First Crusade : Discussion

[kobiraaz]

Aftermath Of People's Crusade: Sultan Kilij Arslan became more confident and started to undermine Crusaders which led to his defeat against skilled Crusader Army!!

 

[kobiraaz]

Princes' Crusade

The four main crusader armies left Europe around the appointed time in August 1096. They took different paths to Constantinople and gathered outside its city walls between November 1096 and April 1097. Hugh of Vermandois arrived first, followed by Godfrey, Raymond, and Bohemond.

The crusaders may have expected Alexios to become their leader, but he had no interest in joining them, and was mainly concerned with transporting them into Asia Minor as quickly as possible.

In return for food and supplies, Alexios requested the leaders to swear fealty to him and promise to return to the Byzantine Empire any land recovered from the Turks. Godfrey was the first to take the oath, and almost all the other leaders followed him.

 

[kobiraaz]

Siege of Nicaea

Sultan Kilij Arslan initially felt that the second wave of crusaders were not a threat. He left his family and his treasury behind in Nicaea and went east to fight the Danishmends for control of the Melitene.

The crusaders began to leave Constantinople at the end of April 1097. Godfrey of Bouillon was the first to arrive at Nicaea, with Bohemund of Taranto, Bohemond's nephew Tancred, Raymond IV of Toulouse, and Robert II of Flanders following him, along with Peter the Hermit and some of the survivors of the People's Crusade, and a small Byzantine force under Manuel Boutoumites.

On May 16, the Turkish defenders of Nicaea sallied out to attack the crusaders, but the Turks were defeated in a skirmish with the loss of 200 men. The Turks sent messages to Kilij Arslan begging him to return, and when he realized the strength of the crusaders he quickly turned back. An advance party was defeated by troops under Raymond and Robert of Flanders on May 20, and on May 21, the crusader army defeated Kilij in a pitched battle which lasted long into the night. Losses were heavy on both sides but in the end the Sultan retreated, despite the pleas of the Nicaean Turks.

Secret Negotiation Between Byzantine and Nicaea

byzantine emperor Alexius suspected that once the crusader capture Muslim city, they might never give it to him. . Alexius had instructed Boutoumites ( Byzantine general) to secretly negotiate the surrender of the city without the crusaders' knowledge. Tatikios was instructed to join with the crusaders and make a direct assault on the walls, while Boutoumites would pretend to do the same to make it look as if the Byzantines had captured the city in battle. Boutoumites sent an offer to nicaea they could hardly refuse - " surrender to us or we leave you to be slaughtered by the men in armor" .... As crusaders were about to launch final assault, they found the city had already surrendered to emperor Alexius. They felt betrayed!!

Boutoumites, however, was named dux of Nicaea and forbade the crusaders from entering Nicaea in groups larger than 10 men at a time

The crusaders had left Nicaea towards Jerusalem on June 26, with a deep distrust of the Byzantines.

 

[Slayer786]

How could a defender who is inside the wall, deprive the forces who are undertaking the siege outside the wall of food and water ? Can you explain ?

Read the history books. When the occupying army lays a siege, it does not have food and water for 8 months. It steals and plunders the villages, but the defenders always take whatever food they can from the villages and destroy the rest to deny the invading army. Then the defenders lock the gated of the city and wait it out, while requesting for reinforcement from their allies. This is what happened in Antioch, the defenders had enough food and water but the crusaders had run out of food and water months ago and were very thirsty and hungry which made them very angry. So when the traitor opened the gate in the dead of the night, the crusaders were able to enter and massacred all of the people muslims, christians and jews.

This traitor part is even mentioned in the west historians books so do some research first and then comment.

There are more crusades later on. Ultimately the muslims triumph over the crusaders. but that is later on.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Logistics was the main problem for the crusader army,and the second being no effective counter to the horse archers since they didn't have skilled long range footbows in numbers nor field artillery in mass like ballistas or scorpions.
Just a century later[1241] the mongol hordes would teach the germanic,polish and hungarian knights a lesson in this tactical inflexibility at mohi and leignitz where the knights were completely routed by subutai and jube.

 

[kobiraaz]

Battle of Dorylaeum (1097)

Date : July 1, 1097

Location Dorylaeum

Belligerents : Crusaders Vs Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm

Key Figure
Crusader - Bohemond of Taranto , Godfrey of Bouillon, Adhemar of Le Puy
Turks - Kilij Arslan I, Ghazi ibn Danishmend

Strength
Crusader: : Bohemund (vanguard):~10,000 to 20,000
Main force: 30,000
Turks: 6,000-8,000

Result : Crusader victory Losses for the victors (4,000) were higher than for the defeated Turks (3,000).

Godfrey depicted with Bohemond, Raymond IV of Toulouse,

The Battle of Dorylaeum

Aftermath

The Turks fled and Arslan turned to other concerns in his eastern territory. On the other hand the crusaders were allowed to march virtually unopposed through Anatolia on their way to Antioch.but the journey was unpleasant, as Arslan had burned and destroyed everything he left behind on his retreat.

The Battle of Dorylaeum by Gustave Dore

Reason of Turkish Defeat: Horse mounted Archers failed to pierce Knight Armors though foot soldiers suffered heavy casualty against Turks.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

While we are talking about Turks, Crusades stopped Turkish westwards advance for the following 100 years. Till 1176, western provinces of Anatolia remained at the hands of Byzantine. While Armenians maintained independent Kingdom in "Armenia Minor".

Battle of Myriokephalon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1390's Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia was conquered by Mamluks. In 1403, Tamerlane conquered Smyrna, the last stronghold of Christinas in Anatolia, and decapitated every Christian.

Just a century later[1241] the mongol hordes would teach the germanic,polish and hungarian knights a lesson in this tactical inflexibility at mohi and leignitz where the knights were completely routed by subutai and jube.

Off topic, Jebe wasnt in the army during the campaign of 1236-43. The campaign in which they were waging war against Rus, Magyar, Poles, Bulgars. Jebe was sent by Ogedei Khan to punish Chinese people at that time. I have searched sources to find Jebe's importance in the conquest of Europe. Found nothing. I am not sure whether he crossed Caucasus (or Ural mountains) to the west. In both campaign 1223 and 1236.

 

[Riea]

When we reach to " Salahdin " vs Crusaders- wake me up-

dude saladin fought in that THIRD crusade and battles that preceded that, not the first crusade. Inaddition some credit should also go to sultan Baibars he was the lion,the champion of muslims during the crusades but unfortunately most of us don't even know whether a personality like this existed or not.

 

[SherAli]

The Crusades: A 200 year long murderous campaign of death, destruction, bigotry, attempted genocide by the inferior continent of Europe against the Muslims of the near east. Ended in the complete humiliation of the assailants who pumped out army after army only to witness crushing and embarrassing defeats in succession of each other.

The Muslims were triumphant even when being surrounded by both crusader armies and the Mongol invaders (who were a far greater threat than the pathetic armies from europe) simultaneously

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

What was the prime motive for these crusades ?

 

[INDIC]

What was the prime motive for these crusades ?

Control of Jerusalem(Holy Land) and to stop the advancing Turks in Christian world.

 

[Alienoz_TR]

What was the prime motive for these crusades ?

Muslim advances of Both Umayyads of Spain and Seljuks of Rum caused panic in papal state. Many people do not care about western wing of Islamic expansion. Umayyads lost the war in the Iberian peninsula. We are focused on the wars in the Levatine lands.

 

[INDIC]

Muslim advances of Both Umayyads of Spain and Seljuks of Rum caused panic in papal state. Many people do not care about western wing of Islamic expansion. Umayyads lost the war in the Iberian peninsula. We are focused on the wars in the Levatine lands.

As far I know Reconquesta in Spain is not called Crusade.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Control of Jerusalem(Holy Land) and to stop the advancing Turks in Christian world.

And todays Jews and Muslims are fighting over Jerusalem . Christians not interested anymore ? Why ?

 

[Alienoz_TR]

As far I know Reconquesta in Spain is not called Crusade.

Yep. But Almohads and Almoravids fought paralel in Iberia while crusades were going on in the east. It escapes many eyes that interested in the field.