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Former Indian Ambassador thrashed by Russian female Anchor. Must Watch

@Joe Shearer @MilSpec @Oscar

Aren't we arguing about the wrong thing here? The questions raised by the anchor revolve around the justification and legality of the Indian strikes in Balakot. India's official position is that these were 'preemptive non-military strikes', that India had evidence that terrorist attacks (against India) were being planned in this location.

My question is, has India officially communicated with Pakistan about preempting alleged terrorist attacks in the past and what were the results? Did India share her information about the alleged terrorist attacks being plotted against her in Balakot with Pakistan and what was Pakistan's response?

India has had her fingers burnt on numerous occasions. The case of 26/11 did not move forward and its perpetrators roam free. India took the unprecedented step of allowing Pak investigators into a military camp in Uri. Again, no traction. While I am anti Modi and Modi might have had some domestic compulsions which resulted in this decision. I am glad he did it. Someone needed to do it. I understand Pak's domestic compulsions also demanded a response and Pak responded. But the point was made - another crisis and India will do the same. And they will deal with the inadvertent Pak response. I am assuming this would make the likes of JeM and LeT reconsider their options.
 
India has had her fingers burnt on numerous occasions. The case of 26/11 did not move forward and its perpetrators roam free. India took the unprecedented step of allowing Pak investigators into a military camp in Uri. Again, no traction. While I am anti Modi and Modi might have had some domestic compulsions which resulted in this decision. I am glad he did it. Someone needed to do it. I understand Pak's domestic compulsions also demanded a response and Pak responded. But the point was made - another crisis and India will do the same. And they will deal with the inadvertent Pak response. I am assuming this would make the likes of JeM and LeT reconsider their options.
Preemption is different from investigations after an attack. Typically the perpetrators involved in attacks (Such as Mumbai or Uri) die during the attacks or are arrested (Kasab in the case of the Mumbai attacks). With respect to LeT, I'd argue that Pakistan's containment of LeT has been effective given that LeT has not carried out any attacks since the Mumbai attacks.

Even the attacks that the LeT was alleged to have been plotting (embassies in Bangladesh) did not come to fruition, either because the allegations were suspect or because the warning allowed Pakistan to take action that prevented LeT from moving forward with those plans.

So when it comes to preemption, which is India's official justification for the Balakot attacks, I would argue that Pakistan has not demonstrated behavior that would preclude India engaging with her on preempting terrorist attacks.
 
Preemption is different from investigations after an attack. Typically the perpetrators involved in attacks (Such as Mumbai or Uri) die during the attacks or are arrested (Kasab in the case of the Mumbai attacks). With respect to LeT, I'd argue that Pakistan's containment of LeT has been effective given that LeT has not carried out any attacks since the Mumbai attacks.

Even the attacks that the LeT was alleged to have been plotting (embassies in Bangladesh) did not come to fruition, either because the allegations were suspect or because the warning allowed Pakistan to take action that prevented LeT from moving forward with those plans.

So when it comes to preemption, which is India's official justification for the Balakot attacks, I would argue that Pakistan has not demonstrated behavior that would preclude India engaging with her on preempting terrorist attacks.
I take your point that LeT may have been reined in since. But there has been no major criminal case as such. Either way, it bothers a lot of us. Maybe Pak did a lot under the radar to stop such organization and does not want to air its actions fearing a domestic backlash. Or there is only so much they can do without inviting chaos or blowback. But that does not solve India's woes either.
 
But that's the point being made by the anchor - that India did not have legal justification for the Balakot strikes, especially if, as it appears, India has never made an attempt to actually engage Pakistan in preempting strikes that India had information on. Even the US obtained UN authorization for the invasion of Afghanistan, and was severely criticized for its invasion of Iraq without UN authorization.

You can't argue that Pakistan would not have assisted in preempting the strikes when India never engaged Pakistan on the issue. Secondly, there are plenty of residents around that area as well as Madrassa students (some of whom might be militants but you can't guarantee that they were all militants) - merely pointing out the presence of '300 distinct SIM cards' suggests nothing other than that 300 residents of the village and madrassa had cell phones.

You are perfectly right in asserting that the UN did not take cognisance of the present instance and that Pakistan was not engaged in seeking pre-emptive strikes. An Indian response might be - it is not necessarily mine, as I differ substantially from the way the present government is conducting itself, and the context within which its conduct is framed - that having failed to obtain action post facto, what could be the possibility of obtaining action a priori? I had pointed this out; you may be right in saying that the UN should have validated this, but there too, China has steadfastly refused even the first step in a war on terror by shielding major perpetrators. So what options did India have with the UN?

Preemption is different from investigations after an attack. Typically the perpetrators involved in attacks (Such as Mumbai or Uri) die during the attacks or are arrested (Kasab in the case of the Mumbai attacks). With respect to LeT, I'd argue that Pakistan's containment of LeT has been effective given that LeT has not carried out any attacks since the Mumbai attacks.

Is it seriously your argument that containment is sufficient, and nothing further needs to be done, certainly not in respect of the planners, guides and sources of motivation, and far from addressing the state agencies who were the true inspiration?

So Hafiz Saeed is 'contained' and that allows for hands to be washed and consciences cleansed, while other groups, known all along, and brought to prime attention with the containment of the others, continue to murder and to maim?

It is an interesting proposition.

Even the attacks that the LeT was alleged to have been plotting (embassies in Bangladesh) did not come to fruition, either because the allegations were suspect or because the warning allowed Pakistan to take action that prevented LeT from moving forward with those plans.

Indeed, both are possible, and the implication would then be that action is proven by non-occurrence, rather than by evidence.

So when it comes to preemption, which is India's official justification for the Balakot attacks, I would argue that Pakistan has not demonstrated behavior that would preclude India engaging with her on preempting terrorist attacks.

Subsequent to Mumbai, there was the attack on Parliament, the attack on the Army camp by Fedayeen, and the attack on our airbase. In one case, the Pakistani agencies were actually given a detailed guided tour of a highly sensitive location. It seems to be that whatever is done by India, Pakistan discovers a further boundary that is found to be the true boundary for agreement on mutual action, until that new boundary is itself reached. Rather on the lines of Herakles and the tortoise.

It is difficult for ordinary Indians (for instance, me) to take seriously assertions by Pakistan that all these attacks took place with no involvement by the Pakistan authorities, even as the initial insertion of every single individual from the other side is usually covered by brisk firing by Pakistani border guards. Even as evidence has been provided in ample measure, and either deflected or denied, or even suffered the indignity of being taken to court and roundly dismissed by the judges as unworthy of further action, in the absence of any effort by the Pakistani prosecution to make even a cursory effort at confirming or supporting the evidence.

India has had her fingers burnt on numerous occasions. The case of 26/11 did not move forward and its perpetrators roam free. India took the unprecedented step of allowing Pak investigators into a military camp in Uri. Again, no traction. While I am anti Modi and Modi might have had some domestic compulsions which resulted in this decision. I am glad he did it. Someone needed to do it. I understand Pak's domestic compulsions also demanded a response and Pak responded. But the point was made - another crisis and India will do the same. And they will deal with the inadvertent Pak response. I am assuming this would make the likes of JeM and LeT reconsider their options.

I agree with this position substantially.

Even as an opponent of Modi, the very fact that there is now a possibility of military retaliation or of pre-emptive action will serve to inform the rulers (not the hapless PM) that this is no longer an open and shut matter.

These columns are full of the most gratifying news. One fanboy after another has been in jubilation at the significantly increased aerial activity; several airbases have been mentioned in particular. Another informs us of the suffering of the guards along the LOC due to Indian artillery shelling. A third is convinced that Trafalgar has been fought once again, and won once again; all due to the sighting of a submarine periscope.

It is to be hoped that the situation will significantly correct itself as reality bites home, and as fuel and ammunition stocks steadily diminish. We are, after all, dealing with the context of denial of a $3.2 billion oil credit facility. If the sub-continent is lucky, this violent reaction to a violent reaction will come to nothing; a consummation devoutly to be wished.
 
.... I had pointed this out; you may be right in saying that the UN should have validated this, but there too, China has steadfastly refused even the first step in a war on terror by shielding major perpetrators. So what options did India have with the UN?

Sir, let me remind you that the same 'veto' has helped India prolong its occupation of J&K

In the late 1950's (and early 60's) the USSR effectively used "the veto" multiple times to avoid discussion (and a possible UN intervention) on Kashmir in the UNSC..... You should be the last ones (after Israel of course) to complain about the use of 'veto' in the UNSC.

As for 'other options', you can still provide 'substantial proof' (of Azhar's involvement in terrorist activities in India) to China and convince it to lift the 'technical hold' it has put on the resolution.... After all, China's position on this matter, unlike the position taken by your ally (i.e. the USSR) on Kashmir issue earlier on, is reasonable and justified.
 
It is to be hoped that the situation will significantly correct itself as reality bites home, and as fuel and ammunition stocks steadily diminish. We are, after all, dealing with the context of denial of a $3.2 billion oil credit facility. If the sub-continent is lucky, this violent reaction to a violent reaction will come to nothing; a consummation devoutly to be wished.
The violent reaction to a violent reaction will eventually come to nothing, but you are overestimating the impact of the UAE oil credit facility on the PAF & PA. If anything, given the IAF's poor maintenance record and shortage of pilots, the impact is going to be harder for the IAF than the PAF.
 
@Joe Shearer @MilSpec @Oscar

Aren't we arguing about the wrong thing here? The questions raised by the anchor revolve around the justification and legality of the Indian strikes in Balakot. India's official position is that these were 'preemptive non-military strikes', that India had evidence that terrorist attacks (against India) were being planned in this location.

My question is, has India officially communicated with Pakistan about preempting alleged terrorist attacks in the past and what were the results? Did India share her information about the alleged terrorist attacks being plotted against her in Balakot with Pakistan and what was Pakistan's response?

Sure, the former ambassador, like the previous statement of the foreign office stated these to be pre-emptive attacks on areas which have housed terrorists which are dubbed as freedomfighters/mujhahideens (holy warriors) by multiple administrations in Pakistan.

There is ample evidence of these assymentric assets dubbed mujhahideens being utilized by the state of Pakistan against both afghanistan and India in the past, to such fluidity that there identity with regular Pakistani Army is almost indistinguishable (read, 1947 seige of state of J&K, Operation Gibraltar , siege of kabul and kargil). In such circumstances, for India to act in self defense there cannot be evidence sharing with the organisation that itself is the perpetrator. When asymmetric assets are state owned assets as displayed by ISPR during Kargil, you are asking the victim to plead it's case to the perpetrator asking for punishing itself. That is just not possible, as we found out during kargil, Parliament attacks, 26/11, pathankot, etc. So India did not involve itself in the same old rhetoric based game where, Pakistani backed terror operatives conduct operations in India with weaponry sourced in pakistan, training acquired in pakistan, logistics supported by pakistan, infiltration organised by pakistan and post terror act, Pakistan washes it hands off claiming "non state actors", and laughs it off.

India did what it felt right knowing it would cause retaliotary strikes which India was prepared for, and hopefully going forward it would do the same instead of sending dossiers.
 
Is it seriously your argument that containment is sufficient, and nothing further needs to be done, certainly not in respect of the planners, guides and sources of motivation, and far from addressing the state agencies who were the true inspiration?

So Hafiz Saeed is 'contained' and that allows for hands to be washed and consciences cleansed, while other groups, known all along, and brought to prime attention with the containment of the others, continue to murder and to maim?

It is an interesting proposition.
I've mentioned this to you before - containment is not ideal, but it has been (given the domestic fight against the TTP and associated groups) the prudent approach for Pakistan to prevent the Kashmir focused groups from being co-opted by the TTP and opening another front. And with respect to the LeT it has worked.

As far as the other groups go, all the evidence that even Indian has put out in the public domain so far points to Pulwama being a local attack, with the only link to Pakistan being the name. The bomber was local, the explosives and vehicle were locally procured and the abettors appear to be local as well. You have argued that the expertise needed to construct a VBIED couldn't possibly be local, but as I pointed out before, IED and VBIED expertise long ago disseminated across the globe, especially after it was fine tuned in Iraq by Al Qaeda and affiliates against US and Iraqi forces. The use of a VBIED is no longer something so sophisticated that it MUST require some cross-LoC conspiracy and involvement of State agencies.

So with respect to the discussion, again, India has provided no evidence (outside of the JeM name being used) of any kind of material or technical support being provided from Pakistan to the Pulwama attackers. So yes, the UN would likely have rejected India's demand for authorization, if judged solely on the merits of the claim, whether China had a veto or not.

I'll bring up the point about Indian engagement on preemption again - we have no evidence that India has ever engaged with Pakistan and shared intelligence to preempt attacks, so to argue that India was 'forced to act the way it did in Balakot because of Pakistani intransigence' is a flawed argument. India never gave Pakistan a chance to demonstrate that it would act on actionable intelligence to preempt a terrorist attack. And what exactly did you expect to come of a 'guided tour of a sensitive military installation'? Would the Pakistani investigators suddenly discover some damning evidence against Azhar or Saeed just lying around that installation? You're a rational, logical poster - can you seriously argue that the 'guided tour' was anything other than a photo op?

Sure, the former ambassador, like the previous statement of the foreign office stated these to be pre-emptive attacks on areas which have housed terrorists which are dubbed as freedomfighters/mujhahideens (holy warriors) by multiple administrations in Pakistan.

There is ample evidence of these assymentric assets dubbed mujhahideens being utilized by the state of Pakistan against both afghanistan and India in the past, to such fluidity that there identity with regular Pakistani Army is almost indistinguishable. In such circumstances, for India to act in self defense there cannot be evidence sharing with the organisation that itself is the perpetrator. When asymmetric assets are state owned assets as displayed by ISPR during Kargil, you are asking the victim to plead it's case to the perpetrator asking for punishing itself. That is just not possible, as we found out during kargil, Parliament attacks, 26/11, pathankot, etc. So India did not involve itself in the same old rhetoric based game where, Pakistani backed terror operatives conduct operations in India with weaponry sourced in pakistan, training acquired in pakistan, logistics supported by pakistan, infiltration organised by pakistan and post terror act, Pakistan washes it hands off claiming "non state actors", and laughs it off.

India did what it felt right knowing it would cause retaliotary strikes which India was prepared for, and hopefully going forward it would do the same instead of sending dossiers.
Under international law, India's actions were illegal (which is the point the anchor was making). And as I've already pointed out, India never made an attempt to engage with Pakistan on sharing intelligence and evidence to preempt this attack, and as far as I know, has never done so in the past. So based on that, the Indian justification that Pakistan would not act to preempt has no basis.

India can continue to shooting down trees, crows and cows, and I suppose the PAF will continue shooting down Indian jets and capturing Indian pilots.
 
Under international law, India's actions were illegal (which is the point the anchor was making). And as I've already pointed out, India never made an attempt to engage with Pakistan on sharing intelligence and evidence to preempt this attack, and as far as I know, has never done so in the past. So based on that, the Indian justification that Pakistan would not act to preempt has no basis.

India can continue to shooting down trees, crows and cows, and I suppose the PAF will continue shooting down Indian jets and capturing Indian pilots.
And under international law, Pakistan is justified carrying out terror activities in India? If you can violate international laws to serve your tactical interests, India can respond to protect it's own.
 
And under international law, Pakistan is justified carrying out terror activities in India? If you can violate international laws to serve your tactical interests, India can respond to protect it's own.
Pakistan denies carrying out any terrorist attacks in India and, has clearly stated that it will act on actionable intelligence provided by India against any individuals or groups accused of plotting attacks.
 
And under international law, Pakistan is justified carrying out terror activities in India? If you can violate international laws to serve your tactical interests, India can respond to protect it's own.

What you need to realize is that unsubstantiated (Indian) allegations against Pakistan do NOT absolve India of liability for the violation of International Law.... It's really that simple
 
Pakistan denies carrying out any terrorist attacks in India and, has clearly stated that it will act on actionable intelligence provided by India against any individuals or groups accused of plotting attacks.
Pakistan denies a lot of things and then feigns ignorance. Like OBL living in its military garrison town. So Pak thinks at most it is responsible for omission, not commission. But this is a ridiculous argument. No country worth its salt even remotely condemned India for crossing the IB. And I think India wanted to make a point crossing the IB instead of just the LoC.

Did India violate Pak air space? Yea. But did it do it with the intention of occupying or capturing Pak land? Nope.
 
Sir, let me remind you that the same 'veto' has helped India prolong its occupation of J&K

In the late 1950's (and early 60's) the USSR effectively used "the veto" multiple times to avoid discussion (and a possible UN intervention) on Kashmir in the UNSC..... You should be the last ones (after Israel of course) to complain about the use of 'veto' in the UNSC.

As for 'other options', you can still provide 'substantial proof' (of Azhar's involvement in terrorist activities in India) to China and convince it to lift the 'technical hold' it has put on the resolution.... After all, China's position on this matter, unlike the position taken by your ally (i.e. the USSR) on Kashmir issue earlier on, is reasonable and justified.

Since when has it been a rule that we may not argue opposite sides when it suits the national interest? After all, Pakistan herself is a living illustration; after tearing apart the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan by raising the mujahedin against the Red Army, she found herself at the receiving end of TTP insurgency, and did not hesitate to complain about the exact same behaviour that she had displayed.

So if we argue against the Chinese veto, we will argue that the Soviet veto was to redress the balance of the western powers supporting their loyal servants in CENTO and SEATO; and, in anticipation of your mirroring that argument in the case of China, arguing that China was equally entitled to redress the balance by holding out stoutly for an isolated Pakistan, would you not be engaged under the same Rules of Engagement?

As far as options are concerned, all the information has been given to representatives of the PRC; they have undertaken to study the information. On every occasion, without any detailed explanation, they have merely obstructed any prohibitive action, and left it to the world to conclude what it might. Lack of evidence was certainly not the sticking point.

I agree that the position China has taken is most reasonable and justified - from the Pakistani point of view!

I've mentioned this to you before - containment is not ideal, but it has been (given the domestic fight against the TTP and associated groups) the prudent approach for Pakistan to prevent the Kashmir focused groups from being co-opted by the TTP and opening another front. And with respect to the LeT it has worked.

As far as the other groups go, all the evidence that even Indian has put out in the public domain so far points to Pulwama being a local attack, with the only link to Pakistan being the name. The bomber was local, the explosives and vehicle were locally procured and the abettors appear to be local as well. You have argued that the expertise needed to construct a VBIED couldn't possibly be local, but as I pointed out before, IED and VBIED expertise long ago disseminated across the globe, especially after it was fine tuned in Iraq by Al Qaeda and affiliates against US and Iraqi forces. The use of a VBIED is no longer something so sophisticated that it MUST require some cross-LoC conspiracy and involvement of State agencies.

So with respect to the discussion, again, India has provided no evidence (outside of the JeM name being used) of any kind of material or technical support being provided from Pakistan to the Pulwama attackers. So yes, the UN would likely have rejected India's demand for authorization, if judged solely on the merits of the claim, whether China had a veto or not.

I'll bring up the point about Indian engagement on preemption again - we have no evidence that India has ever engaged with Pakistan and shared intelligence to preempt attacks, so to argue that India was 'forced to act the way it did in Balakot because of Pakistani intransigence' is a flawed argument. India never gave Pakistan a chance to demonstrate that it would act on actionable intelligence to preempt a terrorist attack. And what exactly did you expect to come of a 'guided tour of a sensitive military installation'? Would the Pakistani investigators suddenly discover some damning evidence against Azhar or Saeed just lying around that installation? You're a rational, logical poster - can you seriously argue that the 'guided tour' was anything other than a photo op?

The small difference being, Sir, that it was the Pakistani side that provided a team to join the Indian team and visit the site. The point being made was that every request from the Pakistani side, including the somewhat extreme ones, was met; it did not help to come to any action by the Pakistani establishment.


Under international law, India's actions were illegal (which is the point the anchor was making). And as I've already pointed out, India never made an attempt to engage with Pakistan on sharing intelligence and evidence to preempt this attack, and as far as I know, has never done so in the past. So based on that, the Indian justification that Pakistan would not act to preempt has no basis.

Would not the uniform rejection of post-facto evidence, including evidence of the LeT involvement with Mumbai, lead to a reasonable conclusion that pre-emptive information would not result in any meaningful action? Merely stating that it was not offered an opportunity to brush everything given under the carpet hardly justifies the lack of pre-emptive information being given to Pakistan as a major lacuna.

India can continue to shooting down trees, crows and cows, and I suppose the PAF will continue shooting down Indian jets and capturing Indian pilots.

Let us draw a gentle veil over the entire matter of the second pilot and the second parachute, and the reportedly fatal mob assault on one unknown pilot. Pakistan already has a track record of manipulating evidence and of outright denial and I have quoted every example; it is difficult to believe that this leopard has shifted its spots onto its halo.
 
Pakistan denies carrying out any terrorist attacks in India and, has clearly stated that it will act on actionable intelligence provided by India against any individuals or groups accused of plotting attacks.
But you know that is completely false statement , given that your commissioned officers and soldiers participated in Kargil incursion, all the while your ISPR and Primeminister office parroted them being Non-State actors.
So Pakistan on record corroborated by the account of your own EX-PM and Ex-COAS and a multitude of ex military officers validate Pakistan's policy of utilizing non-state actor as state policy tools. How is that difficult to understand?

How is one to force Pakistan to implicate itself in court of law?
 

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