but not British . Why ? Because British are proper twats and bullies with ever shrinking economies . They force 2 billion Pounds of Aid to India even when Their own people crying for spend that money on UKs beggars , medicare pension scheme etc. And don't forget India stated it as peanuts and said no to it . But again what happened was funny. They thought by giving 2 billion aid they could get MMRCA deal lol. That's what they said .

Cry cry till you get bored and move on :rofl: We are happy with what ever we can make in India . Poor Indians will now have to get ready for more than 100+ billions USD pouring into the country .

Why ?


Just to MAKE IN INDIA :flame:



Lol the thing is not why India bought only 36 for now but why we dint go for another fighter other than Rafale even though it's costlier than its competitors. :D And our neighbours get happy when ever they see some biased but hurt presstitutes do their thing . POINT FINGER !!! LOL It's understandable .They can fool them self for a few minutes forgetting all their inability to even look in the eyes of Indians .

Brian farts usually happens due to the gas created inside stomach after stomach burning . You can't blame them you see . Every day news is like India achieved this and that and their part of world is not that good. If I may say can't get worst than this. Every one threatens etc. Again LOL enjoy the show ..

COMING BAVK TO THIS author who totally forgot a point. He seems to be clueless. How can anyone Make everything in their country ? Who does name a single country even the superpowers. Answer is none. Because Make In India initiatives are not to make everything in India . Rafale deal is concerned , Why Rafale why not 4 Europeans jet ? Answer is simple they lost it the french . On at least for our requirements and what we want. This 36 fighter not only just bought of the shelf but in this 6 billion dollar deal which includes 30% minimum offset as per French president HOLLANDE himself . That would be 2 billion dollar investment back in India . Now when we take rest of the other deals like French ToT in nuclear technology and Railway infrastructure and lines . This deal brings more charms than this moron talks about . First we will get best and advanced Fighter jet in whole of Asia . And yes mistakes were made by previous Indian Govt so fleet need some steroid boost . Which what this deal brings to India . Sooner or later few white nations will go crazy . As we look closer India already omitting Britain . Look what happen till now . Our Prime minister visited Germany , France and ever Canada an American Continent but not British . Why ? Because British are proper twats and bullies with ever shrinking economies . They force 2 billion Pounds of Aid to India even when Their own people crying for spend that money on UKs beggars , medicare pension scheme etc. And don't forget India stated it as peanuts and said no to it . But again what happened was funny. They thought by giving 2 billion aid they could get MMRCA deal lol. That's what they said .

Cry cry till you get bored and move on :rofl: We are happy with what ever we can make in India . Poor Indians will now have to get ready for more than 100+ billions USD pouring into the country .

Why ?


Just to MAKE IN INDIA :flame:

Now what has this got to do with India's neighbours, neither author or the print media is Pakistani but the fact you are acting like an armature turned giddy by repeated blows from a professional proves that the topic hits the nail on the head..........as for the personal rant.........like some one once said, if the Indians were Chocolate, they would eat themselves. !!!
 

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