for PAF What a Mirage offeres that F-16/ JF 16 don't/ Can't/ Won't

[Irfan Baloch]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

60/70s era plane it

Is F-16 not also a 1970s era jet?

 

[Windjammer]

Is F-16 not also a 1970s era jet?

First Mirages were being inducted in the 60s while F-16s are still rolling off the production lines.

 

[CriticalThought]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

At its prime, the Mirage would provide top cover because of its excellent handling in the rarer air at high alti. Plus, it has a naturally low wing loading allowing it to be a good strike platform that can fly low, pitch up, release load and scramble. And for PAF, it comes with ROSE upgrades and it seems that in itself is a capability the PAF doesn't want to lose.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

I did tried with this thread:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/

 

[maximuswarrior]

At its prime, the Mirage would provide top cover because of its excellent handling in the rarer air at high alti. Plus, it has a naturally low wing loading allowing it to be a good strike platform that can fly low, pitch up, release load and scramble. And for PAF, it comes with ROSE upgrades and it seems that in itself is a capability the PAF doesn't want to lose.

It is all about the ROSE upgrade. Till this date this upgrade provides lethal capabilities.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

First Mirages were being inducted in the 60s while F-16s are still rolling off the production lines.

thanks Windy
for answering that for me . I was so bold out by that Think tank one liner that I felt sad that I will never be able to satisfy cynics


while righting this opener I took an understanding that posters here are well informed way better than I am
about what specific models and blocks and timeline I am referring to.

that they know I am talking about PAF Mirage 3 and 5s and when I say F-16s I am referring to MLU and Block 52s (not even original block 15s) that are light years ahead of our earlier blocks.
even if they were originally conceived many decades ago

I dont really want the discussion to derail on a match of eras of F-16 vs mirages in this thread and will like to revert back to original question

 

[Indus Pakistan]

First Mirages were being inducted in the 60s while F-16s are still rolling off the production lines.

True, that is testament to F-16 design's flexibility. But am not right to think F-16s seed was laid in late 1960s?

In the late 1960s, Boyd gathered a group of like-minded innovators who became known as the Fighter Mafia, and in 1969, they secured Department of Defense funding for General Dynamics and Northrop to study design concepts based on the theory.[16][17]

With the first F-16 flight taking place in 1974 and was in service with USAF in 1978 with PAF recieving F-16s by 1983?


Role Multirole Fighter, Air Superiority Fighter
National origin United States
Manufacturer General Dynamics
Lockheed Martin
First flight 20 January 1974 (unplanned)
2 February 1974 (official)

Introduction 17 August 1978
Status In service

First F-16 or YF-16 from 1975.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

At its prime, the Mirage would provide top cover because of its excellent handling in the rarer air at high alti. Plus, it has a naturally low wing loading allowing it to be a good strike platform that can fly low, pitch up, release load and scramble. And for PAF, it comes with ROSE upgrades and it seems that in itself is a capability the PAF doesn't want to lose.

so the Delta design and profile enabled performance at high altitude as well as low flying strike the design and engine together boosted the entire strike cycle
then you point out at its ROSE upgrade of its avionics and computer system through domestic and foreign suppliers.

moving to second part of my questions.the ultimately the time of unavoidable replacement and with what? if JF-17 why or why not? how much the delta design and its 2.2 Mac speed is a decider? which JF-17 cant address due to design difference and engine limitations

 

[MilSpec]

I invite you to commentary on 2 different platforms

different from their physical layout, capability (payolad, engine, performance, avionics) and mission

the Discussion is centered around Mirage , it will serve for few more years but knowing its a 60/70s era plane it will have to be retired despite its excellent service to date

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
did it change to dedicated strike role later?
what made it so special?
what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its its capability that comes with speed?

or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
When Procured was intended as a role defined back then as FIghter- Bomber, an older term that today has morphed into Multi-Role/Strike Aircraft (example few other a/c classified as Fighter-bombers back in the day were F-4 Phantom which now in retrospect is often refered to as Multi-Role). Fighter bomber was broad term back then just like multi-role is now. Like Mig29M is a classified as a mutirole a/c but remains a Air Sup platform with A2G capabilities, essentially a A2A plaform masquerading as multirole platform. Similarly Mirage III was more Strike and less of an Air Superiority fighter.

did it change to dedicated strike role later?
Role of aircraft depends on the fleet mix and the capability of the opponent. A Super tucano can be an air dominance fighter against a decimated taliban with no A/d, while a Mig 27 can be a risky strike platform to fly even against looming Rival Mig21. In case of PAF, it acquired F7PG's, and F16's (and FC1/Jf17 later) that completely made Air-to Air their role due to their nimbleness and agility that a mirage III could not compete with. Also with the adversary getting platforms like MKI, Mig29's and m2K, I would be rather more suitable to field more capable platforms of air superiority missions with Mirage III/5 as dedicated Strike element.

what made it so special?
Depends on how people view platforms, to me Atar 09 series of engines are a hell of a package. One of the first to incorporate titanium, extremely well-managed heat dissipation and it showed the world what a low maintenance engine should be like. Standing testament to which is the large numbers of mirage 3's 5's, F1, and etendards still in flying shape around the world. Even the M53 legendary ruggedness is derived best practices learned from the Atar 09 project.

what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
Depends on which airforce got it, good indication would be the configuration they bought, some of them opted out of the Pulse Dopp radar, pretty sure they weren't using it for air combat.


why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?
It's not. Both JF 17 and F16 have superior flight performance, better avionics, better targetting and are newer platforms.

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its capability that comes with speed?
It does not provide anything special with it's higher speed, Higher speeds are for a short burst of time. It's speed does not provide a greater advantage than a JF17.



or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).
no comment.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Mirage offer a plane for which we have full production and over haul platform, in essence it is as good as the JF17 Thunder program

The ability to freshen up the Mirage Birds is a great advantage as the planes are maintained near mint condition

F16 Unfortunately due to it requiring regular checkups and upgrades , is a hindrance , we have to fly it in limited missions to keep mileage low. Unless we can get a engine replacement whenever we want

At various demonstrations when ever a Mirage flies by or performs a trick it feels it has more aggressive thrust no different then any new generation planes. I would imagine beating a mirage in 1 vs 1 Dog fight is not an easy task flying wise it is good as any plane and under right pilot is deadly

Mirages flown by Pakistani pilots have also shown great capability in low altitude flying

I feel with Arrival of the JF17 Block III , the technological difference would certainly be in favor of the modern JF17 Block III


Project Azm's Rise will eventually lead to a full fledged departure from Mirage Platform
but if Pakistan had the Technology to manufacture the body of the Mirage it was technically possible that we would have created our own Mirage Variant 100% Locally with New Avionics


J10D could serve as a proper replacement for Mirage being also a delta Wing Fighter


The biggest draw back for Pakistan for Mirage Jets is perhaps that we never got ability to make brand new Body fuselage , so we have to buy older ones , have them go thru the overhaul practice and recover what we can

In Present age 2019 , with China's help we could get the technology to replicate Mirage's core body elements but then it raises questions why bother ???

We can just get a J10D platform, the new thrust vectoring engine would give us a capability we never had before plus we will get all the delta wing benefits with J10D platform


The one question I always had was , CAN WE if we wanted make a brand new Mirage !!! not just a rebuild "MIRAGE V, NG"


Specs would be

• Advance Avionics with Helmet Based Targeting
• New Engine from China
• AESA radar
• Large Digital Display for Pilot

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I did tried with this thread:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-xx-strike-fighter.614286/

its a good read, very nice work there.
your proposal for a modified JF-17 with a better engine and redesign was discussed.
a delta wing gives certain advantages in a strike role. Mirages ROSE upgrade increased the longevity of the Mirage fleet

when PAF got Mirages originally what was their role?
When Procured was intended as a role defined back then as FIghter- Bomber, an older term that today has morphed into Multi-Role/Strike Aircraft (example few other a/c classified as Fighter-bombers back in the day were F-4 Phantom which now in retrospect is often refered to as Multi-Role). Fighter bomber was broad term back then just like multi-role is now. Like Mig29M is a classified as a mutirole a/c but remains a Air Sup platform with A2G capabilities, essentially a A2A plaform masquerading as multirole platform. Similarly Mirage III was more Strike and less of an Air Superiority fighter.

did it change to dedicated strike role later?
Role of aircraft depends on the fleet mix and the capability of the opponent. A Super tucano can be an air dominance fighter against a decimated taliban with no A/d, while a Mig 27 can be a risky strike platform to fly even against looming Rival Mig21. In case of PAF, it acquired F7PG's, and F16's (and FC1/Jf17 later) that completely made Air-to Air their role due to their nimbleness and agility that a mirage III could not compete with. Also with the adversary getting platforms like MKI, Mig29's and m2K, I would be rather more suitable to field more capable platforms of air superiority missions with Mirage III/5 as dedicated Strike element.

what made it so special?
Depends on how people view platforms, to me Atar 09 series of engines are a hell of a package. One of the first to incorporate titanium, extremely well-managed heat dissipation and it showed the world what a low maintenance engine should be like. Standing testament to which is the large numbers of mirage 3's 5's, F1, and etendards still in flying shape around the world. Even the M53 legendary ruggedness is derived best practices learned from the Atar 09 project.

what other Airforces got them for multi role or strike role only?
Depends on which airforce got it, good indication would be the configuration they bought, some of them opted out of the Pulse Dopp radar, pretty sure they weren't using it for air combat.


why Mirage is fit for a strike role better than JF-17 or F-16?
It's not. Both JF 17 and F16 have superior flight performance, better avionics, better targetting and are newer platforms.

what will be a true representative of Mirage then? a modified JF-17 with some compromises and some additions?
would future blocks of JF-17 ever be able to match its capability that comes with speed?
It does not provide anything special with it's higher speed, Higher speeds are for a short burst of time. It's speed does not provide a greater advantage than a JF17.



or like for like replacement of Delta wing jet like Grippen or J-10? Mirage 2000 (their production stopped their spares maybe an issue).
no comment.

Adab sir
now this is really impressive thanks for going though the entire topic. your response is good mix for a beginer/ for a novice and avid aviation fan. Desault Mirage platforms are a class of their own Rafales really are the culmination of this design by the French

 

[Sine Nomine]

its a good read, very nice work there.
your proposal for a modified JF-17 with a better engine and redesign was discussed.
a delta wing gives certain advantages in a strike role. Mirages ROSE upgrade increased the longevity of the Mirage fleet

Sir i am just saying for new wing set and increased ground clearance.Delta wings would gave it required flight envelope, fuel storage and munitions carrying capability.It would be based on Jf-17b having same dorsel spine.
Mirage ROSE also has life,we are using turbo jet in age of tubofan,which takes a good chunck of fuel.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Sir i am just saying for new wing set and increased ground clearance.Delta wings would gave it required flight envelope, fuel storage and munitions carrying capability.It would be based on Jf-17b having same dorsel spine.
Mirage ROSE also has life,we are using turbo jet in age of tubofan,which takes a good chunck of fuel.

I agree, the question was raised about footing the R & D costs and the engine availability.
there is a ready made J10 available there or if we compromise on delta and give JF17 what it needs

you see, I was expecting someone will point at the America not having a delta wing fighter jets for that role

(but then again their stealth bombers F 117 and B2s are delta wing)

 

[Sine Nomine]

(but then again their stealth bombers F 117 and B2s are delta wing)

If i am not wrong,they are flying wings.

I agree, the question was raised about footing the R & D costs and the engine availability.
there is a ready made J10 available there or if we compromise on delta and give JF17 what it needs

Sir,it would use same engine and would use as much as from JFT,my idea was to cut cost.
Sir about J-10 or any 4th gen jet, i have given my opinion.

We are just going to use entire fuselage of JFTB/blk3 minus wings replaced by cranked arrow delta wings.Nothing new only related flight controls.